About the CQB Mod...

[Brain]

To answer your question, yes you are a thief (the proper term for it).? You took something, in whole or in part that was not your work you then modified it, however there were still fragments of the original code left intact (you said you copy/pasted).?  Once you claimed that the result was your work you committed a copyright violation.?  Even if there is one line of original code left in your work, you must still GIVE THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR CREDIT!?  
Had we been talking about a paper, what you have done would be called plagiarism.? You're in school now aren't you mainman?? Then I'm pretty sure you know damn well you need to properly cite all your sources in a paper.? The same goes for websites and mods.? Cite your sources or you are no better than a common thief.

I studied copyrights in school and you are wrong, what you are saying is true for certain type of works but HTML is different in the sense that it was concieved to be opened, you actually cannot copyright anything HTML, its part of the standard.

didn't know that, i stand corrected

the rest of the argument still stands though. and is still doesn't wipe the fact the mainman has long had an axe to grind with mp. (nobody knows why though. we think it started when we banned him for ripping on our site at our site. no clue why he started it though)


by what is you screen name steve@hotmail.com.  in the future if you ever want to make a point you will more than likely need to have one ore else you will be shoved aside like a useless piece of scrap  (i'm sure you've posted here before, i've seen the just my 2 cents sig before)

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I studied copyrights in school and you are wrong, what you are saying is true for certain type of works but HTML is different in the sense that it was concieved to be opened, you actually cannot copyright anything HTML, its part of the standard.

Get your tuition money back.  The copyright laws for the US are easy to find and follow.  I even pointed out the fair use when taking my stance against stealing music.  We covered them in a grad school class on business law.  It's also why I keep telling these people that you do not have to state or register a copyright, they are considered expressed when you first record the work (pen&paper, tape, hard drive, whatever).

The content of your web site is protected (not the code, not the techniques, but the content).  

As I pointed out before, if I were to take the BTs web site, copy all the files over, and just change the background color, it would, in fact, be a copyright violation.  And above all, it would just be wrong.  Which is what gets ignored when talking about copyright law.  It's just a low down shitty thing to do.

[Jeb]

to answer a whole lot of another _____'s statements, i'd like to point out that that doesn't apply in the professional world.

I am a intern at a large webdesign/media company where i live, and i am not allowed to steal code directly from a site not made by anyone in the company. By this i mean if someone wrote a kickass javascript tool, you gotta give them credit as long as its a private site and they have a terms of use agreement. Sites such as webmonkey and builder, or a api from macromedia or something along those lines doesn't apply because they allow free use. But basically, if your in a place that you can call yourself a designer (or mod maker) you should know how to make what you use, and at the least, make the basis to your work. And like bucc pointed out, the content is protected, and our content is in the CQB mod in its original form.

Defending mainman with an argument that we are bad because we have downloaded an MP3 and that makes us theifs, doesn't apply to this. (but strangely it also admits that mainman is in the wrong). The battle over the morality of illegal mp3 downloading focus is on money, not credit. It would be like me downloading that shitty Ruben Studdard single, and putting my name on it, then distributing it to people. I also should point out that mainman's mod also is nothing like a remix in the music world. Remix's are made to add life to a song, or to allow another musician to make the song to their liking. The CQB mod IS NOT a remix of the MP mod, IT IS THE EXACT SAME THING but it also contains maps made by other people, who also get no credit.

I would like to thank fusion for at least having the heart to help take the files out of the mod, because mainman has basically told me "fuck you my mod is going to use your files"

[PowderToast Man]

First my comment were a 2? thing hence the fact that I didnt thought it was usefull for you to know who I am. I am not a member of any clan and I only wanted to put things back in perspective because copyrights laws are amongst the least understood laws. Steve@hotmail.com must hate me cause its the email address I give everytime I don't want to be reached. Since it seems important to you to put a face on the name, well I'm PowderToast Man (input heavy echo and reverberation on name...).

I do not approve what mainman did, he should have gave credit to lothlario, however notice that all the argument used to call him a stealer and general bad boy are the same used by the RIAA and metalica, which are crucified by the public for trying to protect their intellectual property, except that Loth is not loosing money to it...
Also, loth haven't bought the engine of ghost recon to officialy modify it and sell its modifications. He therefore has the right to modify his own copy of it but cannot claim copyright on any work he did cause he didn't obtain copyrights on the engine, thats another specification of data copyrights. You can only claim copyright on original code, not on settings, and a mod is nothing but settings. He could claim the rights on all the artworks (but not the soundbites, you cannot copyright a soundbite) of the firearms but not on their charateristics, names (which are trademarked not copyrighted) or locations. So mainman giving him credit is just an honor thing, its rather sucker of him not to have done it. Plus the 1.2 version thing where he claimed he removed all of Loth work to be finally caught using it again, well, thats sad..

Bucaneer:

I felt attacked needlessly so I will answer very clearly your suspition: I have been studying in sound design and music industry, my copyright teacher (and later boss) is Gilles Valiquette the president of Socan, the copyright society of canada, the highest instance on the matter (US and Canada have the same copyright laws -mostly, some details vary but not those ones). For each type of work there are specifications, fair use applies to books, music and movies and most type of data. However some type of data can't be copyrighted like HTML, because the standard states it and expressely forbid copyrighting it, which means the person who invented HTML included in the standard that no one could use his work to copyright another. I am not even sure you know what fair use is so I'll go: fair use is a portion of the copyright law that let anyone use parts of a work for study purpose, by study we mean academic study (or public, like in a tv show, ...even then), if you want to study the work of your favorite singer for your own personnal knowledge it is illegal to copy it.

Sorry for playing anonymous but i didn't think the name was important since I am not in a clan and don't participate in CB, I'm just interested in the GhR movement and follow it. I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my comments. Now, you can blast me personnally!  

[me again]

a website is more than HTML and Javascript isnt HTML, HTML cant be copyrighted Javascript can, so your boss just wanna be sure he wont get in legal trouble so completely forbid you to copy any part of a website, its simpler.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I am not even sure you know what fair use is so I'll go: fair use is a portion of the copyright law that let anyone use parts of a work for study purpose, by study we mean academic study (or public, like in a tv show, ...even then), if you want to study the work of your favorite singer for your own personnal knowledge it is illegal to copy it.

First, maybe you should check out this thread before thinking I don't know anything about copyright law or fair use (as I directed in my last post):

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=4392;start=msg57984#msg57984

Especially let me direct your attention to this part:

Copyrights on books, for example, do not allow you to pass off work as your own, but there's nothing stopping you from making another copy to use.  And have you ever been to a library?  Sharing intellectual property isn't illegal either.

Go take a copyrighted book to a Kinko's and give it to the guy behind the counter.  If he copies it, he's breaking the law.  Most Kinko's wont do it (they will let you do it yourself on the self service machines, but they wont take part in it.)  Go into your corporate copy center, I wanted a chapter copied, they made me get the letter and keep in on file.  I am not making this up.  It is illegal to make those copies.  There are exceptions (fair use act) and they are:

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that     section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting,     teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use),     scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.

You see, not only am I aware of the law, I do know where to look it up for reference.

Now, for some more.

You can only claim copyright on original code, not on settings, and a mod is nothing but settings.

That's not exactly true either.  There are copyrighted mods (just look at Island Thunder, for example).  Another example would be Photoshop filters that are copyrighted by third parties.

However some type of data can't be copyrighted like HTML, because the standard states it and expressely forbid copyrighting it, which means the person who invented HTML included in the standard that no one could use his work to copyright another.

Hate to burst your bubble, but even the HTML standard is copyrighted.  Just check out the ISO / IEEE or W3C web sits for the standard.  Even check out the copyright notices on the copyright offices web site.  You can copyright the content of a web site.

You can't claim a second copyright on content for moving it to a different medium, if that's what you are getting at, because the CONTENT (as I said in the earlier post) is what's copyrighted, not the medium itself.  What you are discussing is how you can't read a book out loud, record that and copyright it.  It was already copyrighted.

I do not approve what mainman did, he should have gave credit to lothlario, however notice that all the argument used to call him a stealer and general bad boy are the same used by the RIAA and metalica, which are crucified by the public for trying to protect their intellectual property, except that Loth is not loosing money to it...

Money isn't an issue, more on this in a second.  

If Loth doesn't want to give permission, even giving him credit is still a violation of copyright law.  Loth has to agree to have his stuff there.

Here is a good web site that most of the people here should look at before talking about copyright law.  It's called the 10 Big Myths about copyrights.  It's all correct and easier for most to read then going through the actual copyright code.  Numbers 1, 3, 5, 6 and 9 are all things people here have gotten wrong.

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

As for not posting under your real name, if you have nothing to hide, if you are confident in what you are representing, then you shouldn't hide behind a false one.  The forums are full of people that come on as guests to try and support their own positions.  And that loses credibility, not gains it.

Oh, one last thing.  While arguing copyright law is all fun, I still stand by my previous point that the copyright is not the issue, since this isn't a court.  What is the issue is that someone copied work that wasn't theirs, without permission, and tried to pass it off as their own.  I don't care if he eventually gets all Loth's code out (which he still hasn't done according to Loth yesterday, even though he said he has 3 times now).  He's still a scumbag for doing it.  I went back and found a reference to when someone here copied the DAMN site for their own use, and there was talk about the HTML copyright back then too.  I noticed that everyone stood up for not stealing the DAMN web site at the time.  Why should this be any different?

[mainmanslastreply]

OK i have no idea wtf u guys are saying now.. so here the lastest heartbreaking news..

I sent loth a beta 2.0 version... everything seems 2 be fine.. execpt with the pistols.. Since i used the pistols from the MP mod, he wants them 2 be removed.. I dont really understand why should i remove something thats not orginally his... H&K 9mm?? He never made that.. he borowed the script then added it.. I allrdy modified the pistols 2 the max.. I renamed alot.. changed speed, weight.. ect..

You cant copywrite gun balistics...

I wana make sure before 2.0 is out so CBing can star that i have a "go" on this.

[S.p.i.d.e.r.]

Actually, he did, he implemented all those weapons into Ghost Recon.

[MainMaN]

Loth cant say thoose files are his.. they look nothing like them.. the range are different.. the same.. the modifcation date.

ect...

[Mr. Lothario]

     The current status of the CQB mod argument: there are still 16 of my guns in place and active. Mainman has been informed of this, and insists that because he changed the magazine size (on one of them) and the zoom (to 1x) on the guns, they are no longer mine. My argument is that because I invested hours in tweaking and testing those guns until they behaved exactly as I wanted, his modifications are not equivalent. I told him to remove my guns and make his own for his mod, like I did. He replied that because my guns are based on real guns, they are not mine and so I cannot do anything, and besides which, because he modified them, they're now his guns.

     So anyway, I'm still waiting on mainman to remove the files.

[Mr. Lothario]

     Exhibit 1: the Desert Eagle .50. First, the |MP| Mod version:

Code:

<GunFile>
   <VersionNumber>1.000000</VersionNumber>
   <ModelFileName>de50.qob</ModelFileName>
   <NameToken>WPN_DE50</NameToken>
   <Weight>1.800000</Weight>
   <MagazineCapacity>7</MagazineCapacity>
   <MagazineWeight>0.1115</MagazineWeight>
   <MaxRange>198.169998</MaxRange>
   <VelocityCoefficient0>580.2</VelocityCoefficient0>
   <VelocityCoefficient1>-0.52668</VelocityCoefficient1>
   <VelocityCoefficient2>-0.0005852</VelocityCoefficient2>
   <KillCoefficient1>1.002</KillCoefficient1>
   <KillCoefficient2>0.009</KillCoefficient2>
   <ReticuleTextureName>reticle_pistol.rsb</ReticuleTextureName>
   <ReticulePipLeft>0</ReticulePipLeft>
   <ReticulePipTop>0</ReticulePipTop>
   <ReticulePipRight>4</ReticulePipRight>
   <ReticulePipBottom>2</ReticulePipBottom>
   <ReticuleBaseLeft>0</ReticuleBaseLeft>
   <ReticuleBaseTop>0</ReticuleBaseTop>
   <ReticuleBaseRight>2</ReticuleBaseRight>
   <ReticuleBaseBottom>2</ReticuleBaseBottom>
   <ReticulePipBaseOffset>1</ReticulePipBaseOffset>
   <ReticulePipMaxOffset>270</ReticulePipMaxOffset>
   <Selective>
      <SelectiveOption RateOfFire = "290" RoundsPerPull = "1" StartSound = "C_PS50_ss.wav"/>
   </Selective>
   <Recoil>210</Recoil>
   <RunStandAccuracy>215</RunStandAccuracy>
   <RunCrouchAccuracy>350</RunCrouchAccuracy>
   <RunProneAccuracy>90</RunProneAccuracy>
   <WalkStandAccuracy>60</WalkStandAccuracy>
   <WalkCrouchAccuracy>85</WalkCrouchAccuracy>
   <WalkProneAccuracy>90</WalkProneAccuracy>
   <ShuffleStandAccuracy>60</ShuffleStandAccuracy>
   <ShuffleCrouchAccuracy>65</ShuffleCrouchAccuracy>
   <ShuffleProneAccuracy>50</ShuffleProneAccuracy>
   <StationaryStandAccuracy>22</StationaryStandAccuracy>
   <StationaryCrouchAccuracy>10</StationaryCrouchAccuracy>
   <StationaryProneAccuracy>7</StationaryProneAccuracy>
   <TurnBandVelocity1>0.75</TurnBandVelocity1>
   <TurnBandMultiplier1>1</TurnBandMultiplier1>
   <TurnBandVelocity2>2</TurnBandVelocity2>
   <TurnBandMultiplier2>4</TurnBandMultiplier2>
   <TurnBandVelocity3>4</TurnBandVelocity3>
   <TurnBandMultiplier3>8</TurnBandMultiplier3>
   <TurnBandVelocity4>10</TurnBandVelocity4>
   <TurnBandMultiplier4>25</TurnBandMultiplier4>
   <TurnBandVelocity5>100000</TurnBandVelocity5>
   <TurnBandMultiplier5>100</TurnBandMultiplier5>
   <StabilizationTime>0.143</StabilizationTime>
   <WeaponMotionType>0</WeaponMotionType>
   <HasUnderbarrelWeapon>0</HasUnderbarrelWeapon>
   <Silenced>0</Silenced>
   <ZoomSettings>
      <Zoom>1</Zoom>
      <Zoom>1.5</Zoom>
   </ZoomSettings>
   <MuzzleFlashScale>1.8</MuzzleFlashScale>
   <TracerFrequency>0</TracerFrequency>
</GunFile>

And the CQB mod Desert Eagle .50:

Code:

<GunFile>
   <VersionNumber>1.000000</VersionNumber>
   <ModelFileName>de50.qob</ModelFileName>
   <NameToken>WPN_DE50</NameToken>
   <Weight>1.800000</Weight>
   <MagazineCapacity>7</MagazineCapacity>
   <MagazineWeight>0.1115</MagazineWeight>
   <MaxRange>198.169998</MaxRange>
   <VelocityCoefficient0>580.2</VelocityCoefficient0>
   <VelocityCoefficient1>-0.52668</VelocityCoefficient1>
   <VelocityCoefficient2>-0.0005852</VelocityCoefficient2>
   <KillCoefficient1>1.002</KillCoefficient1>
   <KillCoefficient2>0.009</KillCoefficient2>
   <ReticuleTextureName>reticle_pistol.rsb</ReticuleTextureName>
   <ReticulePipLeft>0</ReticulePipLeft>
   <ReticulePipTop>0</ReticulePipTop>
   <ReticulePipRight>4</ReticulePipRight>
   <ReticulePipBottom>2</ReticulePipBottom>
   <ReticuleBaseLeft>0</ReticuleBaseLeft>
   <ReticuleBaseTop>0</ReticuleBaseTop>
   <ReticuleBaseRight>2</ReticuleBaseRight>
   <ReticuleBaseBottom>2</ReticuleBaseBottom>
   <ReticulePipBaseOffset>1</ReticulePipBaseOffset>
   <ReticulePipMaxOffset>270</ReticulePipMaxOffset>
   <Selective>
      <SelectiveOption RateOfFire = "290" RoundsPerPull = "1" StartSound = "C_PS50_ss.wav"/>
   </Selective>
   <Recoil>210</Recoil>
   <RunStandAccuracy>215</RunStandAccuracy>
   <RunCrouchAccuracy>350</RunCrouchAccuracy>
   <RunProneAccuracy>90</RunProneAccuracy>
   <WalkStandAccuracy>60</WalkStandAccuracy>
   <WalkCrouchAccuracy>85</WalkCrouchAccuracy>
   <WalkProneAccuracy>90</WalkProneAccuracy>
   <ShuffleStandAccuracy>60</ShuffleStandAccuracy>
   <ShuffleCrouchAccuracy>65</ShuffleCrouchAccuracy>
   <ShuffleProneAccuracy>50</ShuffleProneAccuracy>
   <StationaryStandAccuracy>22</StationaryStandAccuracy>
   <StationaryCrouchAccuracy>10</StationaryCrouchAccuracy>
   <StationaryProneAccuracy>7</StationaryProneAccuracy>
   <TurnBandVelocity1>0.75</TurnBandVelocity1>
   <TurnBandMultiplier1>1</TurnBandMultiplier1>
   <TurnBandVelocity2>2</TurnBandVelocity2>
   <TurnBandMultiplier2>4</TurnBandMultiplier2>
   <TurnBandVelocity3>4</TurnBandVelocity3>
   <TurnBandMultiplier3>8</TurnBandMultiplier3>
   <TurnBandVelocity4>10</TurnBandVelocity4>
   <TurnBandMultiplier4>25</TurnBandMultiplier4>
   <TurnBandVelocity5>100000</TurnBandVelocity5>
   <TurnBandMultiplier5>100</TurnBandMultiplier5>
   <StabilizationTime>0.143</StabilizationTime>
   <WeaponMotionType>0</WeaponMotionType>
   <HasUnderbarrelWeapon>0</HasUnderbarrelWeapon>
   <Silenced>0</Silenced>
   <ZoomSettings>
      <Zoom>1</Zoom>
      <Zoom>1</Zoom>
   </ZoomSettings>
   <MuzzleFlashScale>1.8</MuzzleFlashScale>
   <TracerFrequency>0</TracerFrequency>
</GunFile>

[Lazy Cringe]

Mainmans slight changes are still considered plagiarism, and probably copyright infringement. From what i know, you have to change at least 20%, if not more,  of a work for it to be considered something other than the original.

[mainmanjhdfjdfj]

ok i removed them all..

Since basically we can fight over this later...

the only thing left is the mp5's which i edited them and testing them out... ect.. from ghr basic file so u should have no issue with that. And cringe other mods have ghr m9 with changed clips... thats not copy write infringement.

[Mr. Lothario]

     Using a game's original data in a mod is not copyright infringement because by making a moddable game, the developers expect (and want) people to work with and modify the original data. Using another modder's data in a mod is an entirely different ball of wax.

     In your mod, you have two copies each of the MP5 and MP5SD. One each is mine, and you cannot use them. The other two are not mine, and thus I'm not going to complain if you're using them.

[MainMaN]

okok... fixed offically.. meaning no more arguing.

loth just confired that 2.0 has the "go".

[Mr. Lothario]

     Latest update: Mainman sent me another version of 2.0. With the exception of one pistol (the Steyr SPP), it is completely free of my guns. It's still using some of my kit restrictions and kits, but I decided a long time ago not to bother with those. Mainman has promised to remove the SPP, so assuming that he keeps his word, this is settled.

[BTs_ST u RM]

WOW!!!!

    I didn't know if I would live to see this!!!! Mighty big of you LOTH!!  May we all kill each other much using the MP MOD and the CBQ MOD!!!!

                             BTs_ST u RM

[BTs_ST u RM[SER]]

Hmmmmm,

  what's this?  Loth's approval of CQB MOD?  I hope Bucc and other [MP]'s don't miss this.  

How am I banned on [MP] servers?  Certainly not because of the CQB mod?

Now how will I ever try the WARZONE MOD that TWO (unnamed) clans are trying to push into the DAMN R6 Battle League, as [MP]s are pretty much the only people who enjoy this MOD enough to host it?

I'm going to play some standard mp\c lms,

                   BTs_ST u RM[SER]

[crypt]

im banned from MP's servers because of who i am, which is complete bs, anyway, screw WZ, long live LMS.


peace, crypt

[X1 Xaiver]

 

Well this is the most popular topic I've seen in a while but anyways loth I don't quite understand how you can be so forgiving since I am a modder myself. The question I have is how could you just give into mainman I mean the whole CQB mod whatever version it be now started as your work and the work of others whom recieved no credit at all. Just because he took most of your months of hard work out your going to let him use the rest? Well I suppose that's the way of the world having everyone copy off someone elses hard work for the fact that they either can't come up with the idea on their own or just to damn lazy to try. Well Lorathio I guess I have to respest you for being so forgiving but what he did to your work was just plain wrong. Now once more I'll say the CQB mod without the |MP| files is no better than the original version it's just a compalation of other peoples time and effort. Mainman knowing that I was a modder myself asked me how to remove the character and model files out of the Navy Seals mod so he could use them in his own. That's all the proof you need right there that he's no modder just a copyright infrigment expert if the copyrights were applicable. Like others have said Loth I strongly urge you to add a disclaimer to the read me file in your |MP| mod that your work is not to be copied or duplicated in any manner without your written permission even though he will steal it anyway at least you have something even more to fall back on. The X1|Clan will in no way support, endorse or use this mod in any manner so mainman quit asking me to use Loth's and countless others work that you call your own on our dedicated servers you lazy bastard. If you all want to use a real mod download the |MP|Mod at www.mp.macclans.com or the X1|Mod at www.x1clan.com. Now how's that for shameless self promotion? =P

The X1|Clan - Xcalibur 1