Part 1 Season 5: Combat Point System, Finals, Season length

[c| Splinter]

Okay, here's my 2 cents:

Challange System:
I'm not completely sold on the challange system.  Sure we had plenty of people dodge CB requests from us, but almost every night that we went out looking for a CB, we found one, one way or another.  Had a few dry spells here and there, but all in all not too bad.

The worst thing about the finals this season was trying to coordinate a scheduled CB.  I realize for the finals, it had the be that way, and that's fine, but now extending that to the whole of the regular season, oh man, i already have a headache.  Trying to get another team, and more often our own team (and plz take no offense to this c| guys) to commit to a time to play a video game is like trying to grab a greased pig.  No one I know wants to plan their video game playing time that far in advance (including myself).  What if i feel like watching TV at that time, and don't feel like playing.  It's a video game...you feel like playing it, you turn it on, you don't feel like playing it anymore, you turn it off.  

Having to go to my team every single time we challange or get a challange, and find out who can be there at such and such a time, and then hoping they show up.  Being a clan leader and the guy responsible to coordinate all of this, i can feel the ulsers coming already.  That's the beauty of GameRanger and the Mac community.  You come online, you see some clans with the .cb tag, and then you go for it.  Yeah it always takes some time to get the ball rolling, but i think it would take even more time and WAY more of a hassle to try to coordinate all of these CBs in advance.


Season Length:
I'm liking the shorter season length idea.  c| definitely ran out of steam at about the mid way point, though to keep people training on the tight of a schedule for that long.  As for the finals, this is just a tough one all around.  Scheduling these CBs was a major headache, but actually shortening the time frame to get them done may work out for the better.  If you say, hey these are the 2 days, be there or tough, then it might pin people down to being there, instead of giving people a week to think about when they want to play.


Point System:
Oh man, i am beyond lost in this part of the conversation, but it seems that the masses are happy with the ideas so far, so keep up the good work guys!  what i do like is bringing back points for bigger CBs...was sad to see that go in season 4.  once i go thru all the info on the point system a couple of more times, i'll post some opinions on that.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Splinter, I'll try to break down the Combat Point System as it stands so far.

Each clan has a place on the ladder, based upon the points they've earned, just like it is now.

Each place on the ladder has a value assigned, called Combat Points (also referred to as "purse points" in a few posts).  This value is assigned to the PLACE.  So, first place has 500 Combat Points, second place has 450 Combat Points, etc.

When you beat a clan, you get their Combat Points added to your total points.  So, if c| was in 2nd place, and beat |MP| in 5th place, c| would get 300 points (plus any bonuses for extra people).  If |MP| won, they'd get 450 points.  

When you lose to a clan, you take the loser's combat points and subtract the winners combat points.  If that value is greater then zero, it is subtracted from the losers total points.  If it is less then zero, it gets thrown out.  So, if c| beat |MP| with those same places, it would be 300 (MP's Combat Points) - 450 (c's Combat Points) so 300 - 450= -150.  Since this is less then zero, MP's didn't lose any points (because they lost to a higher ranked clan, as it should be).  If c| lost though, it would be the opposite.  450 - 300 = 150, and 150 would be subtracted from c|'s total score.

So, if c| beat |MP|, c| would get 300 points.  If |MP| beat c|, |MP| would get 450 AND c| would lose 150.  

You get penalized for losing to a lower ranked team.

This works with any place, just change the numbers around.  First losing to 10th or lower can really shake things up, because not only does the 10th place team jump up, but most likely, the 1st place team would get passed by other teams since they would lose 400 points.  It puts a much higher risk on CB'ing low ranked clans.

Hope that helps.

[BTs_eight]

Ok so then if i am in first place then i should stay away from cbing the lower ranked clans? Makes no sense does it? Or again i am not understanding it.

Why should i bargain off my 400 points? Just to some clan that started late or whatever? Or tactical... ladder use....

[Jeb]

one thing that i that you mentioned was a inactivity feature...
This was one of my early ideas with the system (you can see it in the bts ladder), so basically a clan can't sit on top...
You drop 10%, or 1/4th of their rank or something drastic like that for every 2 week increment that you don't cb, however i think that this feature should only apply to the top 10-15 clans perhaps, i see a whole lot of clans on the GHR ladder that would be reduced to fractions of a point because of inactivity. What this hopes to accomplish is to assist in inactive clans moving down the ladder.

I say no to a challenge system, its just a pain in the ass. I know that there will be a flood of bullshit and bitching because of missed challenges or people not knowing what is happening.  The only problem with a clan not needing to cb would be the #1 clan, because the #2 and #3 clans have to do some work to get into the top spot. I'm still working on some thoughts to kill this issue.

Some other ideas while for the scripts, it wouldn't be hard to throw in a little feature to show which clan has the longest (current) winning streak, most games won,  and anything else that could be of good mention.

[*DAMN Mauti]

First Eight yes you understand it right - cbing lower ranked clans is more risky than equally ranked clans! In the previous seasons we always had the issue that the 1st, 2nd or 3rd didn't want to cb each other: now the combat point system supports exciting cbs between the top clans! So you concentrate more on quality battles and masses of cbs.

After I slept over it I decided not to add a challenge feature, at least not yet, I even think about to make the final cbs easier by setting up fix cb times for US vs US and US vs EUR clans. You have to play at those times or you can play earlier so you don't have to setup  a cb for hours.

Jeb as you can read it in the other threads highscores will probably be shown on each ladder site.

More about Warzone in the other thread!

Bye,

Mauti

[Valdar]

The inactivity thing is messed up in its current state. With the purse system of gaining a lot of points by beating a clan of much higher rank, those clans that stay inactive for most of the begining season with have a destinct advantage. You only lose a percentage of your points so if you have 0 points to start with then you will lose absolutely nothing to inactivity. So if you decide to start playing later in the season you will get a lot of points because everyone will be of higher rank than you.

How about adding a constant amount of points for each week active?


I like the idea of a purse system. Although all the little numbers make it hard to understand. heh

There MUST be a rule where you can cb clans of close rank as many times as you please. The original problem that cb limits was supposed to combat was more experienced clans taking advantage of the weaker clans and gaining easy points. You do NOT want to limit those games between say 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th.  The reason being is I distinctly remember last season where we were dominating. In my memory there was only 1 clan that was active, really good, and had a real desire to cb us. That clan was bts, and the only problem was that we could not schedule very many matches between us. We always had to keep in mind that we could only cb them a max of 4 times and so we had to make each one count. There were a lot of weaker clans that did not pose much of a problem for us and I didn't really enjoy beating these guys because many had already decided that they had lost before the game had even started.  

My idea for a rule that will make next season a better place.

Lower the cb limit between clans to 3. When you play someone who is within 5 ranks of you, it does NOT count towards your cb limit.

If necessary add this:
If you are below rank 12 you have no cb limits with those below you. *This is to encourage those weaker clans to play between themselves until they get better*  Amatures can play Amatures all they want, but unless they start going up in rank, they should not expect to get much fights against the champ. They still can fight the champ, although it is limited to how many times they can. They have to prove they have good enough skill to get close.

[*DAMN Mauti]

You have to play at least 1cb/week once you started cbing: Being one week inactive = 20%penalty, 2 weeks 40%, 3weeks
80% and 4weeks you get removed from the ladder.

Valdar, your inactive penalties after you have done your first cb - but if you don't start cbing in the first 4 weeks you get removed from the ladder and all the previous weeks of being inactive count so if you decide you don't lose any points if you start later you can't allow to be inactive anymore or your clan will be removed!

"those clans that stay inactive for most of the begining season with have a destinct advantage."

No, that's the point of the combat point system: the guys that start earlier have much better chances to come into the finals because the points are always the same throughout the whole season!

To add a rule that you can cb the clans within 5 or 4ranks up and down as often as you want wouldn't be that difficult to add into the script! Any votes against this!?

Bye,

Mauti

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I'm all for it Mauti, let them (us) CB as much as they can.

[*DAMN Mauti]

Ok NO CB LIMITS for season 5 - let's try it if it works out or if some clans battle other weak clans over and over again.

[Mr. Lothario]

     If you have no CB limits, it will be abused.

     Having a rule where you have CB limits only against clans which are X ranks below you is sensible, but leads to some implementation problems. Clan "Super" CBs a low-ranked clan the maximum number of times allowed. Following that, the low-ranked clan moves up into the range where "Super" can now CB them without limit. After a while, the low-ranked clan drops back down to CB-limit territory. At that point, can "Super" CB them again? Yes? No? Only on alternate Tuesdays?

     I guess the easiest way to do it is to set a three-CB limit between clans, but if the clans are within a certain number of ranks of each other, the CB limit is totally ignored.

[*DAMN Mauti]

that's what I thought - you can abuse the system without cb limits but may due the system setup we should give it a try without limits or at least very liberal limits, cb limit = 7 (one for each week of the main season), and see if it works out!

Bye,

Mauti

[Valdar]

    If you have no CB limits, it will be abused.
     I guess the easiest way to do it is to set a three-CB limit between clans, but if the clans are within a certain number of ranks of each other, the CB limit is totally ignored.

That is what I said. At least, that is what I tried to say.  Anyway, I support Lothario's great idea!

Take bucc's example of c| and MP:
Say c| is in 2nd place(450 purse points) and |MP| is in 1st place(500 purse points).

If c| beats |mp|, c| gets 500 points and mp loses 50 points.
If |mp| beats c|, then mp gets 450 points with c| losing 0 points

In both outcomes 450 points are added to the ladder. Am I the only one who sees the problem here?

***Important***
Say c| and |mp| make the decision to exclusively play each other. Say that c| loses half the time and mp loses the other half of the time. If c| and |mp| play each other a lot then those 2 will quickly be off the charts.

You don't want a system where points are continually being added to the ladder. You need a big enough sinkhole, that will keep even the top clans within reasonable reach to the worst clans. This new system needs a 20% point loss or something like it.

[Mr. Lothario]

     If the point system is going to be skill-based, then the best clans are supposed to be out of reach to the worst clans. I'm in a hurry so I can't think this through all the way to figure out if I'm right or not, but it seems to me that if two clans were exclusively fighting each other, that they'd be left behind by other clans who were consistently gaining points. If nobody else has worked it through by the time I'm back from work, I'll run the thought experiment.

[Valdar]

The best clans are not supposed to be out of reach to the worst clans. The "worst clans" should have the opportunity to become #1. It is probably very unlikely, but if they drastically improve their gameplay they should have a shot at beccoming #1. The #1 clan on the ladder should have to fight to stay #1. They should not even be completely out of reach to a clan with only 2 points.

I honestly don't know why we have a massive overhaul of gametype and scoring. Last season worked out pretty well in my opinion. Sure you had clans that would dodge battles sometimes, but that is something we will probably always have. The battle dodging comes hand in hand with a competition ladder. You will not stop people from desiring to play with their best or until they get better, unless you completely get rid of a ladder that focuses on skill(which the purse point system has done in it's current state).

Like I said earlier, you NEED a big point sinkhole like what last season had. Why not keep what worked with last season and tweak what needs changing? This complete overhaul has a completely new list of problems and many of these problems will only reveal themselves after we have finished with season 5.

[Mr. Lothario]

     When I said "the worst clans," I wasn't referring to low-ranked clans. I was referring to clans which lack skill. A low-ranked clan which has skill can take on high-ranked clans and beat them, and thereby move up in the rankings. A clan without skill is shit out of luck, which is entirely appropriate.

     By the way, the intent of a system which lacks big point losses is to encourage CBing. Big point losses have a negative psychological effect, in that clans aren't eager to risk their hard-won points. Without the worry of losing massive numbers of points, clans will (hopefully) CB much more freely. Even without point losses, clans shouldn't be able to run away into the realm of superhigh unattainable scores. Assuming that, say, the top ten clans are all equally active, their points will increase in parallel throughout the season, so the top of that group shouldn't be dramatically out of reach, points-wise, of the bottom of that group.

[Ssickboy]

Balance is Key!!

bah i dont even know where to start.  Try to imagine these point scenarios mid-season.  What are the points and ranks gonna be like?

I rooted for clans like GG, |one| and DFA the whole way.  They we're skilled players all developing their team play throughout the season, and they all got close to making finals.  DFA's 40-40 record and high ranking in the end totally reflects their improvement.  That was a perfect scenario that worked.

We should not overly encourage or discourage cbing at any ranks.  We should however encourage all cb's period no matter what the rank...


PURSE POINTS

As for raising the purses by Jeb's recommendation, I'm not sure I agree with that.  Quick brief:  the purse points were raised to avoid a higher ranked clan getting more points by battling a lower-ranked clan multiple times rather than battling another high ranked clan just once.

Main reason i disagree:  

- The high ranked clan battling the lower ranks is taking a huge chance to lose big points each time it plays the lower ranks.  
- Where as by playing the higher ranks, it's taking very little chance and yet reaping huge rewards.  

The first purse amounts were correct, and maybe still could afford to go lower.  There is a perfect balance in the numbers here somewhere. The system should encourage playing between all ranks evenly.


PENALTIES

The minimal subtraction penalties amonst the highranked clans are not workin for me.  Most especially when the award is 30-50x greater than lowest clans in the same scenario.  If I was in 1st I see no reason to battle any clans lower than 5th.  This seems it would lead to a runaway ladder of elite skill.

I like flat percentage penalties (10%) better if any at all.  Keep it similar to last season in penalties, and reward winners depending upon the rank of their opponent.  YES, now that i think about it.  This makes sense.  I think we've been over compensating here.  Last season's ranks seemed fine to me.  The only difference here is that instead of penalizing losers you're rewarding big winners.  Last season wasn't like that, we'd get the same amount of points beating |db| as we would BTs.    

When playing a higher ranked team it's natural to expect the chances of losing to be greater.  The penalty is that your close running opponent has just gained your high purse points against you.  Take the end of last season for example with the shuffling of 1st place.  Taking the lead wasn't based on earning points so much as it was the leaders getting huge flat penalties for losing.  This would be opposite since this season one of two close ranking opposing teams gain the lead based on points they win against you vs points you lose in huge penalties.  

POINTS SUMMARY

Everything is relative here and needs a perfect balance.  If you dump the penalties then ignore what I said before and keep the high purse points.  that is my vote
   

I like no limits
I dont like challenges
I like the shorter season
I like the shorter finals (week-long)
 

[*DAMN Mauti]

Alright after rereading all threads I think I have to rewise many of my previous done posts and remember  the old skillpoint system its advantages and disadvantages and why we change to the combat point system and that the combat point system should just fix what didn't work for the skillpoint system!

About penalty points Valdar is right that he says they must be relative to your combat points: so I probably will use my older penalty point pattern where you lose 20percent against clans ranked 5 clans or more below you, and for the clans 1 - 4 in front of you or 1.-4 below you, you lose 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 percent because the clans already get your points and may take your rank. You still won't get penalty points for clans much higher ranked than you(5 or more). I think that will keep up a good balance between cbing all ranks together with my first posted purse point pattern.

About cb limits:

cb limit = 3 times but won't count if the clan is 4 clans up or below you ranked. Once you have reached the limit you can't cb anymore except he comes back into the +/-4rank range!

Ok I think that's something we can work with. This system encourages cbing with a fair balance between all ranks but without inviting/allowing to cb weaker clans over and over again but supporting the weaker clans to fight the top clans because they don't have to lose much. Once you are a top clan(top 5) you don't get this benefit anymore and you have to prove your real skills!

Bye,

Mauti

[l ! l Ross]

wow.

Been of play Americans Army for so long I haven't dropped by to check the how the BL was progressing.

I haven't read it all yet but it looks pretty cool. nice job Mauti.