Thankyou

[Brutha]

Yeah, GS. There are other scumbags out there in this world. Both China and Korea are treating ppl badly and breaking many human rights. This thread on the other hand was not about Korea or China, but Guantanamo Bay. You want to make a "complain about China" thread, i'll join you there. But this is about the way America has treated it's prisoners. You can dislike my feelings as much as you want, but you know what?  I DO CARE about how you get your info, because it's inhumane and something I had hoped we had grown out of a long time ago. Guess it's my socialist upbringing that corrupted my moral sense so that I actually care what happens to so called terrorists.

[DarK.]

There should be certain Christian morals out there and general people morals that stop torture and all the hate.  I agree with Brutha and BFG that what goes on at Guantanamo Bay is quite wrong.  Kind of like the Iraqi Prisoner abuse scandal, wtf were those guys thinking? Honeslty,  they are in the express lane to hell by doing that.

[seth]

Honeslty,  they are in the express lane to hell by doing that.

for people torturing, there's neither a heaven nor a hell.

[DarK.]

how do you say that, what are they going to stay in a spiritual Limbo for forever? no they are going to suffer like the evil people that they are.

[.PaS. Haunted]

Reading this thread there is a few things i'd like to add... I fully understand GS's views, his country was attacked, and the americans want justice... With that said, Guantanamo is NOT justice, it is inhumane. What i would expect America, as a role model for the whole world (like it or not the U.S. is the role model of most ppl) Is to be the ones to say... well maybe these ppl are terrorists... maybe they helped the guys who did the WTC... But shouldn't america be the first to treat them humane? shouldn't they take the first step, it is a country capeable of doing it. As long as they ignore human rights they are no better than China or North Korea... I would expect america (since all the americans i know, are great ppl) To take the first step, and then let the other countrys follow... But as it looks now... The U.S. Have no hope of stopping terror... All they do is give it new tools...

I remember we had a Dane in guantanamo... He was visiting his native country (Iran) when he was arrested (In iran) on behalf of the U.S. There was given no proof at all... He was kept there for a long time, untill denmark negotiated his release... Hell being trapt in Guantanamo, i would not be surprised if those guys now actually join the Taliban...

Haunted out (for now)

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Haunted out (for now)

I wonder if Haunted knows you can't have pictures in your signatures here...[/size]

[.PaS. Haunted]

Haunted says sorry and it is removed... 

[BFG]

Amazing avoidance of the subject again... But anway

Bobby:

b• Being kept in isolation for 18 months in a windowless cell: not relevant at this point
• Not being able to go outside to exercise etc. : some things are worse than that
• No guards (replaced with cameras) to prevent any form of human contact - complete isolation. not relevant at this point
• Repeatedly injected with an unknown substance that triggered psychosis: that, in my opinion, shouldnt be allowed without proper medical attention, wich i'm pretty sure they didnt get.

 i'm not as concerned about what is being done to those guys as i am worried about them not having legal advice. Another way to put this is to say that as soon as its a fact that the guy is a scum, wether or not you beat the shit outta him is not going to make me cry. But you gotta be sure its a bad guy first !

A lot of people are very very worried Bobby. Not sure if you can comprehend what it is like to be put in solitary confinement and unable to leave your cell etc but most people consider it to be a extremely nasty form of torture - and there is great concern for the Psychological state of the recently released men.  Im just going to keep on saying this though - you Reap what you Sow. IF your going to treat people - innocent or guilty like this, then why the hell should the 'terrorists' treat anyone any better? If this is the example that America is going to set why are so many people surprised when other countries/people follow its lead?

[Abe 2.0]

This is kindof like the debate about the death penalty. The way I see it, if there was a way of proving somone 100% guilty of a heinous crime, i dont see any problem with the use of the death penalty. Our judicial system is fallible however and there will always mistakes made and thus innocent people will be executed. That is unacceptable and thats why i oppose capital punishment. The same goes for the people at Gitmo. If there was a way of knowing for sure that they were terrorists intent on harming America and its citizens, i wouldnt really care what happens to them, as long as they get what they deserve. But it is difficult to determine whether any one of these prisoners is a terrorist or just some afghan peasant against whom somone had a grudge. Remember that during the war in afghanistan, any arab found there was considered to be al quaida-and i think its safe to say that a lot them were.....but some of them could have been at the wrong place at the wrong time. I would guess that at least 50% of the people there just had bad luck and don't belong there.
I remember reading an article a while back (in the economist i think), where one of the gitmo detainees said he'd be willing to stay there if they brought his wife and kids over too. Thought that was kindof funny.
You guys should all watch this documentary http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/khadr/-its about the canadian guy whose family was involved with al quaida, but who ended up becoming a CIA spy at guantanamo. Its totally fucked up.
If america treads on human rights, civil liberties and personal freedom in the name of fighting terror, even if we kill or capture every terrorist shitbag on the planet, it will be a puric victory.

[BFG]

If america treads on human rights, civil liberties and personal freedom in the name of fighting terror, even if we kill or capture every terrorist shitbag on the planet, it will be a puric victory.

IF america did that then it would have to kill and capture the very shit bags that are allowing this to happen.

[DarK.]

From the Great www.dictionary.com Terrorism - The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person[/b]  Hmm, threatened and did use force in Guantanamo bay.

people or property

  this includes people accused (but not convicted) of terrorism.




These acts in Guantanamo bay are acts of terrorism in themeselves, they are doing inhumane things to the prisoners.  (I wont even mention the threats and unlawful use of violence in the Iraqi Prison scandals)  I think our government needs to relook at the christian morals it was founded on.  We must not be terrorists first, then we can rise above the terrorists and acheive a better world.  One thing I have learned,  you can not sink to the level of the person you are against, then you are just as bad as they are, only by being the bigger person (and or country) can you succede against your foes.

[BFG]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4223561.stm