So what can we do?

[*DAMN Elandrion]

Eight, i'm not really interested in discussing, or even trying to find explanations for events with you that happened quite a long time ago, and which are in my eyes very minor matters. I also want to point out, that I didn't say that I am just, but the BL admin team has to be just and objective. Sometimes, justice doesn't mean following the laws by the word, but doing the right thing. I don't know why you are always complaining on BT's ban for one season. A season is really a ridiculously short time, which could have been spent better than on nursing anger and hatred.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

A season is really a ridiculously short time, which could have been spent better than on nursing anger and hatred.

Most of BTs are Americans (not all, but most)....didn't you know that we invented nursing anger and hatred?  lol[/size]

[:D]

No GS, |?K| invented nursing anger and hatred.  Me to be specific

Or did you forget all my feuds?  lol  
 
                                            -|?K|*Rapid*

[BTs_GhostSniper]

No GS, |?K| invented nursing anger and hatred.  Me to be specific

Or did you forget all my feuds?  lol  
 
                                            -|?K|*Rapid*

Oh yeah.....sorry I tried to take claim on your invention.[/size]  

[Brain]

* Brain feels the urge to step in and make a comment

* Brain thinks better of it, steps back and reads all the evidence, even evidence that is not available to the public any more

* Brain steps back foreword to the keyboard after making his decision.

god damn. i hate to say this, but alaric is right. this leag is tearing it's self apart at the seams, and you know what?  Buccaneer told me (and alaric) this was going to happen before he even announce his resignation as an admin.  

everybody has been trying to pussyfoot around and not step on toes until this point, but this league is like a broken bone that was never set straight. no amount of coddling is going to help it. the only ways to fix it are to rebreak or amputate. time to break some toes.

the problems i have seen in my numerous seasons watching silently from the GG mod position
these are ALL OF EQUAL SEVERITY

mauti being around almost never.
  i had to listen to Bucc bitch every night about how he tried to contact mauti for at least 3 full months, and i know from personal experience that unless a crisis is beyond the point of no return the odds of getting a response form mauti are so damn unlikely they might as well be 0 (note, mauti is here, crisis is also well past point of no return... hmmm...)

moderators voting along continental and clan lines instead of the good of the league
civic voted no on almost every single issue unless it was proposed by a european source. the now infamous bts mp5 decision was surprisingly predictable (only one mod voted against my prediction), and then the publicaly popular mp finals system got tabled to death by  euro mods who did nothing using the  'we need mauti's approval' tactic (which has been hauled out as a stop block for several seasons now when ever something unpopular to a minority of mods is proposed)

the chronic inactivity of mods
i'm not sure how bad this was last season because i had stopped caring enough to check, but in previous seasons, decisions were made by a grand total of 5 maybe 7 moderators.  how many did we have at 1 point? 14?

the unwillingness to take firm punitive action against moderators who are out of line.
if the mods step out of line the most they ever get is  slap on the wrist. there is no incentive for anyone to not vote for their buddied or in their own best intrests. the admin zone was like a old boys network and you looked out for your buddies... it's been that way even way back to the whole six nixson fiasco (which i would be more than willing to let rapid elaborate on.  the only difference is that now the league has become something to float along on on your power trip as opposed to a ship that needed to be guided through the waters as far as the admins are concerned.

the over proliferation of mods
this has become a problem since the BL no longer needed to be updated by hand.  back when it was a manual system, a small group of mods updated it regulary, and also made decisions for the league. with the occurrence of the automatic system, the number of moderators could have been drastically reduced.    why wasn't it?     the result was a bunch of people who became out of touch with the every days needs and desires of the battle league and felt the need to make things for themselves to do...  if we can decide things in the GG in under 10 posts most of the time, why the hell can't they do that in the bl forum? why the hell do you have to have a 50 post thread debating the semantics of one little sentance?  greater numbers of people leads to a drastic slowing of the administrative process... just look at congress and see what i mean.


lack of respect by the players  for players, the game, and the league

the anything to win attitude is killing the league with tactical CB's, camping, glitching and out right cheating. who the fuck cares how it got here, it needs to go. now.  even if this league dies, no form of organized mac gaming can survive with this attitude amongst it's participants


these are the things that i have seen in my long tenure here as a member of the damn community.  not all admins are guilty of all the points here, not all players are guilty of my last point. but by in large they are, and if you think for one second that you are exempted form considering changing your ways because i am not talking to you you are dead wrong. i should have said something about this a long time ago, but i didn't because i became apathetic and tired of trying to change all the dumbasses who paraded themselves daily through GR and the GG. now those same dumbasses are ruining the damn league, a league that i no longer consider my self a part of. not because i left or anything, but because the league has pushed me out, and i consider this partially my responsibility.  so i'll ask you now

what did YOU do to kill this league?


[/color]

[BTs_Mysterio]

Since brain said it all, I say this. I second that on brain.


P.S. Jesus I just saw GS and Rapid talk to each other, how disturbing.

[|?K|*Rapid*]

Brain, for as many times as I have seen sides of you that I personally didn't like, this is a side of you, that I can only wish was out there way long ago...

As much trouble as I have communicating at times, due to the fact I don't want to type so much, or lose thought due to not being able to type as fast as my brain's thinking, you have very nicely pointed out flaws that have been steadily floating over this league for way too long.  And as much as some would like to say "Rapid and his clan aren't even involved in this league", well, we were the most active back in the day.  Kinda like how BTs did it.  Except they did it in Ghost Recon, and we did it in Rogue Spear.  It is very much true how the feuds that linger around the league now, are pretty much the same problems we had back in the day(sorry to make any of you feel left out that got here with GhR).  There was your normal personal feuds, as there were your clan feuds.  There were crooked BL Admins, which thankfully, thanks to an old member of these forums called *DAMN Bondo, was taken care of.  Brain asked me to further elaborate on SiX Nixon, so I will   This guy, not only was hard to understand, since he was euro, and typed like a 5 year old (don't get offended Nixon, just a proper comparison for the readers to understand), but had an attitude from hell!  Always the "I'm a veteran and you're a noob, stfu" attitude.  Not that, that was his worst characteristic, but the fact he was a BL Admin was.  Obviously, if Mauti had  been as active in RS, as he was in R6, he might have seen this side of Nixon, but since like nowadays, he was inactive in the game, he couldn't see it.  On the other note, Nixon would PM Mauti thru these forums, and act all goodie hall monitor.  Mauti of course, would simply go by what Nixon said, and not by experiencing things himself.  Well, I was one of those fellas, that didn't take lightly that whole "STFU I'm a veteran and you're a noob" attitude, and would let Nixon have a piece of my mind day in day out if I had to.  So yeah, a feud was formed between me and him.  It escalated to him getting so frustrated by it, that he decided he wanted to win the feud, by banning me and my clan from the BL League, which he thought he had so much power over, which often many Admins do, when given this power.  Well, too bad for Nixon, that I wasn't as stupid as he looked, and I logically thought about this being the "*DAMN Battle League", to talk to other active *DAMN's, since Mauti wasn't active.  *DAMN Bondo was active at the time, and very nice fella I might add.  I told him now Nixon simply had deleted our clan from the league, simply because he had beef with me(beef = conflict, for you non-lingo knowing foolios ), and of course, Bondo saw this as way out of line.  Might I add, that Nixon had taken this feud so far, he would bad mouth me and my clan to other "veterans" in hope of all of them hating me and my clan as well.  It was then *DAMN Bondo who stuck his neck out for me and my clan, and like I told you, a lot of the then "veterans", had this thing to hate |?K| and myself due to Nixon.  Well, that didn't stop Bondo from laying down the law and booting Nixon, but then Bondo started catching heat for sticking up for us.  Eventually, Bondo got harrased so bad, he left these forums, as you now don't see him around.  Kinda like me and my clan.  We get harrassed, but we still get the job done.  A lot of it was because I was dumb enough to take on all the stereotypes back in the day, thinking I could change them for the better.   lol, far from it.  Just developed more enemies.  lol, nothing I can't handle though.  What, couple of gamer enemies?  Np, see em in the battlefield where I can spread their blood on the ground.  But that's besides the point.  My point here being, that the same things that used to not let the League run smooth back in the day, are things that are lingering around here still, and it's leading to people to get pissed off and leave, more or less how our clan did.  Trust me, we're ready for the next league to start up to compete again.  But to involve yourself in this, and have to go thru the same bs all over again...    Yeah, talk about a way to waste your precious time here on earth eh?   We're all competitive, and we all know what formulas have worked in the competitive world.   I just don't think Mauti is one to run this, being that he's a scholar, and not a competitive day in day out gamer like the ones that have evolved around our Mac? community.   A new league is due, and to get back on track to the formula, elder more experienced and mature League Admins is what needed.  It's obvious the competitive side ALWAYS take over everybody, and I do mean everybody.  So there's no way you should ever put a youngsta to be a referee.  You wouldn't see a 14 year old referee in a football game?  Ok then, don't have a 14 year old, or one that thinks like one, administrating the league.  There's obvious older fellas that can handle the job, yet you always want to pick simply the active ones, which doesn't equal to the proper help to handle the job accurately, as history has shown in the past.  It's still too little too late, and a new League with new faces running it, is due.  This one will linger away with the virus that ate it apart, from the inside out.  

I hope you don't take too much offense to this mauti, since it's something I've numerously tried to tell you.  It's too bad it takes action, rather than words to change things...

Hopefully you'll become an active competitor in this virtual arena you tried to build.   See ya out there, and hopefully laying in your own blood after I shoot ya! (that's just my competitive side showing, no offense )

                                                                                                                 -|?K|*Rapid*

[Aramarth]

This thread is funny to me. Not really for the content, more for the sake of irony. As a result of the widespead comments regarding the lessening fun level of our league, a complete overhaul is being developed. I can't promise anything, but by the second week of season 9 it is quite possible that you may all regret spending so much time in this thread. The "tactical cb" should be gone, and the number of cbs should increase dramatically. I've probably said too much already, but I couldn't resist giving you a chance to reevaluate your efforts at typing the same complaints again using different words for the coming weeks.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

This thread is funny to me. Not really for the content, more for the sake of irony. As a result of the widespead comments regarding the lessening fun level of our league, a complete overhaul is being developed. I can't promise anything, but by the second week of season 9 it is quite possible that you may all regret spending so much time in this thread. The "tactical cb" should be gone, and the number of cbs should increase dramatically. I've probably said too much already, but I couldn't resist giving you a chance to reevaluate your efforts at typing the same complaints again using different words for the coming weeks.

I don't think anything you change in Season IX is gonna matter to me.  Last I heard, the BattleTek Squad wasn't coming back for Season IX.[/size]

[BTs_Mysterio]

GS, shhh. If they maker it better, we'll just have to see who is best.

[Noto]

Wow, some of you guys get real "uppity" about video games.  I mean, it's nice to have a loving community wherever you are.  But is it possible that as each of us grow older we might actually change our views about things? Video games and the things that come with it perhaps?  Some of you guys just take this all a wee bit too seriously.  And by the way, I'll never get those 10 minutes back that I spent reading this thread.  Shame on me.

.::|N| Noto

...off to do something productive...

[spike]

...and yet you took the time to reply, thus wasting more time.



I have to say, I do enjoy playing games like Halo and CoD more and more, simply because I can play for hours, anonymously. The only thing that defines me are my kills and my score count, unlike on GR.

If this whole thing is reaching the point of no return, why not back off for a season? Suspend the *DAMN battle league for a whole season. Let people play, really play the games, and be driven by the desire to play the games and have fun. Then restart the DBL, and hope that people have gained a little bit of perspective.

[Saberian 3000]

To be honest I have always been for the DAMN BL myself but I must admit these last two seasons have been quite shit when it comes to the admins adding their own things to the rules halfway thru the season.  Hopefully season 9 will be a better one because I for one cant stand this bullshit anymore.  It's obvious there is a problem here with the BL and the admins in many senses are not taking responsability for the issue.  And from what I have seen it dosen't seem that it is going to get better.  The main issue that I have is earlier I was told that there is a set of rules prohibiting admins from abusing their power.  No offense, but unless we are able to see these rules, who is going to point out when an admin goes beyond these scopes of their authority on these issues? Another admin?  I dont think so.  In any event the admin that catches them is most likely going to abuse that same rule to further their power ability.  The thing you guys can do for season 9 is to open the admin threads to the public again.  This only has furthered the mis-trust of the public on this sense and enforcing the fact that admins cant be trusted to do the work on the league that they are supposed to.  I am sorry DAMN but in this sense if everyone is not allowed to be objective on the issues then we might as well just hang this league up and do something else.  

You admins say that you have this all handled?  I am sorry but that is obviously far from the case because of the present issues that have been happening within the league.  I know it dosent help with mis-information from other people but the only people that actually know about that are the ones that can be involved in it, and since this is a league for the public then it should be given every consideration and thru the public and not biased admins.  Admins should at least be voted on by the public.  This way if an admin is chosen by the public, only the public will be to blame.  

See, a perfect example is what Aramarth said in his last statement about the league going to change.  Well, shouldnt that be something that is thought of by the people that experience the problems and not the ones that obviously failed to attempt to solve them?  In any event, every season there has been issues.  I am not denying that.  What I am troubled about is that the admins think that they can solve this by giving us less information on the happenings within the league.  We should be more informed on what is going on and not less informed in that sense.  We shouldnt have to wait until the first day of the league to find out these new rules, and go thru a whole season of wasting our time to find out if they work out or not.  Elandrion, I have nothing but respect for you, but can you honestly say that we should believe in these ideas when you guys dont even trust us enough to at least be able to debate the issues before the seasons start?  And the only way we can deal with these issues is to have them right in front of our faces.  Ya see, the admins were picked by the main clans of that season at that time.  Things have changed now and let's face it, what was once a good idea seems that it was only put in place to quell the populus and not for the good of the league.  If that was the case then a new admin would be repicked every season depending on who was the top 6 clans at that time.  It all seemed cut and dry at first, but the longer an admin stays into a position, the more likely he is going to become a biased admin.  You can pick your friends  to be admins, but that again, does not solve the issue since this league is for the public and not your friends alone.  So in that sense a new admin should be chosen every season to add new perspective to the admin frontline.  And if that clan is within the top 6 over and over then the admin should only be able to serve 2 seasons in a row.  Then a new admin should be chosen from the top clan.  This will keep admins more in check as well as making better decisions for the populus overall.  Plus the admins get burnt out as well.  This is an issue that needs to be addressed as well as letting all of us know these rules that admins have to follow.  Therefore eliminating any issues that may present itself in the future with admins abusing their power.  i just dont understand what the justification was of not letting us know that there was some guidelines set down for the admins to follow.  That does not make much sense to be honest.

:MoD:Saberian

[*DAMN Mauti]

Well said Sab.

I gonna post the admin guidelines here as a sticky soon.

About the rules and that you aren't able to view them before the season starts. One big problem is that I always set the date for the new season when things have been discussed. Now we have set dates for the season so we have a certain time period inbetween and can work early on the changes. E.g. for season IX all changes will be announced in early/mid august 2 - 3 weeks before the season starts.

Indeed the many rule updates during a season are annoying, and I really hope that we can avoid this in the coming season by having now enough time until the season starts.

Making the Admin Zone public: in some points you are right but for all banning discussions or other penalty discussions you are wrong. If people could see who voted for a ban or not would cause bad flaming.

About the admin structure: I'm already in the process of restructuring the tasks of the admins. However one reason why it is easier to have admins for rule discussions is that you only have to discuss with one guy who is/should represent the ideas and opinion of his clan.

Bye,

Mauti

[BTs_FahQ2]

Hmmm,

After reading and experiencing season upon season of debates, rules and crap and so forth.  I could care less what is really done about admins, decision and who exactly makes them.

I think this is the sole issue since the beggining.  You can have a set of rules for anyone to follow no matter who sets them upon this league. But for fucks sake, make them rules.  I could care less who comes up with them, but as long as I play in the league, I want them to remain the league rules.  I agree that democracy helps and more opinions can expand the league, but all of this goddamn indecision and flexability is ruining just about everything.

JUST STATE THE RULES.  Goddammit, put them forward and stick by them.  This is the result of so much shit.  State them at the beggining of a season, rule upon them, and if they are fucked, change them later.  This is getting too bitchy, too gay, and too political.  If you can't live by these rules then goddammit leave.  Rule with an iron hand.  This is getting way too opinionated.  

I am sorry if this is just me, but I just wish to compete by a set of laws that I can feel will be stuck by.  This has not happened in a while, people have not stuck by this code.  We need some ass whooping when these laws are broken.  This has all gone a bit too far concerning feelings, justice and so on and so forth.  

IF you make the laws we need to adhere to, then we can obide by them if they are ruled justly upon.  But when laws change intermitently without probable cause, then I could care less about the fucken laws.  Why? because they can change without me knowing, caring or fucking having a right to them.  

Just have some sense.

So set the laws, rule on the laws, and live by the law.  If something is wrong with them, well then adjust.  This is just plain ridiculous.

[Noto]

Fah,

You are of course completely right when it comes to the rules in regards to at least following what has been stated.  I feel that this upcoming revision of the rules will help to discourage "loophole seekers" and to make it blatantly clear what a rule means, and what the consequences are.  If you have noticed, the rules have grown considerably longer, but this is mostly due to retroactive behavior from the community, specifically the Admins.  I hope that for all of you that participate in Season 9, the rules will really help to keep things in line.  But alas, you will always have the cry babies, the moaners, and the bitchers.  Personally, I agree with the iron hand method.  I do not think that our "community", or whatever it is, is so small that we cannot simply boot and ban at the slightest infraction.  My feelings are that some people need to be made an example of and we shouldn't think twice about it (especially whether or not we hurt their precious feelings).

.::|N| Noto

[Saberian 3000]

I have to agree in many parts with Noto and fah.  They are correct in the fact that there needs to be specific rules to adhere by.  As far as I knew that is why Noto was creating these new rules for all clans to follow.  Which makes sense.  I can also see where Mauti is coming from in that sense as well and what you say makes sense, although we should at least be able to see the posts, even if we cannot reply to them.  That way we will know if there is an issue that we should know about.  I know that everyone wants to make the BL a better place to play cb's and what everyone here is saying are definitely concerns that should be dealt with.  Hell knows I would love to see a set of rules that comes out that there are no loopholes, although if someone thinks about it hard enough they can find one.  That is why I was saying that about having the rules put to our attention before the CB starts.  this way people can look over it and report any possible loopholes that the creator of the rules might have overlooked.  That way less issues will present itself in the future during CB season.  

As for the admins, well, it's like having people in office too long.  Once that happens they become more biased or burnt out more then anything else and in the end it is better to take this out of the hands of the admins and force them to only serve a certain amount of seasons per session.  I used to hear about so many of the admins getting burnt out of serving on the BL and for this we shouldnt have to force them to resign.  Instead we should just make a term for them if they stay within the top 6 for over a certain amount of seasons.  Then at that time they should be replaced with another member of that same clan, as long as they remain in the top 6 during the end of finals.  the longer an admin stays into this position, the more likely they are to either become biased, corrupt, or burnt out all together.  And since in many cases the admins are good players in the community it would be a DAMN shame to have them quit gaming all together because they are just burnt out of the game and the issues that they have to deal with.

:MoD:Saberian

[Noto]

...although we should at least be able to see the posts, even if we cannot reply to them.  That way we will know if there is an issue that we should know about.

I hope I haven't taken this out of context, but Sab, normally I agree with you... especially when you make sense.  But allowing the public to see the Admin discussions will most likely (I haven't taken a poll yet...) do one or more of the following:

?   Create mass hysteria from those who don't know the whole story.
?   Simply branch off into other threads in the public forum enciting flaming and violence (U.S. only... violence that is).
?   And for an old saying, "Too many indians, not enough chiefs".   More interpretations of a dicussion in which most are not involved will lead to conspiracy theories, mass flaming, and definitely more time spent on the forums posting bull shit rather than playing the game.

I can understand the reasons for allowing the public to view Admin discussions, especially about rules and changes and such, but allowing such a thing would be  a swing of the pendulum to the other side.  I think we can all realize that not everyone here is on the same level.  I mean, ya know, we have some special people on these forums... like the Flanagan boy down the street kinda special.  I think the negatives would definitely outweigh the positives for public viewing of any discussions, even the rules.  Just think of how long it would take for anything to come to fruition with mass hysteria.

.::|N| Noto

[Mr. Lothario]

     There's always the alternative of making the admins' discussions visible (read-only, of course) after the discussion is closed. Open the system a little, without taking any control away from the admins.

[BTs_Mysterio]

Seeing admin posts would open up a feeling that we may actually know what's going on.

But I still ask where are admins like Horda, and Gambit?