Proposal for a *DAMN Battle League Finals Tournament

[Toxic::Joka]

Sounds cool.

[crypt]

I don't agree, simply because mostly seeds above 6 or so could have gotten there with just 1-2 measly cb's, maybe if you HAD to play at minimum 8 cbs or 10 to get in.

[alaric]

I don't agree, simply because mostly seeds above 6 or so could have gotten there with just 1-2 measly cb's, maybe if you HAD to play at minimum 8 cbs or 10 to get in.

Maybe if you had read before you wrote....

"2. Any clan which is recorded as having played a minimum of four CBs during the regular season is eligible to play in the finals tournament. Eligibility of players is according to the standard *DAMN Battle League rules."

Of course, this number could be set higher, but we figured that 4 seemed like a nice round number given the RvS numbers last season. I suppose you could tailor it to each ladder too, to better reflect that ladder's needs.

[crypt]

Sorry, I got lazy yesterday, but lets get back on topic now.

Ty for clarifying that without flaming me, alaric. I now agree with the whole single elimination "elite eight" thing.

[c| Pyroman]

thoughts on a sunday morning:

? will the observing admins add any lag to the server?  some hosts/matches this is more of an issue than others, but i don't know the technology well enough to answer.  i assume that all admins will be required to be premium users, or else how will they be able to use non-gameranger in game voice software?  

? any thoughts on re-seeding after each round. in other words, after each round, re-seed the matchups so the top survivng clan faces the bottom surviving clan and so on.  that would place a premium on the final rankings from the regular season because the road to the finals for lower ranked clans will be harder; they will always be facing higher ranked clans.  it would also mean that disruptions due to forfeits, disqualifications, etc. would be minimized.  for example, without re-seeding, the lowest surving clan could get a pass to the next round because the highest survivor defaulted.  with re-seeding, the pass would go to the next highest surviving clan, and the lowest clan would face the next highest after that.

? i am somewhat concerned that with this number of clans in the post-season, cb'ing will be a HUGE time committment during that time.  there needs to be a balance between the ladder and real life.  for example, those of us who are old enough to have jobs/families know how hard it is to allocate 4 hours of weekend daylight to video gaming, let alone doing it for multpile rounds.  perhaps others disagree.

good to see some creative thinking form the community.

[Scrach]

I like the idea but an Idea I like better is for some how to host a tounament for the winnners of several DIFFERENT battle leagues.  It would be cool to see how us mac gammers stack up to a PC clan.  Also if it was orginized by *Damn it would give it lots of publicity and we could show thoes PC people whos boss.   just an idea.

[c| King.of.Pop]

I agree pyro.  I think that many cb's is a bit too ambitious fellas, and that in itself could cause more headaches.  We're on the right track with the way it is now, some refinements are needed is all.  Plus, there just arent that many clans around.  The way its looking now there arent going to be more than say 8 or 10 really active clans up for continuous playing and cbing during the regular season.

Kingo

[Brain]

points i noticed as i skimmed the replies replied to in no particular order(sorry if i missed one, it's rather late)

1. server lag: this one depends on  many things, but if you are already hosting 8 people with minimal problems, than the extra 2 probably wont make that much of a difference because all they will be doing is watching the game from specified wiewpoints. since they are not actualy interacting with the game (moving actors, shooting bullets, throwing frags and the like) the added server load should be minimal.  that said, everybody's host is different so it's impossible to tell for sure

2. reseeding: there are no plans currently to include reseeding in this bracket. if toy're the 16'th seed and number 1 doesn't show, there is no reason that the number 2 clan should get to steal your luck

3. the number of cb's: while the actual volume of cb's is high, the number of cb's per clan per day is still only one. it has been suggested earlier in this thread that there be a week between the end of the season and the the finals for the purposes of scheduling the necessary cb's

4. lack of clans:  if ther3 are only 8 active clans and they all meet the minimum requirements to be in the ladder i say great. i do not have a problem if everyone ends up in the finals, it just means that the regular season was used as a way to determine seed order

5. cross platform ladders: great idea in theory, but that would not work for raven shield due to network code incompatability

[c| Splinter]

it should definitely not replace the current WORKING system in my opinion.

lol, you think the current system actually works?

anywho...i think this is a great idea.  I do think reseeding should be looked at closer though.  Without reseeding, the emphasis on doing well in the regular season is minimized.  If you get the #1 spot going in, it only benefits you for the first round, after that it's a crap shoot.  I think Pyro is suggesting a reseeding system like in the NFL playoffs (without the wildcards and 1st week bye's  though).  It makes you really want to shoot for the higher spots in the main season.  Otherwise people will just be trying to get into the last spots, and won't be concerned with excelling in the main season.  And with a relatively small amount of clans competing, it'll be relatively easy to get one of those spots, so what's the motivation to play well in the main season?

otherwise, great idea.  seems like common sense to me, and it amazes me that somehow this have never been implemented before.

[alaric]

Responses to various points also in no particular order:

1. The volume of cbs the first day will be impressive, but remember that each clan only plays one cb that day. No more than the current finals system. Each weekend, each clan will only play 2 cbs. One per day. I don't think that's unreasonable.

2. Reseeding the ladder would make things needlessly complex. It's going to be a challenge to schedule all the cbs as it is, adding the need to reschedule on the fly would be foolish. Also, enough weight has been given to the ladder rankings already. Priority seeding, byes, etc.

One of the things that will make this tournament exciting is the prospect that ANYONE could feasibly win. And for that to happen we can't give too much weight to the high ranking positions on the ladder. The high ranked clans shouldn't really have trouble knocking out the low ranked clans anyway, they were, after all, able to beat the crap out of them during the season to gain that coveted high ranking spot.

3. As for the number of clans competing being too small for a tournament format like this: Yes, the RvS ladder is currently small. But it will grow. Just look at the GhR ladder, 18 active teams this last season. And hopefully that number will rise in each ladder. A more open finals system would likely encourage more clans to particpate making the ladder more enjoyable for all.

[spike]

I like it. Its proven to make sense and work with everything from NCAA tournament to my schools bowling tournament. I would rather have a tourny where it was possible for a not to good clan to go on a tear and have a cinderella story and win, rather than utter domination by one clan. Upsets are fun(tho not if you're being upset, which I suppose is what many people are worrying about). It makes for a more fun all around tournament, with more active particapation by outside viewers(picking your fav clan, betting over paypal that sort of thing.)

[crypt]

If you saw this year's NCAA Tournament, then you would know that upsets are what make it so good, in addition to what Snipe said, I think this route is the best way to go with the single elimination tourney, but what about a losers bracket in semi-finals? Also we should have different badges (Runner-up, 3rd, 4th place). It would make the whole atmosphere better overall.

[cO.Vickedson]

I think this is a great idea.  I think it's absolute bullshit that only 4 clans in each ladder make it to the finals and then those clans have the hardest time in the world getting these stupid cb's played.

Also, this would tear into the "ladder experts", those who know how to control the points gained and lost so well based on who and when you cb someone and bring their clans to the top.  I appreciate you math wizards out there who can squeek up into the top 4 but it would absolutely rock if all of us were given a chance barring our dumb cb choices once in a while...

As far as the point of a clan's "skill" being brought up earlier by someone...  I agree.  Our clan beat multiple finals participants last season so we all know "upsets" will occur.  But how cool would it be to check the bracket on "Super Saturday" and see who beat whom?  It'd be just like Danny and the Miracles back in '88...

[Scrach]

Maybe if we can get a lot of clans we can get differen't leagues just like the NCAA.  Then the winner of each league can play in a tourney.  There may not be enough dedicated clans though.

[z][t-Rampage]

Great idea!

one of the things i like about the football league(soccer) i'm in, is when the season is over we end up in finals against the 3 top teams in the other 4 groups.
So i will add - i like the way champions league is set up, except this will have one match between each team. exciting!

But i do wonder if it will be too time consuming? will we end up with a huge headache from making sure we have an admin, making sure that teams can make it...like we have had problems in the finals w before. are there ways that we can "make sure" that it will move right along? it would be great to see something like this happen. i would just hate to see it getting messy when the finals arrive.

But all in all i'm for it.

(whispers* Aramarth, i was one of those opposed to WZ...how wrong was i :-)

proud to be z][t-Rampage

[[one] Gambit]

Great idea. MP does it again. This makes it easier and faster and includes more people. If the proper allowances can be made in the scheduling to allow for the inevitable intercontinental problems, I think it's about time we establish a little rigidity to the BL scheduling structure. If people would be willing to look at this more as a recreational competitive league (like a soccer or softball league) rather than 'something to do when nothing else is happening,' situations like we've had to deal with several times in the last few seasons would never come up.

I know I have a softball game on Saturday at noon. I do not opt to make plans with friends because I think it will be more fun. If I get a job, then I go to work and a sub takes my place or my team plays shorthanded or we take a forfeit. Period. I don't call the league office and tell them I need to reschedule our team's game.

I especially like the idea of issuing a 'tournament list of maps' at the beginning of the season. This is a great way to get everyone to learn more maps. With the exception of painfully buggy maps (like De Dust). There is no reason NOT to use more of the maps available. And we'd have the whole season to practice on them.

I am looking forward to the catfight in the admin section over map selection... should be fun!

[Mr. Lothario]

     According to Mauti's announcement, season VIII will open on 29 April. Here in California, that means we have just under 11 days left. If the Finals Tournament is implemented, the admins will need time before the season begins to select the tournament maps. I don't mean to be pushy, but here's me pushing: we've had enough time for all interested parties to read and reply if they chose, and heard almost unanimous approval in the replies. To me, that says that everyone likes the idea. So, I'd like to hear word from On High regarding whether Season VIII will use this system for the finals or not.

[Civrock]

i don't think it's realizable for season VIII already...

if we implement this Finals Tournament... we should let Mauti and Elandrion the time to develope the script... and we, the admins, need most probably more time than 11 days to discuss about all necessary things... i think.

we should not push this Finals Tournament before all things are clear... and discussed (like map selection by admins etc).

i'd say we introduce it for season IX... and have all necessary ready.

[crypt]

Something needs to be done with the finals, the current structure is bad and not a good idea.

[Ssickboy]

Let's not wait. I say, make it happen for 8 or not at all.  Push Push.  Do we need a perfect script written in order to use it for the first season?  No reason to wait.  nothing to lose.