Is Spanking a Christian Duty?

["Sixhits"]

Here's some gaffs from the article:

"Tyler Wallick says it is out of faith and love that he spanks his children. He is one of a number of fundamentalist Christians, who in their literal interpretation of the Bible, regard corporal punishment as a religious and parental duty."

and

""The bottom line is — people who do not think it is OK to paddle their children do not believe God's word," he said."

and

"It was an ad for one such device — a nylon whipping stick designed specifically to spank children — that provoked Susan Lawrence of Arlington, Mass., herself a Christian, to launch a Web-based crusade to outlaw spanking.

She says some Evangelicals are wrongly relying on verses from the Old Testament — with its wrathful God — when they should be looking to the gentle Jesus of the New Testament."

and

""Why don't we also keep slaves now? Stoning our daughters who may be gotten pregnant before marriage? All that is in the Bible [Old Testament] too," said Al Crowell, director of the San-Francisco based advocacy group Christians for Nonviolent Parenting."

I'm glad to see the Christian community debating this. For me, this sort of brutality drives to the core of the problem with fundamentalists -- excusing their own evil acts as God's will.


http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=724772&page=1

[bronto]

no matter what the outcome of this debate is (probably nothing will change), parents will still do what they see as fit. if your kids are acting up, chances are it's your fault....maybe in the future we'll have robots that whip the parents' asses when their kid acts like a shmuck.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

I fail to see the logic in spanking a child, especially younger children, of the age that they cannot understand why they are being spanked.  If they dont know the reason, then all they learn is that at any given moment at any given time, a whole world of hurt can land on their backside, not that tipping over and breaking the flower vase is bad.  And if they can understand the reason why, at that age the pain is but a brief instant, it doesnt last more than a couple minutes, if that, and at that age, that brief pain wont really register in the long-term memory of the kids, and theyll likely just do it again.

To me, spanking is the last resort of parents who are either inherantly violent/angry people, or are too lazy to discipline their children in a non-violent way.  Someone might say to me "i got spanked every ten minutes by my parents when I was a kid, I got spanked so often my ass was bleeding for the first seven years of my life! And I'm not dysfunctional, so spanking must be ok."  Well sure, but then look at me, who was never spanked once in my life.  My parents never struck me, period.  Despite this, I would argue that I am still a normal human being, not a saint by any means, but im certainly not a crackheaded highschool dropout either.  I think once parents resort to spanking, it means that they have failed their job as parents.

[Mr.Mellow]

I don't think that spanking should be your only disciplinary action, but to say you shouldn't spank at all...nonsense. I think kids get away with a lot more than they used to nowadays, and part of the reason for that is the lack of spanking. If all you do is spank your child, of course they're not going to learn. But if all you do is tell them "No, you shouldn't do that, because it's wrong. Mommy says don't do that!" they're not going to learn either, because there's no real consequences for their action. The kids will end up being put on some pill because they have some sort of "attention disorder." Yelling can be just as traumatic as years of spanking. My parents would spank me every now and then, but they also raised me to respect others. They used spanking as an addition to the discipline they were already teaching me. I think I turned out pretty well. Hell of a lot better than 95% of the kids around here. Now, as for spanking being a "Christian Duty", I think that's a load of bull, and it's just going to open up a whole can of worms of parents just spanking their children silly. I don't think parents should outlaw spanking completely. They just shouldn't rely on it as the only way of disciplining their child. I'm probably repeating myself, so I'll just stop.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

Well, I guess it depends on the child.  In my case, I was born with a very readily accessible sense of guilt and wrongdoing if my parents told me I did  something wrong (and they were very clear about that, they yelled at me, not abusively, but just very loud voice that at my young age almost literally scared the piss out of me).  So spanking was never needed.  I agree with you very wholeheartedly though Mellow, that kids get away with too much shit these days, starting, I think, with my generation (I'm currently 19) when things just kind of started to fall through.  In part because parents are so busy these days, they usually both are working, and get home so tired from work they've got no umph left in them to discipline their children for the limited time they're at home, thereby granting their kids more leniency than they should really have, and not being around them enough to impart good values and behaviors to them.  Yes, some of the personality is genetic, and therefore out of the realm of parental influence, but I still believe an overwhelming majority of a childs personality is adopted to some degree from their parents, or, from their parents action (or sometimes lack thereof).

[BFG]

I think regarding the behaviour of children and the control that parents reign over them is not effective if the only way is through acts of violence - and that is for several reasons. There is the famouse (actually its not famous at all i don't know why i said that) secario of young children hitting their parents - the responce is "no you dont hit mummy/daddy its wrong" and if/when the child persists they get a slap/spank...  So you tell your kid one thing, and then do another - not good role model. hitting parents was an example - its more a case of violence - the idea it is acceptable to cause physical pain to another person - and that you learn that from the most inportant people in your life, your parents.

I have seen through countless studies and research from my days studying Psychology that there are far far more effective ways of keeping control over your children - the most blindingly obviouse is reintroducing what so many parent-chiild relationships seem to have lost or never made - a link of respect and care - where the child does not want to cause any harm or pain to his/her parent - and knows that his/her parent feels the same.
- for me personally i have allways had a very strong determination not to do anything that caused my parents grief in any way - i felt/feel so attached to them that i will do whatever i can to make sure they are not harmed. - So, if they displayed unhappyness/pain/anger at my actions i felt bad, i felt guilty and i sure as hell didn't want to do it again. - ok i wasn't the perfect kid and im not kidding myself but.... and im not saying this turns you into a soppy pile of shit, but if there is one thing i think we have a great need of is for more empathy, for people to think about others and how their own actions affect them - be it thinking about the concequences of war to being being to lazy to recycle your house waste. There seems to be a growing sense of "look after me and my own and fuck everyone else" that disgusts me, and has a lot to answer for given the state of this world.

And a lot of what we see in the media or in peoples general view about the lack of respect and the growing increase of crime cased by young kids etc is our fault - or rather the fault of society. we live in a world now where parents on average spend less and less time with their children - be it because both parents work full time, or because its easier at the end of the day for the kids to sit at the computer and play computer games because it keeps them quiet. The strong contact time between parents and children seems to be being increasingly squeezed out of modern society. - and i don't think hitting your kid if they don't listen (because of their lack of respect they have for you, possibly rightly) is the answer.

All of that said, there are times and there are points where a quick smack on the ass can be called for - its just not the alternative for bringing up responsible caring children - and who can you blame if they don't grow up to respect and care for you and others?

And to wind back on topic? Well its just another reason why Christian Fundamentalists scare the fuck out of me.... but also what a joke it is - how they seem to pick out select parts of the bible to live by, but totally ignore others. Its exacty the same with the islamic fundamentalists - both they and christian fundamentalits are not true to their faith - they pick out the bits that suit them and dwell on them, while ignoring and disgarding anypart that they do not agree with or do not want to have to adhere to. disgusting.

and thats my break over. back to work! nice to have a good debate topic in the gg to talk bout though

[onwig]

not to come accross wrong, and hell you can all have your opinions, but wait until you actually become parents.

From a very early age, children figure out how to twist, manipulate you and just general make you crack into depression/being very tired all the time and just generally fed up.

Try having 3-4hrs sleep most nights, working all day, cooking/cleaning then decorating, paying bills general everyday stuff, not being able to go out because you have to buy nappies(dypers) baby milk etc. Unless you have good support like grandparents, that can take the kids of your hands for a bit, it soon gets hard. It is possibly the most trying time of your life. But on a lighter note, its also the best experience you will ever have. to see them walk for the first time, first words etc.

I/my wife have never smacked/spanked my daughter for  bad behavior, not because we are against it, we just don't do it. We use other methods, like ignoring them - she soon gets fed up when she isnt getting the attention, also, we have a naughty step which she has to sit on (sometimes doesnt work well, keeping a 3 1/2 year old still is quite difficult). We occaisinally shout at her, which makes her burst into tears.

But every child is different, some kids are just generally naughty, and some of the time its not down to parenting skills, when kids join nurserys/child groups they pick bad behaviors up from other kids and its hard to get it back out of them.

[BFG]

sorry onwig, i just read your post, then read mine, and i think i didn't communicate myself very well, i sound like im on a parent bashing mode or something.

From a very early age, children figure out how to twist, manipulate you

Ahh yes, you should meet a couple of my cousins. They are absolute pro's at it.

wig, did you watch any of those 'supernanny' programmes on tv? (the naughty step rang a bell) i caught a bit of one of them on tv, bloody hell she didn't half turn the house around and set things straight!!

[onwig]

nah, didnt see any of them, the naughty step thing was from school, they might have got the idea from the tv series.

[*NADS Lo$eMoney]

wig, did you watch any of those 'supernanny' programmes on tv? (the naughty step rang a bell) i caught a bit of one of them on tv, bloody hell she didn't half turn the house around and set things straight!!

We got those shows here in the states as well, they even had pohms as the nannies.  I watched one for about 20 minutes and for a "reality show" it was so obviously scripted it was rediculous.  I think bullshit like that does more to hurt people's perceptions of child care than help them, but whatever makes money i guess...

[Supernatural Pie]

It is my belief that spanking only came to exist because parents were unable to figure out how else to get their kids not to do something. Starting as early in life as possible, parents should be teaching kids why they should and should not do certain things. Spanking is only providing a direct cause-effect relationship that the child remembers. The problem with that is the child thinks (lets use Lone's flower vase example) that the only reason he shouldn't knock over the flower vase is because he'll then get spanked. That's not teaching the child that he shouldn't knock over the flower vase because it's a valuable vase, or it has flowers that Dad bought for Mom's birthday in it, or that their flowers that Mom grew in her garden. The child isn't thinking about WHY it was wrong of them to knock over the vase in the first place. They're only thinking about the fact that if they knock over the flower vase, they get spanked. So what does this all mean? The child has to go around, knocking down everything in the house, and getting spanked for all of them, so that he won't knock everything in the house down again? What about explaining to the child that they shouldn't be doing what they did BECAUSE... yada yada. Then that child actually has something to work with, and now you're getting into the emotions of the child; you're breaking into ground where the child is going to begin to be able to recognize right from wrong, and make conscious decisions on his or her own. Spanking isn't getting to the root of the problem.

Anyway, now that I feel I've successfully continued this little tradition of repeating myself 3 times in one paragraph, I'll stop.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

You seriously think that even if you 'splain it realllly good, a four year old is gonna be able to reason thru the entire process. that throwing the ball will break the vase and that is bad because mommy and daddy bought it on their honeymoon trip to french guyana, and therefore very rare? no. Most kids dont CARE about your vase or your feelings about it. They WILL care about a spanking....even a light one.
Many times, they need immediate stimulus...reasoning doent always work, and dyoull understand around the time the terrible twos hit.

And this argument is getting all screwed up in its logic because its soooo easy to slap the label of abuse onto spanking (becuase of concrete cases of abuse) and saying that a spanking ISNT going to get the lesson at hand across. One does NOT follow from the other in all cases.... Im in agreement that there are alternative ways to explain CERTAIN things, but the immediate cuase effect of DO THIS=GET SPANKED works..and no amount of trying to equate that to a psychological damaging action is going to make that any less true. I can remeber several VERy specific lessons that it helped me learn....one was electricity, the other was the stove...for some reason i wouldnt leave either alone,and it required a spanking. Saved the house im sure, and kept me from frying myself.  I didnt understand electricty, but understood a spanking.

(im going to reiterate that i see the difference between non-differentiated, abuse or beating in anger and spanking, becuase i can see that the two have already been equated in the minds of many) the logic of that cannot be further fromt he truth.

Heres is a case of the glass being half full AND half empty in that there is validity to both sides..but neither is correct in its entirety..yes some kids respond to a psychological outsmarting...some dont..then need to be spanked...(NOT BEATEN OK?...spanked)

Sit in one of my wifes HIGH SCHOOL classes and youlll realize that spanking or not..our country is FUCKED..and i mean FUCKED beacuease of the fear of children and the fear of discipline, and the SUPEr fear of people like those of you who are equating discipline with abuse..and threatening legal action and intervention over the application of either...
Some of it is caused by the general principle of no discilpine,and some is caused becuase there was no physical lesson to be learned to enforce the REASON/Motivation for discipline early...
Sure, spanking is not ALWAYS the answer..but neither is touchy feely, "heres why i would like you to behave garbage"...Depends on situation.

**It is my belief that spanking only came to exist because parents were unable to figure out how else to get their kids not to do something.**MP5SNIPE  ...

and yes snipe sometimes thats true, therefore, sometimes necessary.....But, see what happens when your child wont stop pulling on food at the stove even tho youve explained it thouroughly, sensitively, and touchingly to them..just see...

It's all opinion so theres no point in disagreeing with me   

["Sixhits"]

Sit in one of my wifes HIGH SCHOOL classes and youlll realize that spanking or not..our country is FUCKED..and i mean FUCKED beacuease of the fear of children and the fear of discipline, and the SUPEr fear of people like those of you who are equating discipline with abuse..and threatening legal action and intervention over the application of either...

"those of you who are equating discipline with abuse"

Here's the rub. Spanking isn't discipline, it's hitting.

Lack of spanking isn't the problem. Lack of discipline is. Part of the problem is that too many parents lack the will or desire to properly discipline their kid. That doesn't mean spanking them, that means finding ways to teach an important lesson. it doesn't mean being all lovely dovey. No fucking way. It does mean being consistant.

Some people equate violene with discipline, and use spanking as a quick fix or easy out. I won't deny that a good spanking will teach a child something pretty quick. But, it's teaching more than one thing. It's first lesson is, don't fucking do that or I'll hurt you. It's second lesson is, violence is the solution to complex problems. Neither lesson is one I believe we should be teaching kids.

The other side of this is, that if you're dead set on spanking your kids in order to discipline them then you, the parent, needs to be disciplined in how you issue a spanking. Which, I think, is rarely if ever true.

The only way a spanking can teach a good lesson is as a negative: Don't do that, coupled with, this is your punishment. But, in order for a child to understand this good lesson the child has to be able to understand a lot of other things. I doubt many four years can make a distinction between a spanking for nearly electrocuting themselves and a spanking because they spilled mommy's coffee on her new shoes.

Essentially, the rationale for spanking a child immeadiately breaks down once you analysis it -- one presumes the child can learn the lesson no other way, but, also assumes the child is sohisticated enough to learn the lesson being taught. It's doesn't work like that.

Now, if you're goal is to turn your child into a creature one step from some herd beast then sure, a spanking is an excellent solution. But we are not raising cows, people. We are raising human beings.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you are parents?  I know that Onwig and I are both fathers, but I'm not sure how many of the rest of you are.

By the way, I don't spank my daughter, even though I am a Conservative Republican Christian.  And it's not that I don't believe in spanking...I got spanked when I was a kid and I think I deserved it and probably needed it.  Every child is different though...some of the very strong-willed ones (specifically boys), could probably use a good spanking every now and then.  I know I did!  lol

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Sixhits-

Again, as I feared...you have broadbrushed the 'abuse' angle until it conveniently appeared to back up your argument. But you have failed in the critical steps of your logical argument.

Presumeably the first being, that if, as you contend, a child can comprehend your explanations for not doing 'X', then why wouldnt they be able to comprehend that you are intervening in their behalf, and helping them associate a spanking as a REPLACEMENT for the negative consequence of doing 'X". And for the purposed of MY argument, that is all that spanking is...a substitue for the grease burn, electrical shock, being hit by a car, etc....

No where in your post did you address how you might convince a persistant four year old to stop grabbing things on the stove,fiddling with sockets, or running into the street...RIGHT NOW..no, not in a few days, not in a week, but NOW...For those instances you dont have the luxury of time to get it across to the point where it sinks in.

This being a completely SUBjective argument, the pros and cons are completely in the eyes of the beholder. Faulting parents who Do use this as a supplemental learning tool for the more immediate instances, and resorting to the abuse argument is typical of the liberal "lets be so afraid of it and collectively mortified by it, that we fail to examine objectively, and villify those who think differently than we do" debate style. (which is EXACTLY what liberals claim is the exclusive domain of the conservatives) Further, its a typical liberal presumption, failing to concede that opinions or methods or approaches which differ from their own contain merit .... Slapping your own bias all over it, so that you can use the immediate (sometimes appropriate) visceral reaction to your premise to add to the weight of the facts you bring to the table is THE ONE logical mis-step that threatens to topple your entire argument. it doesnt make your opinion more factual or correct than mine. In many cases, less so.

Prove to me that you are truly objective; distance yourself from the 'emotional' angle of equating all physical discipline with VIOLENCE, and admit that if I can profess that FOR ME, and many like me, that since there were no negative effect whatsoever,and TONS of positive consequence, that my argument MUST contain some truth as well. If youre unable to do this, you are not debating your view...you are pushing it.

I can tell you that 100% percent in my case, I am grateful for the specific lessons that I was able to grasp due to the immediacy of a small pop..(also, did you read the part where I mentioned even LIGHT spanking worked?-hardy abusive or violent-just startling)  Im sure glad they didnt wait for me to get it through my thick four year old skull the WHY part of 'electricity, stoves, and streets are dangerous".  A small swat can be a perfect, timely substitue for a long drawn out blue in the face explanation for the dangers of X.

Perhaps i failed in two aspects...in each and every time i was spanked i was hugged, and kissed and told that i was loved, and that sometimes it was necessary to punish me..in the long AND short run for my own good. (according to your own argument, if a child is intelligent enough to understand an alternative method of explanation, they can understand parental love, reasoning and consistency) This i guess would be the critical missing element for ME, that i left out, that helped me understand the how this instructive act was different than abuse. Never ONCE did i feel then or now, that i was abused, or violated, and even back then, i remember understanding my parents intentions. Children are not utterly retarded unable to discern discipline applied in love, and discipline mis-applied in anger.

Sure, You can let your four year old pull that hot grease onto himself or stick a fork into a socket to learn his own lesson so that you dont have to resort to " abuse and violence", but for the rest of us..we're grateful that they didnt wait for the lesson to be learned that way.  
Hope your kids have insurance.

--That said, spanking is NOT for all situations, and the incorrect application of discipline is what you should really be rallying against..and on that point, i couldnt agree more. In fact, if you modified your objection just SLIGHTLY, you and I would be in total agreement. Spanking in anger or inconstency or 'out of the blue' isnt going to serve any purpose whatsoever.... Dont have to spank em for everthing all the time...but sometimes.. and with love, with consistency.

Re-Reading post, you conceded a point i missed, so ill modify mine to say that if there is time to discipline with logic, etc..then spanking isnt nec..I'll agree there. Kids are fairly smart.  I guess Im primarily dealing with issues that are immediate, and perhaps lifesaving, where time is of the essense.

Theres just NO need to patronize people with alternative points of views to yours with garbage like "turning your child into a creature one step from herd beas, then sure, a spanking is an excellent solution"...

It's unecesary and immature and won't help you convince me that youre willing to look at this through an objective filter...even if you Do concede a point or two.

[~Po~ TiroFino]

I particularly do not spank my kids, and I'm also a Christian, so I think that debate is irrelevant!

I favor more the taking away of privileges.... You either earn them or lose them !

and the best way to raise a child is through example..... they do as they see... make sure they see you do the right things.... don't expect them to not smoke if you do, don't expect them to not drink if you do... don't expect them not to lie if you do.. etc.

[DarK.]

By the time you are 10 spanking no longer hurts anyway, you need to have priveledges taken away (such as movies, or the car for older teens) Spanking a 17 year old is not going to do much other than embarrass them.  Spanking is by far overrated, I remember by a young age it no longer hurting, or just getting it over with so they stop yelling at you.  Generally I have noticed with my cousins and younger sibling, that getting spanked tends to cause a feeling of guilt in the parents, where a taken away priveledge is a much more prudent way of discipline.

[spike]

I was spanked a few times, cant say it did much damage, it was really when my parents took away my bike/tv/internet/left me in a hole in the basement and lowered lotion down to me in a basket that i really understood.

[Mr.Mellow]

I think we're mostly talking about spanking when children are younger. Now, don't think I'm getting Pro-Spank-Them-All-The-Time, but I have some questions for the non-spankers. What kind of priveledges can you take away from a 3-4 year old? Also, a few people have said that a child can't fully/if at all understand why they are being spanked for doing something wrong. Now, if this is true, how will any other form of punishment work? At least with spanking (not beating, mind you) there is something bad associated with doing bad things. I can guarantee you, spanking a child for playing around with an electrical socket will teach them a lot quicker than trying to explain to them that it's dangerous and bad. They'll definitely think twice before playing with that socket again. And, be honest, how many of us when we were children EVER paid attention to our parents when they lectured us? We just nodded and agreed with them until they shut up, so we could go back to watching Care Bears.

[Supernatural Pie]

You seriously think that even if you 'splain it realllly good, a four year old is gonna be able to reason thru the entire process.

You seriously think that a two-month old baby is going to understand anything it's mother says to it? No, but mothers always have and always will talk to their babies, even if they don't even know what is being said to them. Why? The easy answer is that if you talk to him or her enough, eventually they will learn the language.

The same goes for discipline. Even if the child doesn't understand on the first attempt why he shouldn't "break mommy's vase", does that mean you should give up all hope, and resort to spanking? No. Continue to explain to the child why he shouldn't do certain things, and at a certain point in their life, they will understand, and maybe they, too, will turn out to be decent human beings.

I'm in high school. My parents never even considered laying a hand on me or my brother. I think that I've already turned out far better than some of the adults I know around here. (I wonder if Rapid was spanked as a kid...    )