God help us all

[BTs_Lee.Harvey]

["Sixhits"]

http://prodtn.cafepress.com/9/12677369_F_tn.jpg

My girlfriend says, her bush would make a better President.

Know what? My dick would make a better Vice President, too.

Any meaningful response, Harvey?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

His statements, video tapes, and anti-war propaganda shortly after his service in Vietnam

Yeah that freedom of speech stuff really blows. He should have moved to a country that actually allows some form of freedom of speech.

Except for the fact that he was lying through his teeth about most of it.  He testified about war atrocities from people who were never even IN Vietnam!  How can you call that freedom of speech???  The man went, while still in military service, to the North Vietnamese Communists in Paris repeatedly.....a violation of the UCMJ, and a crime punishible by DEATH.  Know why?  Cause it's called TREASON.  Chew on that for a while.  And if Kerry did participate in some of the war crimes he claims to have participated in, why the FUCK isn't anyone calling him in front of a war crimes tribunal???[/size]

[*DAMN Bondo]

GhostSniper...do you deny that Americans committed war crimes in Vietnam and that they were ordered by the higher ups? I assume you do deny it since you claim Kerry lied. Unfortunately, it is completely fact that those things happened.

And Kerry never did anything close to treason, it is just further McCarthyite behavior on the part of the Republicans to limit dissent.

[MacMan]

GhostSniper...do you deny that Americans committed war crimes in Vietnam and that they were ordered by the higher ups? [...]

Here comes a wild theory.
If today, the war crimes committed in vietnam were to be brought before a judge, where would we want it to be?
I hope you're thinking "UN International Crimes Court".
According to http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/documents/convncn_limit.htm , there is no statute of limitations on war crimes, making it possible for any publicity-hungry lawyer to create a lot of noise.
A good reason to not ratify the treaty?

Anyway, if that isn't paranoid enough for you, try on the idea of Bush himself being (secretly) guilty of war crimes  

Anyway,
imo You're screwed, stupid, and ******** if you re-elect Bush

["Sixhits"]

His statements, video tapes, and anti-war propaganda shortly after his service in Vietnam

Yeah that freedom of speech stuff really blows. He should have moved to a country that actually allows some form of freedom of speech.

Except for the fact that he was lying through his teeth about most of it.  He testified about war atrocities from people who were never even IN Vietnam!  How can you call that freedom of speech???  The man went, while still in military service, to the North Vietnamese Communists in Paris repeatedly.....a violation of the UCMJ, and a crime punishible by DEATH.  Know why?  Cause it's called TREASON.  Chew on that for a while.  And if Kerry did participate in some of the war crimes he claims to have participated in, why the FUCK isn't anyone calling him in front of a war crimes tribunal???[/size]

Sigh. Here's some facts

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE


Article after article after article showing the war crimes of just one unit. Includes audio interviews and first person accounts. Telling me this shit never happened? Telling me that Kerry lied about war crimes?

And here's a direct quote from Kerry's testimony:
"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 caliber machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages.''

Sounds like he was a soldier fighting in Veitnam, not incrimminating himself in war crimes.

Republicans have to smear Kerry's record because Kerry?s actual record, when compared to Bush?s or Cheney?s, torpedoes the myth that conservatives are somehow more patriotic and more likely to sacrifice for their country than liberals.

And this bull about Kerry being some sort of communist or having a red agenda... I think this is what you're logic is: Americans do not openly support proposals that amount to an American surrender to their enemies in time of war.

If Kerry was against the war then Kerry was supporting America "surrendering" to Communism.  I think history has shown the foolishness of that argument.  Admitting defeat in Veitnam led to a stronger America, not a weaker one. It made us question our actions and our leaders, and rightfully so. Kerry spearheaded the heroes of that time.  Remarkable, things have now come full circle.  War mongers from the past such as Cheney and Rumsfield -- Nixon administration political operatives -- are in power once again. It's gonna take the strength of conviction Kerry has shown in the past to boot these brutal thugs out of power once again.

Republicans would rather lie about the facts in order to avoid responsiblity than tell the truth and do the right thing. Well, in my America I want responsible, moral, strong leadership. Not Bush's reckless, immoral, and weak bullshit.

[cO.Kuza]

These topics really go nowhere because people are too fixed on what they believe is right. People spend way to much time trying to convince people to believe what they believe is right. Theres no changing GS to vote for democrat (tell me if im wrong ) and theres no changing Six to republican. This whole debate thing just starts flames when people like rebel come in and say stupid shit that gets people worked up.

The truth is both running mates have a sketchy past and both presidents are going to have their flaws. This country will never be "United" again if this type of Republican Vs. Democrat society remains. As the video that six     showed us, people are resorting to violence. and over what?

Stop the hate...

[jn.loudnotes]

Kuza I agree with you in general, but this election is a little too important in my opinion for everyone to care too much about getting along.  If one person questions their assumptions after reading some of Sixhits' posts, then it's been worthwhile.

And where on Earth did you get the idea that there was anything sketchy about John Edwards?  A big problem with this campaign is that the GOP has very effectively misinformed large parts of the population, and inexplicably the Kerry-Edwards camp hasn't been able to convince people of the truth.

The John Edwards I know (as a North Carolininian who's known him in the community since before his start in politics) is very popular among both parties as a model citizen.  The guy's law practice was by no means exploitative - his most famous high-dollar case was in representing a little girl whose intestines were sucked out by a swimming pool pump the manufacturer knew was defective but didn't do anything about.  You may dislike his politics, but I have a hard time seeing how you can argue that the multimillion jury award he helped secure was unjustified.  (She survived and requires expensive medical care)

John Edwards' teenage son died in a car crash about 10 years ago, and since making his fortune, Edwards has contributed thousands of dollars to the high school Wade Edwards attended.

I could go on, but my point is this - if anyone wants to criticize the policies of either party (which I haven't seen too much of in national debate) they're more than welcome to their opinion.  But being fixed on a belief of what's "right" about a person's character is a slippery slope.  I don't know enough first-hand to contradict the various slanders floating around about both Bush and Kerry, but I can tell you from personal experience that when people attempt to smear John Edwards they are lying.

Stop to think for a minute that "trial lawyer" is not necessarily a bad thing.  Now, can someone tell me anything sketchy about Edwards (as opposed to duck hunter, Energy manipulator, and "undisclosed location" Mr. Cheney?)
 

[Mr.Grey]

I disagree with what kerry is trying to do. I don't like the situation with his records atleast Bush let his out. My dad and some other vets  from the war told me that you would have to be so stupid to get injured three times with in a period of four months so something was going on. He might as well cut his leg in the brush and said "oh thats a purple heart".

[BFG]

Its amazing isn't it. Bush's campain team were freaked out that they were up against a war vet who rather than faking his records actually served active duty unlike bush... so they spend all their time trying to discredit Kerry...

Why aren't u guys just a bit more worried about what is going on now like what bush has done or hasn't done over the last 4 years. I know bush and co would prefer you were more worried about Kerrys record but right now that dosn't matter jack shit its just trying to keep your attention away fromt he shocking record of Bush's last 4 years in power.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

trying to keep your attention away fromt he shocking record of Bush's last 4 years in power.

Hmmm, Bush's shocking last 4 years in power....

1.  During that time, I have gone from being out of work/between jobs where I made about $25,000 a year to being the Fleet Sales Manager of a major auto dealership in my state and making between $200,000 and $300,000 a year.

2.  I lived in an apartment when Bush came into office and now I live in a $500,000 house on the beach in Biloxi, MS.

3.  Before Bush came into office, my daughter would have had to go to the crappy schools in Biloxi, but due to Bush's new voucher system, my daughter can go to one of the top rated schools in my state, which is out of my district.

4.  If I had made $300,000 a year under Clinton I would have had to pay nearly double the tax rate I pay now under Bush's tax plan.

5.  With all that extra tax money I save, I am able to give more money to many charities, including the Juvenile Diabetes Foundation, the American Diabetes Association, the Freedom Alliance, the Air Force Association, the Aerospace Education Foundation, the Air Force Aid Society, and the Baptist Bible Fellowship (which my parents are missionaries out of).

6.  I own an AK47, an M4, and an H&K MP5, and thanks to the current administration (and Congress), I can now take them out and play with them and/or buy more of them or sell the ones I have.

7.  Even though the disaster of Sept 11 happened during Bush's watch, a thing called the FIRST bombing of the World Trade Center happened under Clinton's watch....in which he did nothing about it.  Ruby Ridge, the Columbine Shooting, the Branch Dividians, and the USS Cole bombing all happened during Clinton's Presidency....and he did nothing about it.  My home city, Oklahoma City, was bombed by a domestic terrorist in 1995.....and Clinton did nothing about it.  I'm just glad we finally have a President that has the BALLS to do something about this nation's DEFENSE!

So, I guess I kinda like Bush and his "shocking" last 4 years.

So sue me.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.[/size]

P.S.  8.  I had one of the original iMac G3's when Bush came into power, and now I own a Desktop G5 (and will have the cash to trade up to the 3.0GHz G5 the very day Apple releases it).[/size]

[*DAMN Bondo]

P.S.  8.  I had one of the original iMac G3's when Bush came into power, and now I own a Desktop G5 (and will have the cash to trade up to the 3.0GHz G5 the very day Apple releases it).[/size]

LMAO...are you actually trying to have this be a valid argument? Speaking of which, Bush has passed no school voucher programs.

As for me...my dad lost a 200,000/year job in 2002 and has been unable to find anything since. While I saved 50% on my taxes (a total of less than $100 over Bush's Administration) thanks to his tax cuts, my tuition costs skyrocketed due to related state funding reactions to Bush's cuts...costing me a few thousand. I can offer the anecdotal evidence as well. However, the non anecdotal is things like a net loss of jobs (even worse compared to the jobs needed to deal with population growth,) the rise in poverty, the rise in health care costs and other living costs. Then there is the turn from huge surplus to huge deficit.

[Typhy]

1.) Perhaps you could explain the Bush administration's role in your career change?

2.) I lived in a 1.2 million dollar house when Bush came into office, I'll live in the same house when Kerry is elected this november. Again, perhaps you could explain what your house has to do with tue Bush Administration.

3.) Before Bush came to office, our high school had 1,300 students, 100 more than it was designed for. Our school now has 1,900 students, and, if Alaska complies with NCLB, will be gaining several hundred more soon, from rural communities who can't comply with NCLB. On top of that, classes have gone from being 15-20 kids to being 30-60, due to the loss of many excellent teachers who weren't "qualified" to do the jobs they'd been doing for 10 years.

4.) And the loss of millions of jobs are a minor consequence, and very acceptable so that you can pay less in taxes, right?

5.) And you're able to give money away to people on GR. However, I respect the fact that you choose to give money to charities.

6.) Bush supports the Assault Weapons Ban. However, now there is a greater potential that cops will find themselves looking down the barrel of an AR15 ( An idea that I quite like, as someone who maintains the attitude that the only good cop is a dead cop, but that's beside the point ).

7.) Right, America was attacked under the Clinton administration, and he just stood there, where as Bush has gone right out, made thousands more enemies, pissed off the UN and our allies, and gotten over 1,000 Americans killed.

PS. Under the Clinton Administration, I had a Dual 500 G4, which was top of the line at that time. Under the Bush administration, I've got a 1GHZ Powerbook G4, which is less than half as fast as the top of the line mac.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

I wasn't speaking for everyone, only myself.  Those are the reasons I am supporting Bush....because I PERSONALLY am better off than I was 4 years ago.  If you aren't, then you can vote for whoever the hell you want.

Ah, the beauty of FREEDOM.

w00t![/size]

["Sixhits"]

I disagree with what kerry is trying to do. I don't like the situation with his records atleast Bush let his out. My dad and some other vets  from the war told me that you would have to be so stupid to get injured three times with in a period of four months so something was going on. He might as well cut his leg in the brush and said "oh thats a purple heart".

What is Kerry trying to do? What are you implying? What are you presuming? Do you really think Kerry is going to do bad things to this country after what we've seen Bush do? It's like Bush is standing up in front of the country, failure after failure surrounding him, and he has the gall to say, "Who ya gonna believe? Me, or your lyn' eyes?"

At least Bush... keeps finding new records to release. Huh? We've seen slander and lies about Kerry who's records is a matter of public record. As for Bush, maybe if he stopped lying about having released his records, and simply did release them all, you could question Kerry. At least we know where Kerry stands; we can see the medals on his chest. For Bush, there are real questions about his conduct during the time he serviced. If he would only act like a man and stop hiding things from America about his past then there would be no more doubt about why he ditched service, disobeyed orders, and failed to show up for duty. He could put all the rumors to rest if he just came clean and explained what he was doing and why he did it.

Your dad doesn't know what he's talking about. In war you never know when you're gonna get it, and brave men like Kerry, who risked themselves over and over again for their men, are more likely to get wounded because they take the risks real leaders are supposed to take. You slander every solider who was ever wounded or killed for this country when you say he coulda got a purple heart for cutting himself with a brush. Shame on you. Finally, the US Navy yesterday announced that there were no errors in the way Kerry recieved his awards and that all were earned. Case closed, stop lying, Republicans.

Facts. Truth. Simple if you bother looking for them.

trying to keep your attention away fromt he shocking record of Bush's last 4 years in power.

....

You do not represent everyone. You are in fact, special. Rejoyce, rich man.

Schools? Again, yer rich, and I think you can afford better schools than the normal American. If you had been making as much under Clinton you could have afforded to send your girl to the best schools then, too. Ask a poor or middle class person how great the voucher system is. What national voucher system? Ask them how well funded No Child Left Behind was and what is done to their schools? Bush has had four years and he offered one policy to better the education of America's children. It was a weak, illconsidered policy, underfunded.

A $500,000 home? How many Americans make the money to afford a home like that? How many fewer Americans make no money now, having lost their job, because of Bush's failed economic policies?

You SHOULD be paying an arm and a leg in taxes. You know why? Because taxes are an investment in America and only a selfish, greedy person who didn't care about his fellow American's would look down on investing in their country. That's the Republicans point of view: they are too greedy and selfish to invest in America for the benefit of all Americans. Aren't we in this all together?

You telling me you spend your massive rich person's tax cut on charity? Please, if you need a tax cut in order to give then you aren't really interested in charity, you're interested in making yourself feel better.

You should not be able to own assualt weapons. One of the great shames of Bush's legacy is that he's let the most successful anti-violence law lapse. He claims he's for renewing it. Why hasn't he forced his Republican controled Congress to put the bill in front of him? Because he's a liar and a weak leader. He says he wants to renew it? Fucking renew it then. Don't stand around like a pussy, preening like a littlel bitch.

You persist in blaming Clinton for terrorism. This is slander.  Clinton did more than any President to combat terrorism. As Clinton left office Bush was informed that terrorism and Osama Bin Laden would be the number one threats to the United States. Bush went on vacation. Clinton, everyone forgets, foiled the 2000 melimium attacks against the soil of the United States. He foiled an Al Quida plot to blow up a dozen 747s over the Pacific. He fought a successful, covert war and kept America strong and respected while doing so. This while the Republicans tried to weaken the country while at war with impeachment for adulty? Where were the Republican priorities? Why the fuck did they care so much extra martial sex, but didn't care about terrorism? Why don't they care about Bush lying to us about conquering Iraq? About losing the war? About Bush being the most expensive President ever, as he cuts taxes and spends and spends and spends? The reason they don't say anything now is that they DON'T CARE ABOUT AMERICA, THEY CARE ABOUT POWER.

Frankly, Clinton waged a better war on terrorism that Bush has -- cause at least Clinton CAUGHT terrorists and CONVICTED THEM.

Bush hasn't got Bin Laden. He hasn't got the anthrax killer. He refuses to acknowledge we are losing the war on terrorism, since terrorist attacks have increased world wide under his watch, and Iraq, once the only secular nation in the middle east is now set to decend into civil war and become the next Iran. There goes 200 billion bucks, thousands of American lives, for nothing. Iran has nukes. Korea has nukes. And our Amry is bleed white on the sands and cities of Iraq.

Freedom is loosing under Bush's leadership and Bush doesn't even acknowledge it. What victories? Show me victories! Show me freedom on the march! Show me liberation, not oppucation! Show me why my county is morally great, not a brutal selfish bully! Show me why to believe, Bush!

And treat my soldiers as heroes, especially the wounded ones, instead of hiding them away while you stop-loss them to death. Stop forgetting our heroes, Mr. President. Throw them parades. Make them feel like the heroes they are. And STOP using them for political gain.

We deserves a President who leads, instead of pussies out. We deserve strong and moral leader in the form of John Kerry, instead of Republican weakness and lies.

And remember.  You're rich, Ghost.  You're special. You're part of the 5% who can get what they want and have what they need. I commend your success. But the rest of us are normal human beings with normal jobs and normal lies. We don't get tax cuts that help us. We can barely afford medical insurance. We care about facts, not promises. We want our soldiers to be treated like heroes, not piriahs used for political gain. We want our nation respected again, not feared. And we want our leaders to stop terrorizing us and start killing the terrorists. It's simple, really. Normal Americans don't live in an ivory tower surrounded by perfection. Most of use live in the real world.

[*DAMN Bondo]

GhostSniper, that doesn't change that you lied about Bush getting your kid a voucher. As I said, Bush has had no hand in any type of school voucher program as President. He didn't even have a voucher program when he was Governor of Texas. So giving credit to Bush for that is false praise.

P.S. Before you criticize Clinton on how he dealt with terrorism, shouldn't you acknowledge that Bush responded by sitting dazed listening to My Pet Goat? If you want to compare Clinton and Bush on foreign policy, compare by results, not methods. The rate of terrorism is higher under Bush than Clinton. The US was fairly well regarded internationally under Clinton, it is nearly universally reviled under Bush. You can support Bush for whatever reasons (real or fake) you want, but most of your reasons seem to be based on faulty premises.

[BFG]

1.? During that time, I have gone from being out of work/between jobs where I made about $25,000 a year to being the Fleet Sales Manager of a major auto dealership in my state and making between $200,000 and $300,000 a year.

Congrats.. and what exactly did bush do to make that happen i wonder? probably something around the mark of f* all.

2.? I lived in an apartment when Bush came into office and now I live in a $500,000 house on the beach in Biloxi, MS.

... And again, what did that have to do with bush? nothing... u got a new job, so you have more money, so you can afford a bigger house.

3.? Before Bush came into office, my daughter would have had to go to the crappy schools in Biloxi, but due to Bush's new voucher system, my daughter can go to one of the top rated schools in my state, which is out of my district.

Yep your a rich american now! And becasue your rich you deserve better for your self and your family. You have money so your children should get a better start in life than others! You should be able to pick and choose which school you get becasue your rich! wow what a great idea, you are obviously so much better than people who don't have much money and so you should be treated much better.

4.? If I had made $300,000 a year under Clinton I would have had to pay nearly double the tax rate I pay now under Bush's tax plan.

Heres where we disagree. The more money you earn the more tax you should pay - tax should be linked to earning. Clinton wanted to keep it balenced - like six said, tax's are the investment in your country. Sorry i thought u loved your country and all that bullshit? you love it but you dont want to help it?

5.? With all that extra tax money I save, I am able to give more money to many charities, including the Juvenile Diabetes Foundation, the American Diabetes Association, the Freedom Alliance, the Air Force Association, the Aerospace Education Foundation, the Air Force Aid Society, and the Baptist Bible Fellowship (which my parents are missionaries out of).

And the money in tax's wouldn't be put to good use? No thats right, it would be used for stupid things like inproving education for those kids who's parents arn't as rich as you, or for helping give medical treatment for those who cannot afford it.
Ok our Health system is not great, but jesus we don't decide to treat people over here depending on whether they have money or not. as a Citizen of the UK i know that if somthing happens to me i will get help - by paying my tax's and my parents paying theirs - we are ensuring that everyone in this country recieves that.

Good to hear you give to diabetes charities - however if the goverment had more money and a proper president im sure they wouldn't have to depend on charity. and im sorry but half of those listed in my eyes do not even begin to qualify as charitys.

6.? I own an AK47, an M4, and an H&K MP5, and thanks to the current administration (and Congress), I can now take them out and play with them and/or buy more of them or sell the ones I have.

 You do not need a gun. Guns are not for playing with. As a ex soldier i would have thought u knew that. they serve one purpose and that is to kill. do have no right to do that. There is a difference from owning a pistol and using it at a shooting range, and owning a AK47.

7.? Even though the disaster of Sept 11 happened during Bush's watch, a thing called the FIRST bombing of the World Trade Center happened under Clinton's watch....in which he did nothing about it.? Ruby Ridge, the Columbine Shooting, the Branch Dividians, and the USS Cole bombing all happened during Clinton's Presidency....and he did nothing about it.? My home city, Oklahoma City, was bombed by a domestic terrorist in 1995.....and Clinton did nothing about it.? I'm just glad we finally have a President that has the BALLS to do something about this nation's DEFENSE!

Domestic terrorists.... yeah there are some fucking crazy nutters in your country wondering around with a bible in one hand and a AK47 in the other. But instead of looking inwards at the problems your country has bush needs a nice war to keep your minds busy... the "war on terrorism" is perfect - it keeps you all pre-occupied and not thinking about the real key issues that need addressing in your country.


Rich, Ignorant, fanatically religious  and Selfish... what a dangerous mix.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

GhostSniper, that doesn't change that you lied about Bush getting your kid a voucher. As I said, Bush has had no hand in any type of school voucher program as President. He didn't even have a voucher program when he was Governor of Texas. So giving credit to Bush for that is false praise.

How did I lie?  My daughter hasn't even started 1st Grade yet....I'm talking about when she starts in the public school system.  And yes, I do expect vouchers to be passed by then.

Don't ever call me a lier.  I have more integrity in my pinkie than you will ever fathom.[/size]

[*DAMN Bondo]

3.  Before Bush came into office, my daughter would have had to go to the crappy schools in Biloxi, but due to Bush's new voucher system, my daughter can go to one of the top rated schools in my state, which is out of my district.
[/color][/size]

Work on your wording, this implies the voucher system is passed already. As for your integrity...well, don't expect that to mean anything if you make poor arguments.

[jn.loudnotes]

Those are the reasons I am supporting Bush....because I PERSONALLY am better off than I was 4 years ago.? If you aren't, then you can vote for whoever the hell you want.

Ah, the beauty of FREEDOM.

GS, of course you're free to vote for whomever you want.  That's the whole point of an election.  But your overall reason for supporting Bush - because you are better off - fails to account for the millions of other people who are worse off.  Are you really so selfish that you support Bush at the country's expense?

More to the point, an ethics question for you -

Would you knowingly vote for the worse candidate for the nation if it meant you would have material gain?  How much does it take for your vote to be bought?