So what can we do?

[Typhy]

One of the things that seperates the mac gaming community from the various PC communities is the friendship and respect that players hold for one another; not just friends within your clan, or even within a circle of clans, but friends all throughout the community.

When A2 joined TWL, I found some of the things we had to go through absolutely ridiculous. Pre CB screen shot sessions, all sorts of anti cheat things, an anti cheat mod for the game, which wasn't avalible for mac. Can't people not cheat just out of respect for their fellow gamers? Well, I guess that's a custom you can only find on GameRanger. Well that custom, in many forms, seems to be quickly disapearing.

Rogue Spear was perhaps the easiest game ever to glitch at. You could stick your gun through a wall, blast someone, and theoretically, unless they snapped a screen shot in the half a second they could see your gun, they'd have no proof that you glitched.

Ghost Recon, like Rogue Spear, had many glitches, however, aside from a few rotten apples, very few people took advantage of them. However, this small group of people eventually forced the Battle League to require various methods of cheat protection. From here, things took a turn for the worse.

The fact that there are ways of spotting glitches caused people to explore them more. Glitches became a weapon, a game within a game, even during CBs. Because of the large amount of glitching, the penalty for it was very small, thus people believe that if they do if effectivly, and only get caught one in five times, they'll be in good shape, where as if people knew that if they were caught glitching, they'd get banned for 12 months, they'd be less likely to test their luck. In my opinion, not having a more severe penalty for glitchers was one of the biggest mistakes that we've ever made.

My personal opinion is that what was once an insignificent glitch in a crator at Battlefield, has turned this community into the complete mess that it is today.

Cheat tests were the first thing to tear the community apart. Rather than having to respect your fellow gamers, and have a community based around respect, we had a community based around replays and cheat tests.

From that point on things got worse and worse. As the community gets larger and larger, people worry less about making enemies. 2 or 3 years ago, having 20 people mad at you may have meant having 1/5th of the community mad at you, where as now, it means 1/100th of the community.

Ok, now that we're done with my history assessment, on to what are, in my opinion, the major problems, and what we can begin to do to correct them.

1.) Lack of respect between players and clans.

2.) Finals for the Raven Shield ladder.

3.) The admins section being one big mess, whose sole purpose seems to be to get absolutely nothing done.

4.) Lack of respect for the *DAMN Battle League.

( Not in any specific order ).

1.) It's impossible for us to have the kind of ladder that we want without players and clans respecting one another. Yeah, we could make the battle league like TWL, where it's all about preventing clans from cheating ( or pulling cheap moves ), and where a clans only goal is to win. But I don't believe that's what we want. We want a league where we can pop onto GameRanger, find an oponent, and have a quick, fun CB, where most of the time is spent playing, not running cheat tests.

2.) In my opinion, finals are a stupid idea. They've worked out great on the Ghost Recon ladder, thanks to the dedication of many Ghost Recon players. However, after 2 seasons of Raven Shield, we're yet to have a round of finals that has gone through without 1 or more clans being knocked out by forfeit, and without major problems. Let's scrap the finals on the RvS ladder, things can still be great fun without them, in fact, in many ways, more fun. More people involved, less problems, more games. The ladder's a mess anyway, why add one more problem?

3.) For starters, I'd like to thank BFG for his excellent work. I don't think it's any coincidence that things have started to fall apart while he's gone. There are many problems in the admins section. The first is that clans, MP and c|, for starters, have decided that they're "entitled" to admin posistions. ( Nothing against c|, MP, Alaric or King of Pop, great guys coming from two very respectable clans ). People are picked for admin jobs because Mauti ( or BFG, now ) believe that they have the skills to handle the job, and that they're ready to do the work. You're giving up your job as an admin? Fine. Tell it to BFG, let him pick a replacement.

Secondly, Civic. I have nothing against Civic personally, but I think he's a horrible moderator. He will never accept that there are problems in the battle league. He blately ignores the admin guidelines, and votes in issues without becoming informed on them.

4.) This is a huge problem in my opinion. In the past, whenever there has been trouble, people have always defended the battle league, and worked together to help work out the problems. Lately I've been seeing members of this community, BTs Eight, and many others, come here talking about some new battle league they intend to start ( or so I gather ). You want to leave *DAMN? Start your own league? Go right ahead, but don't talk about it in the Battle League section of the *DAMN forums, that doesn't help anyone.

It's the job of every member of this community to help fix problems 1 and 4, and the job of the admins to fix problems 2 and 3.

Nothing will ever get done if we keep dodging around the problem. You got a problem with someone specifically? Don't hint it. Come out, say their name, and tell us your problem. I did it. I'll undoubtably catch a lot of shit for it, but if things are to happen, it has to be done. Don't just tell us your problem though, tell us what we can do about it.

Don't post a problem unless you've got some idea as to how to solve it. Let's not get carried away. Let's start rebuilding our community.


Added:

After talking with Eight and Harvey, from what I understand, MGL isn't so much of an attempt to "replace' the *DAMN Battle League, more an alternetive type of gaming experience, with various different ladders more like the BTL was. However, that said, I still think it'd be better if you left comments about it out of the BL section.

[BTs_eight]

How long have we been talking about problems?

I've said this before, i like Mauti & Elandrion... thing is... they have no time for this...

Things started to make a change for the better after the DBL was in direct competition with another ladder, the BTL... after we decided that the tests have been done we shut down the doors soon after the DBL aquired alot of the BTL features....

Then too much shit kept happening, and a lot of people are now pissed... New rules coming? For me it's more like "too little, too late"

Let me pick at your 1-4 problems

1: No matter what there is always going to be a lack of respect. You got some good competition and shit talkin sometimes is apart of the game. Other times its a bunch of noobs trash talkin for no reason.... No matter what you put 150 peoople into a rooom and let them see each other day in and day out... names become friends, and of course youll make enemies.
I remember we were having a good cb witht his clan one day, and because both clans saw the rules diffrent, both clans then started to mouth off... shit happened when each side stands there ground. Shit talkin will always be around competition

2: Finals for RvS Ladder.... don't take it out. Last season we were off to a good start till 1 thing fuckt it all up.... this season July 4th.... Maybe better planning?

3: I don't know how to fix that problem... it's fuckt beyond belief... and for the record before BFG left shit was falling apart... actually while you was still an admin shit was falling apart.

4: Lack for the respect of the DBL... I wont touch that one... I thought i was the only one hence my ban... oh an also Stripes but thats a diffrent story cheating is disrespect to not only any LEAGUE but to the players on that LEAGUE itself....


Does it take the MGL to make the DBL finally move forward or finally put it out of its misery...

[Typhy]

1.) Why does there have to be? Why didn't there used to be? You haven't seen shit talking until you've seen a 1v1 between Rebel and I. ( Btw, what was it, Reb? Something like "You're just another noob standing in the way of victory"? And then "Go to GR, tell everyone I'm never playing RS again" after I beat you?

Point is, I'm not talking about shit talking. That's part of the game, that's part of what makes it competitive. You'll notice that neither Rebel nor I camped or glitched in that 1v1. Why? Couple reasons, the first being that at that time, glitching in a 1v1/CB was about the worst thing you could possibly do. But what stopped me from doing one that he wouldn't even notice? Respect. I wanted to know, in my mind, that I'd beaten him. I didn't want to just see it on the ladder.

2.) Were you here before the finals system came into place? ( can't remember what season we started using it. ) You get the top 2 clans on GR in desperate searches for CBs, and then, often, to conclude the season, a match between them that decides things. Makes for an insane day of competition.

One of the reasons we went inactive this season is because we didn't want to have to deal with the finals. It's no fun to have times that you have to be on to CB. I'd like to see what the c| and BoC members think of the finals, since c|, MP5 and BoC are pretty safe bets to be there.

3.) That's ok. You don't have to fix the problem. That's BFG's problem, and I'm sure he'll find a way to clean things up once he gets back.

4.) Stripes and I get on fine, but I agree with you. He's been a discrace to the Battle League, his multiple attempts to cheat ( in various ways ) show complete disrespect for the BL.

If we don't have any confidence in our admins, and *DAMN as a whole then any attempt to get the battle league going will be dead before it begins.

[KoS Ultimo]

I don't think the system changed, the players changed.... without a doubt thats the problem. (go ahead, flame me bitches   )

[Typhy]

I don't think the system changed, the players changed.... without a doubt thats the problem. (go ahead, flame me bitches   )

:Flames Ult for stating the obvious:

[BTs_eight]

With the new players came a new system...

A NEW NEED... which is, in my eyes wrong with the BL...
Things move to slow to keep up with the games...

I mean we got games out now and DBL is only supporting 3?

[BTs_FahQ2]

Hrm,

Well, in rebuttle, without new players you essentially die.  I don't see how and why most of the "vets" are anti new players.  Without new players you have no life blood to keep you going.  In essence you are saying you should of just locked your community during it's "golden age" and danced around in your utopia thereafter.  But we both know people leave and unless more people come, you would be dancing by yourselves by now.

If you would ignore your ideal of when the DBL was great than you would realize that the main problem is dealing with the influx of players and how it affects the league. Unless the league has the ability to adapt and compensate, you would run into problems.  And this is where we stand.  this league is not doing that.

Typhy and 8 both have good points eventhough they don't agree on them.  But now we are faced with another battle within the admin section that obviously anyone outside of it has no clue what is going on.  So in short, the secrecy is just making you look weaker.  I can't say I know how to fix the DBL, but then you know we are off to do our own thing in an attempt to make something better.  I agree with typhy in using this platform for free advertising (notice I didn't use the name).  I thank the DBL for what it has done and given to us, I am just not sure it can provide it any longer without looking at itself from the top up.  And it seems a lot of people are asking this as you look through the many threads and flames.

[*DAMN Mauti]

But now we are faced with another battle within the admin section

Sorry both aren't admins. Typhy isn't an admin since the end of season VII and eight has handed over his job to LeeHarvey after season 6 or even 5.

But it is a good observation that they have all their bash and trash talking here at the *DAMN BL Forum. Maybe to keep the guys away from the BL who actually enjoy the BL, because I didn't read many if any complaints here from guys who actuallly played in the BL. All complaints are coming from guys who hardly or even didn't play at all this season. They just jump on Alaric's flame bandwagon.

Typhy at least tries to bring in some good points, although some of his critics are outdated since over 2 months. Few critic points are coming from his time as admin here but most of them have already been fixed.

Bye,

Mauti

[BTs_eight]

Hey mauti...

You really have no clue whats going on do you?
Uhh? We didn't play last season, but when was the last time you dealt with the BS? Season 4?

There is a reason why there is a flaming bandwagon dude...  Seriously man? Hows that G5 coming along that everyone donated to so you can get back into the gaming? How about just buying a g4 to play at least some of the games and deal with the BS....

Will rules be bent for you? Since you run the league? Will the admins sway their votes in your favor?

We dont even know do we.... Come back and GET a clue as to how your league is running itself into the ground...

[Supernatural Pie]

In essence you are saying you should of just locked your community during it's "golden age" and danced around in your utopia thereafter.

Hmm...

Now why didn't we think of that back then? What an excellent idea.

But now we are faced with another battle within the admin section that obviously anyone outside of it has no clue what is going on.? So in short, the secrecy is just making you look weaker.?

This is a huge point in my opinion. However, not only does the admin-only section make them LOOK weaker, it is actually making the entire league weaker.

It is my personal opinion that if people claim that the admins themselves are not capable (for whatever reason) to fix the problems, I think that all problems should be kept open to discussion with the public.

I think that the Black Ops section is just a way to make people feel higher than others, as it serves no useful purpose. It is only serving to hinder the public's ability to assist in solving the league's problems.

Mauti, by moving Alaric's orginal thread to the Black Ops section, what was that accomplishing? Perhaps instead of claiming that Alaric was only flaming, swearing, bashing, etc., then locking the thread and moving it to the admin-only section, you should have pointed this out, and then given Alaric the opportunity to rephrase or restate his problems, IN VIEW OF THE PUBLIC.






Overall, my point is this:

If there are problems that the admins cannot themselves solve, even though we expect them to, why aren't these problems open to discussion by the entire league?

Down with the Black Ops section.

[BTs_Mysterio]

The fact is we can't change the players, we just need to have responsible leaders who can recruit with some idea of who they are recruiting and not picking lemons from the apples.

["Sixhits"]

There is no solution. At least not a cookie cutter simple one.

We need to want it to work.  

If we get upset over rulings, if we're constantly knitpicking, if we loose our faith in the competence of the admins, well, where are we?

[|?K|*Rapid*]

wow, same ish, different year...  
Trust me, I was very much down for everything the *DAMN BL stood for, until I got a bad taste of it, with the flames, biased stereotyped views, etc.  Our clan was one of the more active and competitive clans around in our DBL days, until the DBL showed it's JR. High administrative attitude.  It was too bad none of the elder fellas, were able to ever fix anything.  Hell, they'd end up getting into it with the youngstas.  But that's a repetitive attitude behavior often played out, in us humans.  
   Eight and a couple of others, have pointed out some very good points about you Mauti.  Especially the involvement part.  I also agree you should be out there playing after you got everybody to feel sorry for you and donate you money for a G5 supposedly.  No pun intended.  The fact you never did, and the fact that you always went by what your personal close "buddies" told you, is why the DBL is where it's at.  
    Me and my clan are still waiting to see a better league rise up, and provide a better well contained environment.  Until then, we're happily CB'ing and playing for the fun and competition of it, in no league at the present moment.  And trust me, we're having fun, unlike what I see around here...
    Don't just look at all my points of view as negative ones upon this league, just a reminder there was others in the past, that did try and point these same things out,  and rationalize with you and other of these "admins" right and wrong.  From the people that try and cheat, to imature admins, to bad calls being made with nobody in their right mind taking proper action, to the manipulation of the whole league.  Yes, there was other of us that had a problem with this league, and were willing to try and help, but fell short after the JR High flaming and imatureness over ran this place.  And yeah, my character was stereotyped, and targeted, as I simply was the person involved most of the times killing those others in CB's.  But let the competitive edge that drives others to do things they shouldn't, be a lesson on what NOT to do in any future leagues.  

Even if it is too little too late...  
                                          See you when I see you  -|?K|*Rapid*

ps: what's up to all those that missed me
pps: -MP5-SNiPE, why don't you put in your signature, you've lost EVERY CB you've ever had against me

[BTs_Mysterio]

This next season will be interesting, MGL starts... Who will prevail?

[*DAMN Elandrion]

Hey mauti...

You really have no clue whats going on do you?
Uhh? We didn't play last season, but when was the last time you dealt with the BS? Season 4?

There is a reason why there is a flaming bandwagon dude...  Seriously man? Hows that G5 coming along that everyone donated to so you can get back into the gaming? How about just buying a g4 to play at least some of the games and deal with the BS....

Will rules be bent for you? Since you run the league? Will the admins sway their votes in your favor?

We dont even know do we.... Come back and GET a clue as to how your league is running itself into the ground...

This goes to all people that are complaining:
You don't really know what all the Admins, Mauti and Me are doing for this league. It is very hard to make democratic decisions on all the issues that pop up, which are just and objective. Trust me, this is not an easy task.

all of you also should have some faith in our good working admin team, that the internal problems will be solved as swiftly and thoroughly as the seasons issues were managed. there really is no need to bring discussions over minor differences in our points of views into the public. this would only complicate matters for you as for us.

Elan

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Enough with the admin democracy bullshit, it is time to revert to an admin triumverate, or better yet, a dictatorship. It is painfully obvious that the problem with the league now is that everyone is involved and that everyone wants to have a say in it - that is only things that will benefit their clans while ignoring the good of the league. It is time that we put the foot down an do away with having an admin for every clan. Pure democracy doesn't work and that is why no such pure democracies exist in the world today.

Anywho, since I have no idea what Mac Gaming has spiraled into in its present form, I will try to stay out of the old vs new debate. As for PC's not having communities, you are dead wrong... just because it isn't like this one doesn't mean they don't exist.

[*DAMN Mauti]

Moderator Insert: Typhy and Rapid are both banned for 24hours for spamming this thread with a flamewar.

[Mr. Lothario]

     Regarding the old vs. new debate, I tend to think that the end of the "golden age" is directly attributable to OS X. On the PC side, where there was no such OS disjunction, people still play RS. For us, OS X caused the death of RS. Had that not happened, had RS survived, many of the "old clans" and "old players" would still be around, playing RS (lord knows I would be). That community's focus on the game not victory-at-all-costs would have served as an example to the influx of GhR players who joined the DBL. As it was, the only example we could provide was "back in my day..." stories. Had RS survived, the transition from old to new would have been smoother than the violent upheaval that it was.

      But then, maybe I'm just an old-timer dreaming.

[BTs_eight]

Your JUST you said elandrion?

We got banned because we waited all weekend long to play the finals because we thought extentions weren't allowed.. come sunday evening to find out i have to play during the week...

If your so JUST about things... maybe you should all follow the rules that are written..

I mean, if someone was caught cheating, do you then discuss what u should do about it? NO the person broke the rules and its a ban....

If you don't add in your cbs before the finals.. it won't get counted right BECAUSE ITS A WRITTEN RULE...

How's it look when you guys change written rules all the time in order to "suit" someone... I mean... if one team didnt show up for finals... what happeneds then? You move the next team up, at least thats what history has shown.... AND until that day history was the ruling factor in all admin decisions... now it's just constantly changing...

I mean look, Last season we get banned because we told the admins to go shove the extention since they werent the ones up till 3 am in the morning WANTING TO CB.
Right before finals started there was a huge debate on us "Making the deadline" then typhy and his clan dont show to play and all of a sudden that whole "Deadline" chat that people were against us for didnt exist...

You see why i tell you your league is becoming shit.. becuase shit like this KEEPS happening season after season.

ITS JUST NOT FAIR TO SOME CLANS THAT KEEP GETTING SHAFTED

[Civrock]

If you don't add in your cbs before the finals.. it won't get counted right BECAUSE ITS A WRITTEN RULE...

that rule has been introduced right after the problem u're talking about... it didn't exist before.

becuase shit like this KEEPS happening season after season.

nothing like what u're talking about happened in this running season VIII yet. several, introduced after last season, rules are preventing it.[/color]