ADMIN Ruling on BTs & -MP5- FINAL RULING

[|MP|Buccaneer]

See bucc i think thats where you made your ruling and thats where i think your wrong...

Eight, you can think I'm wrong all you want, but just be sure of two things.

1) I wasn't "wrong" alone.  Many of us felt the same way.

2) You wanted very bad a system where your peers made these decisions.  But you can't seem to live with it now that it's happened.

THAT MY FRIEND IS WHAT YOU DONT UNDERSTAND. WE NEVER REFUSED... only to the extention...

And that my friend is why you got the ban, because you did refuse, the extension.  I do understand what you are saying about Sunday night, and we've been around and around about it.  I don't agree with you.  Other's don't agree with you.  It's not as simple as just Sunday night to me.

Not agreeing with you doesn't mean I don't understand, it means I see it differently Eight.  Time for you to grow up and understand that.

[BTs_FahQ2]

In following of all convo's since Sunday I believe I can offer a summation.  Nobody is arguing about the same points of a heated and multi-faceted problem.

I think all the personal attacks and vendettas should be just dropped and such.  This of all sorts is petty in a place for a game and a gaming league.  I ask both sides to just drop it, it will get us no farther than a flat tire, and besides, do you really think you will change someones opinion.

As for the the forementioned problems throughout this whole thread and the other ones.  Just can I personally get one answer as to what happened with Sunday.  I can't get past this and my clan can't either.  What everyone fails to realize is that no matter what occured on Saturday, be it my fault, kermits fault, or if the sun didn't rise of the right side of the ocean, what happened to Sunday.

We arrived and stayed All day (argumentably, some of the day, and in some places not even part of the weekend).  The cb's ended because one side felt they had something to do, and noted, without explanation.  I didn't wait the entire weekend to play these games, and I was a late entry, but can you understand why those who did wait all weekend to play a few games are pissed?  They wasted two days and one of these shouldn't have been.

So the ruling comes back well, they logged off, and saturday you messed up.  But nobody to this minute has explained why we should accept a ruling with no real argument as to why we wasted our Sunday.  If you had to waste a whole day I think you too wouldbe pissed.  In addition, nothing was ever said to MP5 about this, just about how both clans messed up Saturday.  BUT WHAT ABOUT SUNDAY.  We had nothing to do about this day other than to show up and play.  Besides this, they left Sunday without a verification that we would continue to play the games at a later date.

We asked for the forfeiture in that the rules stated certain things, by certain times.  Be it harsh, this is actually what is stated.  Now I personally feel the flames affected reason and I am sad to see them from my clan and others. Without it I think things would have gone drastically different.  But in saying that, you then had to make a decision based on feelings and not facts.  Now ignoring feelings and everything else going crazy in here, were we in the wrong? Was it truly wrong for us to pay a penalty for something we didn't do? This is the basis of our argument.  

If the rest of the games had been played Sunday this whole retardation would of never occured, and they all stem from them logging off.  This is also the main factor for us being pissed.  It stems from actions that were out of our control, we can't make them come back on-line when they leave.  Is this so hard to get?

I just want a straight answer based on the facts, if you dispute anything here, please let me know.  But since the beggining, this is all I have asked for.  And the other posts I think have ruined a chance for this to be answered.

Please no more posts and just a few that try to hit these topics.

I thank you

[onwig]

yeah i apologise, i should have read all of it.... you need a forum bot to answer the questions

[static]

DBL members, Admins and BTs brothers,

I would like to take this time to apologize for actions.  I in no way did I intend this to go as far as it has.  I was only trying to piont out the infractions BTs and MP5 made.  I for one am young at heart but as an adult should not fight over these petty situations.  With this in mind, I will remove myself from posting in the forums.


BTs_static, down and out for the count

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Hello Everyone!

Wow, where have I been all day....GhostSniper in the house.....

I have a favor to ask of all of the Battle League Admins (except for Harvey and Bucc...):

Would you all (the admins, that is) PM me with your home address?  I have a little present for all of you.

Thanks,

-GhostSniper Out.

P.S.  I realize that BTs is banned from the Season VIII Ladders, but does that include the 1v1 Ladders?  Cause I don't know about anybody else, but I will be royally pissed I gave Mauti $100 to be a *DAMN Supporter and not be able to play in the 1v1 Ghost Recon ladder when it comes out.  Also, does this ban include in any way posting on the forums?  Cause I am a bit of a forum whore and all.

Ghostsniper, check your PM's. I have already warned you once by PM about personal threats. Take this as your second. And you dont get a third. Personal threats be it a joke or not are not condoned around here - VooDoo

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Onwig, no need to apologize.  My reply sounded harsher than I meant it.  

So the ruling comes back well, they logged off, and saturday you messed up.  But nobody to this minute has explained why we should accept a ruling with no real argument as to why we wasted our Sunday.

Ok, I just went back and deleted a long post covering things from how you guys wasted hours after you were told, and that was your own fault, to how when I asked you clan why it wouldn't CB earlier when MP5 wanted to, you guys wouldn't answer me.

But none of that matters, once I look at it.  It's not really going to solve anything.  Here's what I think will.  You can agree with the decision or not, but here's what it came down to for me.

No matter how many times you say it, I can't ignore everything else and just limit myself to looking at just Sunday night.  To be fair, I have to look at the whole weekend, the whole round of the playoffs.  That includes Sunday day, that includes Saturday.  

I'm speaking strictly for myself here, nobody else.  But both clans failed miserably here.  There was a complete and total lack of anything near good sportsmanship from either.  For me, most of the blame is directed at the leaders of both clans 1) not getting along in the first place 2) not willing to actually talk to each other.  They both had quick tempers, both liked to yell more than they listen.  

Both clans absolutely fucked this up in my opinion.  Not one, but both.  Not in the same ways, but they both did.  

When we talked about it, we saw that both clans were in the wrong.  That being the case, we wanted the CB's played, not a ruling, but actually playing the game, you know, how it's meant to be done.  

So we asked, I asked, I practically begged, for the clans to work out a solution.  Eight wouldn't budge.  So it was left to us to force a decision.  And the rest you know.

Now, again, I know to many of you it's all about Sunday night.  That is the only thing you are concerned with, and that you think you should be judged by.  All I can say is that is exactly not how I see it.  I'll let other Admins speak for themselves, but it's obvious that it's not the black and white to us, that you seem to think it is FahQ2.

[BTs_FahQ2]

Goddammit, ignore those posts and their lack of anything.

please:

In following of all convo's since Sunday I believe I can offer a summation.? Nobody is arguing about the same points of a heated and multi-faceted problem.

I think all the personal attacks and vendettas should be just dropped and such.? This of all sorts is petty in a place for a game and a gaming league.? I ask both sides to just drop it, it will get us no farther than a flat tire, and besides, do you really think you will change someones opinion.

As for the the forementioned problems throughout this whole thread and the other ones.? Just can I personally get one answer as to what happened with Sunday.? I can't get past this and my clan can't either.? What everyone fails to realize is that no matter what occured on Saturday, be it my fault, kermits fault, or if the sun didn't rise of the right side of the ocean, what happened to Sunday.

We arrived and stayed All day (argumentably, some of the day, and in some places not even part of the weekend).? The cb's ended because one side felt they had something to do, and noted, without explanation.? I didn't wait the entire weekend to play these games, and I was a late entry, but can you understand why those who did wait all weekend to play a few games are pissed?? They wasted two days and one of these shouldn't have been.

So the ruling comes back well, they logged off, and saturday you messed up.? But nobody to this minute has explained why we should accept a ruling with no real argument as to why we wasted our Sunday.? If you had to waste a whole day I think you too wouldbe pissed.? In addition, nothing was ever said to MP5 about this, just about how both clans messed up Saturday.? BUT WHAT ABOUT SUNDAY.? We had nothing to do about this day other than to show up and play.? Besides this, they left Sunday without a verification that we would continue to play the games at a later date.

We asked for the forfeiture in that the rules stated certain things, by certain times.? Be it harsh, this is actually what is stated.? Now I personally feel the flames affected reason and I am sad to see them from my clan and others. Without it I think things would have gone drastically different.? But in saying that, you then had to make a decision based on feelings and not facts.? Now ignoring feelings and everything else going crazy in here, were we in the wrong? Was it truly wrong for us to pay a penalty for something we didn't do? This is the basis of our argument.?

If the rest of the games had been played Sunday this whole retardation would of never occured, and they all stem from them logging off.? This is also the main factor for us being pissed.? It stems from actions that were out of our control, we can't make them come back on-line when they leave.? Is this so hard to get?

I just want a straight answer based on the facts, if you dispute anything here, please let me know.? But since the beggining, this is all I have asked for.? And the other posts I think have ruined a chance for this to be answered.

Please no more posts and just a few that try to hit these topics.

I thank you                                                                                

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I have a favor to ask of all of the Battle League Admins (except for Harvey and Bucc...):

Would you all (the admins, that is) PM me with your home address?  I have a little present for all of you.

Bah, none for me

P.S.  I realize that BTs is banned from the Season VIII Ladders, but does that include the 1v1 Ladders?  Cause I don't know about anybody else, but I will be royally pissed I gave Mauti $100 to be a *DAMN Supporter and not be able to play in the 1v1 Ghost Recon ladder when it comes out.  Also, does this ban include in any way posting on the forums?  Cause I am a bit of a forum whore and all.

First and foremost, you are not banned from the forums GS.  

Second, as for the 1v1, that's a good question for the Admins.  I know it's been stated that this is a Clan Ban, which means that if any members of BTs were to leave and join another clan, they would be allowed to CB (other than the clan leaders).  And no, that's not a suggestion, just repeating the rules, since it has something to do with how I'm going to answer.

Obviously I'm not making the decision on my own here GS, but I will give my opinion out in the open.  My opinion is, given that it's a clan punishment, not an individual one, the 1v1's wouldn't count.  Since you can't be a clan of one, the 1v1 is kind of exempt from this.  So, incase you didn't follow that double talk, my opinion is yes, you'd be allowed to play in the 1v1 ladder.  

Again, let me say that it's just my opinion, one I'll express with the other Admins.  But we'll have to discuss that because we hadn't thought of it before.  I'll post it and make sure I get back with you though.

[Fusion]

For the record everyone...

BTs ACCEPTED the decision passed down by the admins

BUT WE FORFEITED.. geez We didn't show up, let me check ... yup, thats considered a forfeit.


w00t we got banned for forfeiting a game.............

[Aramarth]

In the strict sense of the rules, this situation is treated as if BTs and MP5 were eliminated from the final round, thus core and c| are the surviving clans. I hope that helps.

Wow now thats the funniest thing I have ever seen!  "In the strict sense of the rules".    If that was followed before, none of this would have been an issue.

Easy there gentlemen. Believe it or not, I have acted based upon rules throughout this issue in its entirety, it is the two clans involved putting words in my mouth that would make it seem otherwise.

On a side note, I have a lot more respect for static and fah now. These are the sort of statements that I have been longing to see. I will happily answer you Fah.

You have every reason to be irritated. MP5's dodging of play doesn't make me a happy man. Here is what the admins had to go on:
1. MP5 played/finished the first cb on sunday at the default time.
2. For various reasons, they were unable to continue play that evening. They asked, as clans have in the past, for an extention to allow the best of 3 match to conclude.
3. Several admins made the decision to grant this request, and gave a 24 hour extention.
4. Eight believed this extention was an unfair advantage to MP5. Instead of asking nicely for a more suitable extention for his clan, he chose to mount a PR campaign (which even included naming numerous gameranger rooms in defiance of the ruling).
5. A second group of admins observed the apparent defiance of the historically valid ruling of an extention. Since eight was not using any "proper" channels, we (i was in this group) decided that the two clans would not solve this problem if left alone.
6. Calling up the core and network situation from december, we gave the same sort of ruling that mauti gave in that situation. Finish it, we don't care how, by this time (Tuesday midnight PST in this case).
7. Eight was again defiant. Apparently, when admins present a ruling it is not valid to some people.
8. According to the BL rules, refusing to cb during the finals calls for a ban. We supplied it. Due to the fact that MP5 was also at fault for a lot of this situation, we put them on probation. This means that if they try anything funny next season, they will be banned also.

So what does all my overly long text mean? BTs is not being punished for anything other than refusing to follow the rulings of a majority vote of admins. I have heard since that the extention supplied was insufficent for BTs to get members online. If this was the case, had BTs asked for a better extention instead of denying our right to grant one, we would have granted it also.
Mauti himself was willing to grant an entire extra week/weekend, but the only message I heard from eight about this was a pasted version of the email mauti sent him. No request was made for more time. Not to mention, at the time this was recieved it looked a whole heck of a lot like a ploy to undermine the admins' previous rulings by asking for mauti to help out, when mauti wasn't aware of all the facts.

I hope I made sense. I will clarify some points if you have a specific questions.

Aramarth

[BTs_GhostSniper]

I have a favor to ask of all of the Battle League Admins (except for Harvey and Bucc...):

Would you all (the admins, that is) PM me with your home address?  I have a little present for all of you.

Bah, none for me

Nah, Bucc, you wouldn't like what I'm sending them  

And I still like you.....I might not like the ruling, but your personal integrity was never a question for me.

[BTs_FahQ2]

So in rebuttle from the logic posted by ARA, a clan can ask for a extension without consulting the other clan first despite deadlines being set in concurrence with a week's time going by?

let me know if I missed the gist of this.  But because they asked for an extention without us present with tons of time being passed it was okay for Monday?  And no they didn't notify us because I was present when they all just logged off without any discussion.  We waited until 12am Pacific for anything.  They never came back with an explanation and all of this was worked out by monday.

rgr that

[|MP|Buccaneer]

For the record everyone...

BTs ACCEPTED the decision passed down by the admins

BUT WE FORFEITED.. geez We didn't show up, let me check ... yup, thats considered a forfeit.


w00t we got banned for forfeiting a game.............

For the record everyone...

This post is complete BS.  

Since I have screen shots of BTs being online, and even of BTs hosting a room titled "THERE IS NO WAY BTs IS PLAYING THE EXTENSION!!!!!!!", It was not a simple forfeit.  It was a flat out refusal Fusion.

[BTs_Mysterio]

For fuck sake BTs, the first CB went until way past 10, that's a CB which started at 7. Unfortunately, and I don't care if you disagree, I am not prepared to get into another potential 3+ hour CB on the last day of my break before going back to school. I don't intend to start off my first week feeling like shit. Games don't mean that much to me.

The CB itself:
I went into each CB telling each and every person to just leave all that hostility at the door and play the game for fun. I'll admit that the hostility in the CB itself was under control. Though, several things got to be about some peoples conduct:

1) Several people decided that when their clan was down to one person left they would hide this person through out the map in places where they can just hide and wait for the round to be declared a draw
2) Several people, who mind you had 50-100 pings, wouldn't shut up about "lag". Not that they even took notice that Typhy's ISP was bitching and he had a 400-700 ping.
3) Certain people took it upon themselves to start staying in the cell blocks of Prison the whole round.
4) Certain members of both clans wouldn't stop randomly insulting each other.

Those are some of the things atop of my sleep requirements that made me realize I wasn't prepared for 6 hours of CBing. If that is a crime oh well. A week of hell vs a game, I'll take my sleep.

I don't dislike BTs, I don't resent the admins, I just don't like seeing a clan name tarnished by propaganda. So be it if you think you should have gone through on Default BTs. If you really wanna win that badly, reconsider your surrounding lives.

Last note:
We didn't agree with the admins decision either time.
1) on saturday the decision to start the CB down 1 was BS to us, but we didn't bitch and moan and not play it out, we came back and won.
2) I couldn't have been in the 2nd CB nor 51 or snipe, but we were on as long as we could and waited.


Don't think this is one sided BS BTs, look farther than you're perspective.

[Fusion]

Ah its still a forfeit ...... Its a problem with semantics......

[|MP|Buccaneer]

a clan can ask for a extension without consulting the other clan first despite deadlines being set in concurrence with a week's time going by?

1) anyone can ask anything, doesn't mean they'll get it or that it's right.
2) BTs was consulted very much before anything was decided, don't doubt that.

And no they didn't notify us because I was present when they all just logged off without any discussion.  We waited until 12am Pacific for anything.  They never came back with an explanation and all of this was worked out by monday.

rgr that

What you weren't present for were the PM's going on FahQ.  Which I started to get from Eight before MP5 even logged off.

I don't know if Eight is or isn't giving you the whole picture, but based on your posts, I'm going to guess not.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I might not like the ruling, but your personal integrity was never a question for me.

Thanks GS, that actually means a lot.

[BTs_eight]

BTs was not consulted before any decisions were made... you guys came into my room and said we were at fault... and this is the new deadline...

[|MP|Buccaneer]

So, the PM's going back and fourth don't count as consulting?  Ok, that's a new one on me.

[Fusion]

Hey Bucc, did you read Aramarths post about MP5 requesting an extension? I know you know we didnt ask for an extention though...

Just wondering.......