83 soldiers dead in 12 days

[BFG]

So lets just say it was the otherway round... The americans did a sudden attack on the Japanese fleet... pear harbour, and it drags the japs into the war they didn't want to deal with.
... The tides turn and the Japanese push towards america....

.... The jap's Drop two nuclear bombs, on new york and i dunno, washiton lets say - They kill several of hundreds of thousands of people, -- the number who are injured or who's health will be sevearly affected and lead to later pain suffering and death is innumerable.

Japan wins the war - and they justify their actions by saying - hell well we would have shot and killed a lot of your civilians when we invaded you so actually we did you a favor by using WMD's and murdering several hundred thousand people. you should say thankyou.

....

[Mr. Lothario]

     And those hypothetical Japanese would be right.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

You people are all acting so taboo with nuclear weapons. The fact of the matter is that it won the war for the US, preventing what would have been a costly invasion of the Japanese mainland to both sides. To prove my point, look at what happened on precursor invasions of Iwo Jima and Okinawa, two relatively unpopulated areas - both sides suffered mass casualties. An invasion of the Japanese mainland would have easily surpassed the number of casualties from these two invasions 4x due to the fortifications and the shear number of troops needed to land and set up a working beachead, then capture cities one by one until the military was crushed.

Back to the taboo thing about Nuclear weapons...you people are so blinded when it comes to war and casualty counts. If you want to find out what a true hell was, you should spend your time to investigate the Dresden firebombings which on some accounts killed more than 300,000 people.

[Brutha]

they did test on humans. here's a good site. take a look at all the test movies.

Was using sarcasm to make a point, but I can understand that it sometimes gets lost in the text.

GS. The reason for us forgetting that you are not some 14 year old watching TV and bringing everything up in the forum, is that your points sometimes go too far. We cannot believe an adult would say the things that you do sometimes. Irony or not.

As for the bombings, you assume the death toll would be higher, and I assume it would be lower. The problem here is that all argument are based on assuption because we simply cannot know what would be he truth. America dropped the bomb, and in retrospect I feel that it was wrong. Simply because this bomb affected civillians.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

GS. The reason for us forgetting that you are not some 14 year old watching TV and bringing everything up in the forum, is that your points sometimes go too far. We cannot believe an adult would say the things that you do sometimes. Irony or not.

Yeah, I've gotta start watching that more.  Comes from my sick sense of humor developed while I was in the military (Specifically in the Army).  When you train for years in tactics to kill other humans, it really does twist what seems funny to you.  

But hey, just try to get in my head more and see things the way I see them and then you'll be okay!  

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

[BFG]

When you train for years in tactics to kill other humans

Amazing isn't it. We are just fucking disguesting. as a species we are so bloody evil its astonishing... to think how much money, how much time and effort goes in to hurting and killing others. People dont even seem to think twice about it now. You read in the papers (or maybe not) about a war here, or a war there, a few thousand dead, or a few hundred thousand, people maimed, raped, slaugtered in their beds... but u become numb to it, we just don't think about..

You people are all acting so taboo with nuclear weapons.

Taboo? Ok like brutha lets put it simply. I find is sickoning that the US dropped the two nuclear bombs and murderd hundreds of thousands of people. They were not troops (on the whole)... they had little choice. I find is digusting how countries spend so much money and effort in their military, in their ability to murder other people. I find it disguesting how germany bombed london and killed so many civilians, and how Britain bombed dresden and other German cities and killed so many civilians.
I find it disguesting how al-quieda murdered so many people on september the 11th, and accross the globe i find it disgusting how many people were killed by saddamn in iraq, or how many people the US killed in Vietnam among others.

I find it disguesting that people are so willing to kill, so willing to hate and i find it astonishing how little we care.

Why don't we think about it? We should think about it more. Think about what implications your actions have, think about what you do and how it effects others. We live in societys that orientate around Money, Greed, Compertition, our societies revolve around looking after number one, f*ck everyone else as long as your ok. Dosn't matter about your neighbours if your ok, dosn't matter about the rest of the world as long as your corner of it is ok.

And our countries spend millions (some of them billions and some of them hundreds of billions) on inproving our effectivness and ability to Kill.

This world is so fucking disguesting i can't quite find the words to describe what i think.

[:MoD: bigtex]

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/
here is the link, don't know why it didn't post earlier. If you
really give a shit about either side in this conflict, you will take
some time and look at it carefully.  It's a good tribute.
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Taboo? Ok like brutha lets put it simply. I find is sickoning that the US dropped the two nuclear bombs and murderd hundreds of thousands of people. They were not troops (on the whole)... they had little choice.

You are a classical leftist peacenik who doesn't think of any context whatsoever when making statements about history. I advise you to look up several facts of the WWII Pacific theatre operations including American firebombing of major cities, and the invasions of Iwo Jima and Okinawa, then consider the possible results that would have happened if American troops had to invade and create beacheads, then march across Japan much like they did in France and Germany.

After you spend the time looking up that information, consider this: During the time of World War II, killing civilians were casualties of war, not "murder." Attacking the civilian population was a time tested and proven way to defeat hostile enemy nations because it put pressure on the rulers of the nation to either end the war or to achieve total swift victory (WWII Japan as an example of the first, WWII Britain as an example of the latter). Also lost in your leftist psychobabble is that you don't even know what Hiroshima and Nagasaki were. Hiroshima was a large military-industrial complex and home to Japan's southern defense forces while Nagasaki was a major arms factory as well as the major naval shipyard and harbor on the Japanese mainland.

Here is a map of the proposed U.S. invasion of Japan codenamed Operation Downfall. Look at how many beacheads the US wanted to establish and imagine the shear amount of casualties that would have insued. At landing points around Tokyo and Kyushu, the Japanese had over 900,000 army and mainland defense forces ready to execute their "Decisive Battle" strategy - to kill as many Americans as possible to force us to to cave into a conditional peace treaty. So how many lives do you think were saved by dropping the two Atomic Bombs now?

EDIT: link

[BFG]

You are a classical leftist peacenik

Why thankyou lol, could be a lot worse.

then consider the possible results that would have happened if American troops had to invade and create beacheads, then march across Japan much like they did in France and Germany.

Um i don't think u got my point... Killing civilians in order to save Soldiers... thats what im getting act.

Also lost in your leftist psychobabble is that you don't even know what Hiroshima and Nagasaki were. Hiroshima was a large military-industrial complex and home to Japan's southern defense forces while Nagasaki was a major arms factory as well as the major naval shipyard and harbor on the Japanese mainland.

..... and a very large population of civilians... 200+ thousand of whome were killed.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Also lost in your leftist psychobabble is that you don't even know what Hiroshima and Nagasaki were. Hiroshima was a large military-industrial complex and home to Japan's southern defense forces while Nagasaki was a major arms factory as well as the major naval shipyard and harbor on the Japanese mainland.

..... and a very large population of civilians... 200+ thousand of whome were killed.

I hate to be the one to have to tell you this BFG, but there probably wasn't a single innocent non-war producing civilian in all of Japan during WWII.  The Japanese were experts at having families build war materials in their own homes, then bring the items to larger places where they were built on more, then finally making their way to large factories that put it all together into airplanes, ships, and other arms.  If you can condone bombing a factory that is producing warplanes, then you also can not turn around and condone the U.S. for bombing population centers....those very civilian populations were turning out more war goods in their own homes than all of the factories combined.

So go think about that for a while.  By the way, this little secret during WWII is why the U.S. Air commanders (namely Jimmy Doolittle in Europe and Curtis LeMay in the Pacific) had no problem fire bombing large civilian populations....EVERYBODY was helping in the war effort!

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

[Cossack]

The Atomic Bomb was also a way to make Japan (or atleast part of it) not under the Soviet Union. Right after Nagasaki the Soviets invaded Manchuria and Korea in a very short amount of time. If the Americans invaded the Soviets probablly would have taken Hokkaido. They already had the Kuril Islands it would only be a short hop skip over. This would prevent a North Japan and a South Japan. I think it would have the same result as Korea and Vietnam.

["Sixhits"]

There are many ways we can spin the resolution of WWII. But it comes down to the fact that the winners write the history books, so the losers always seem like they deserved it.

It the hundreds of thousands of Japanese who died in WWII deserve to die? No. But did killing them help the US win the war? Yes.

When all it said and done, I want the US to win it's wars and I want the other guy to lose.

In regards to Iraq, I think we've fucked up and should get the hell out - we're not fighting that war for the right reasons. That's the essence of my dissent on Iraq. Now, as for Afghanistan, I think we need to be there and being there is good. So I think that Iraq is doubley stupid: it's a meaningless war and it distracts us from the real objective, controling Afghanistan.

[BFG]

 I think we've fucked up and should get the hell out

Problem is... to move out now in the state things are in would create a massive power vacume - giveing control and leverage to the very people that the US is trying to stop from getting a grasp.
however the way things are going... stay put and you make it worse

["Sixhits"]

 I think we've fucked up and should get the hell out

Problem is... to move out now in the state things are in would create a massive power vacume - giveing control and leverage to the very people that the US is trying to stop from getting a grasp.
however the way things are going... stay put and you make it worse

I'm feeling mood today, but ...

Let Iraq burn.

[BFG]

ok.... and provide a stronghold for Islamic terrorists etc to set up, exactly one of the reasons why the ivasion happened 'apparenlty'. In turn helping to destabalise the region even more, not to mention having a totally reverse effect than was hoped for

... not to mention the poor bastards who live there and have had their lives blown up.

["Sixhits"]

I know, I know BFG. I'm just frustated at it all. I can't see a path out that works. It's the architypical quagmire.