the pledge of allegance, uncontutional?

[Bondo]

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one"

That is the full quote, and it is based on the Utilitarian moral principle of maximizing general happiness.  The thing is, we have this thing called the constitution which doesn't give in to majorities if the minorities rights are violated.  So by this it would be right to make a change that a majority would find to be wrong.  Utilitarian morality doesn't matter in this case.  You could argue that it should be that way but it isn't...and IMO shouldn't be.  You can't ignore a few people's needs just because many want to.  Utilitarian works in some situations but not in broad reaching policy.

And in my post I never said what right would be,  I just said that whatever is right (regardless of me thinking Under God and the Pledge in general don't belong in public schools) should be decided at the moment as people are talking about it.

[theN00b]

Hmmmm, what this all boils down to is the need for good leadership. Someone that can get things done. In other words you need me. Vote me Tsar of the United States and I will make a cabinent out of gr members. Grifter, my good freind grifter will be in charge of supervising the production of sheep, Kilzo will be in my council of funk, I will head my war department and proclaim myslef dahli lama of the armed forces. Bondo will be in charge of executing people and will be givine the title of govornor of texas. Rapid will be in the graffiti council of doom and will be hence known as Darth Rapid. Zak will be in charge of Pot. And so forth. I am sorry but I had to do a unserious post. Now back to being serious. Kilzo you are a redneck, no offence, but Bush is a corporate lapdog. This Enron thing and Worldcom thing is of his making and his advisors. Dick Cheny is being investigated. The secretary of the army is being convicted of fraud by illegally raising energy rates in california when he worked for enron. Almost every single member of his cabneint is being investigated for corporate (white collar) crimes. Bush is terrible on the domestic front. Now there is talk about attacking a country that has not even transgressed upon us, Bush sucks in forign affairs. He is loosing support from the United Kingdom! The UK is supposed to be the U.S.s bitch! (figurativly speaking, Tony Blair loves the US) To say Bush is a good president is to say I think Hitler turns me on. (even though his mustache is kinda hot). This is Bush's career so far. Mediocre job at beggining, then 9/11. Makes some speaches, then he orders a war that beats the shit outta the Taliban(any president could have done that) Takes away some liberties for the sake of security. Those who give up liberty for security deserve neither- Ben Franklin (that quote has been said many times recently). The success in the recent US invaision of Afghanistan is attributed to Gen Tommy Franks. Bush gives the order to kick their ass the commandering genral does everything else. Corrrect me if I am wrong. FDR managed the country Eisnhower and Nimitz handled the war. FDR did not defeat them.

[Brain]

hey bondo, i know that's what kirk and spock say at the end, but i think spock says the shorter version earlier in the movie

[Bondo]

Cossak, putting me in charge of execution and making me Govenor of Texas is probably a bad idea.  Do you know how many of those damned Republicans I'd need to execute before they accept that execution of criminals is wrong?

[Brain]

cossak, what can i do? hopefully something fun. how about the propaganda department?

bondo, who's gonna miss a few politicians, after all, we'll be in charge

[Bondo]

Brain, get it right, it is the Ministry of Truth.

Me being the head of execution would obviously work for the Ministry of Love.

[theN00b]

Fine Brain you can be the Senior Homey G of propagnda, and bondo you re quite fine there. Hell if I care this will never happen in the first place. Hell be anything you want, supreame council of bitches and hoes.

[Precious_Roy]

Grift:This is why I like it more when your on my side, cause your smarter than me .  But that doesn't matter, cause i'm still a stubborn sonodabitch.

The fact that we are made to stand isn't just a recognition of respect for the pledge, it is complete justification for it.  Not right to make people speak, stand, sit, or shit for what they don't believe in.  Not in this country.

Of course in some places you don't even need to stand anymore.  In Falmouth Massachusetts for example, thanks to the protests of one girl, you no longer have to stand for it.  that girl is now attending Harvard University and has a writing deal with the prestiguous magazine that bondo reads religiously, High Times.

Bondo:  There are certain lines one should not cross with most any American, and I believe you have.  if for nothing else than to make you arguments more effective, don't call the US government fascist until we start toasting jews and gypsies.

Casper:  I bet you like "Born in the U.S.A" by Bruce Springstein alot too.  Did you know that that is a song about a Vietnam vet mistreated upon return to the U.S.? Problem is, he made the tempo a bit to fast, the lyrics too unitelligable, and the melody to positive, so everyone thinks a pro-US song when in fact it's a rather fierce tirade

Cossack: A little harsh, and lacking eloquence, but not altogether wrong.  Sorry man, though, grift gets my vote

Brain:Nothing is cut and dry, black and white.  Of course jimmy carter based his administration on that principle.  look where it got him?

Grift:part deuxPersonally i like "the hollow men" by T.S. Eliot alot more.  Ten times as beautiful and striking as the tripe  Francis Scott Key favors.  But maybe i'm just a sucker for anything concerning the failings of  humanity, and of course apocolypse, that too.

Ace:These simple, unimportant problem are the ones that affect the institution fundementally.  maybe not this one specifically, but issuees like this, issues like these as a whole.  the institutional questions must be, if nothing else, asked, before we tackle more important issues, say, our piss-poor healthcare system

All:"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one" -Jeremy Bentham

I find it funny that Bentham was an outcast and a general fuck-up.  He wrote that even as his needs were not the needs of the many.  he was an outcast, he himself "the one"

Roy:Shut the hell up Roy, the conversation is dead, and you've been typing for at least 20 minutes to long.  ::thwack, Roy gives himself a god blow to the head.::  Sure hope it does him some good.

[Grifter]

You... stubborn?? ?No... I don't believe it.... not for a second

As for those places... just more examples of courts overstepping their bounds:D

Personally... there are things that are just propper and things that are just not. ?I don't care what your opinion is of a country or a ruler... you should never spit on a flag... ours, theirs, nobodys. ?Even if you don't like the Queen of England, you should still stand when she walks in the room.... ?When they play the national anthym of any country, people should stand out of respect.

I'm not saying it should be a law to stand... or to say the pledge... because specifically... it isn't a law. ?And that's why the courts should not be getting involved in this at all... it should be passed to congress to make a law if that's what is needed. ?

But, we should still show respect and honor our traditions. ?

And if that girl that refused to stand for the pledge was in public school... she should have been kicked out and made to go to private school (just an opinion).... ?because you should show respect and gratitude to the nation that is organizing and providing that education. ?

[Brain]

roy, i know that not everything is black or white, i was simply using that strategy to simplify thewargument that i was making to eliminate extranous what ifs that ?would have detracted from the argument and to illustrate the fact thet undergod cannot both be and not be in the pledge, thus leaving someone unhappy

also dont beat on yourself, that was a well written post that actually provided insight on this issue, unlike 99% of the rest of our posts

[theN00b]

What the fuck are you talking about, where did you get the fucking idea I was to god damn fucking harsh? Anyhow, I agree with Grifter (King of da Sheep) that standing for the Quenn of England, standing for the pledge is an act of respect and human decency. I also think that this is a very small issue in our nation today. There are more serious things now a days including this recent epidemic of large corporate bakrupcys and execuative corruption and the effec of private intrest or special intrests in our government i.e. the new Oil Boom. To argue over such an insignificant thing is immature. The dumbass jundge in San Francisco will be overturned soon and there is nothing stopping it. A little bit of religion never hurt anyone. A lot of religion is dangerous though. (points to bible belt freaks up in the midwest) Was that elequen enough for you, ya god damn sonofdabitch?

[Mr. Lothario]

    Large companies going bankrupt is not a problem. The fundamental necessity of capitalism is failure. Companies who cannot compete fail. They go bankrupt. They die, to put a Darwinistic slant on it. Then, more capable companies/competitors/organisms step to the fore to take their place. Competion continues, and life is good for the consumers. Amtrak, which is a repeat failure kept alive by government payola, is a perfect example. A real competitor could run the trains more effectively and make a lot more money doing it.

    The problem with the Enron failure was the shafting of the employees. The company can die and rot for all anyone cares, but the workers need the money that they sold a portion of their lives for.

[theN00b]

That was kinda what I was refering too. The shafting of the employees. Going bankrupt is perfectly constitutional, but fuckin your employees is not only unconstitutional but a sleezy dipicable thing to do.

[Ace]

While Enron screwing over its employees was pretty dick, there was nothing unconsitutional about it. Unlawful, yes. Unconstitutional, no.

Roy, I think you misconstrued my point. This is no grand institutional dilemma that will significantly harm anyones life or set horrible precedents that will have kids praying in schools one day or something like that. This is simply some jackass getting his panties in a knot over two little words that, like it or not, are an undeniable part of our American culture and tradition. Interestingly, I just read in the paper this morning about the mother of the child contesting the decision. The mother and father are not married (never were I believe) and the mother has legal custody. Hopefully her sanity will helpturn over this ruling.

[Brain]

when i heard this on the radio today, my jaw just about hit the floor

remember that jerk who started this whole mess about the pledge by filing the lawsuit in his daughter's name?

well, it turns out that isn't her legal guardian, in fact, he was never even married to the childs mother. but that's not the good part
the mother and child have said that they have no problem with the words under god in the pledge of allegance and say that they are embarassed about the whole thing

for thos of you wondering why the daughter was involved in the first place, heres why
the law does not allow you to sue on theory, you need to have been harmed in some way. since our 'concerned' father couldnt say he was harmed, he filed in the  name of his daughter who he didnt even ask if she agreed with the position
this asshole filed the suit to further his own political and religious ambitions!

this moron deserves to be drug out into the street and shot...

[MacMan]

Welcome to the United States.
Each day is a soap opera.

[Typhy]

It doesn't help the Soap Opra that Bush is president.

[Precious_Roy]

Grift:The reason we should pledge to the flag is because we don't have to.

All:Social Darwinism sux0rs.  So does capatilism in the unadulterated form.  Lucky for us we have fuzzy capitalism! w00t!

Maybe we can go Svedish and get some Socialistic Welfare state capitalism.  That's ?berfuzzy, and such the way to go.

[Typhy]

23 more posts 'til you get to 200, Does anyone know what the record for most posts is for a topic?

[Brain]

less than 200
189 i think and that one was started by grifter if i remember right