Pope Nazi

[BTs-FahQ2]

hahahaha, this convo is beyond hilarious.  He was elected pope, not grandmaster of the universe ku klux klan leader and superior of the free world.  I will not sit here and believe your chants of the sky is falling and evil has been thwart upon us.

You are vilifying a guy who did something when he was 14.  Who fucking knows what he was thinking back then and who really knows if he knew they were killing jews when he joined.  But obiously sixhits and carmen san diego do.  Your opinion and bias now is ridiculous.  This is like saying someone who joined the boyscouts when they were 14, who happen to not like gays, must of joined to hate gays.  In addition, since he was a member some 60 odd years ago, he must still hate gays.  Shit, when I was 14 I thought drugs were fun, but now that I am older, realize it really wasn't.  I must still like drugs since I cannot change?

Sure "Nazi" is still a powerful and hateful term.  But you cannot persecute someone who was young and naive, and obviously has been apart of something thats overall goal is good for the largest part of his life.

Besides this, what the hell are you crying about the election of a pope correlating with the decline of democracy and the world in general.  This was no result of a popular election of a majority of the world.  Some 100 odd guys belonging to a large, but not a majority part of the world elected him.  He is not even the view of most of america.  Not only that, america is run by protestants.  If I remember correctly, you wanted kerry to be our president?  So you supported the follower of a religion who supports nazism?  WTF were you thinking.  You inadvertant nazi supporter you.  You should of researched your decision more clearly before america almost had direct ties to the nazi party.  Where would we be then?

hahhaha, you see how reading into shit were you scream the sky is falling makes no goddamn sense.  If you want to preach crazy, then really go preach it to those who follow the facts the way you state them.  Only the truly rational just look at how you put them and laugh laugh laugh.

[Cossack]

Seeing as how the Vatican was against Hitler and the Pope criticized what the facists were doing (while being surrounded by Mussolini) I dont see how the catholic CHURCH (different than people of catholic faith acting with the government) helped them go against the jews in the occupied countries. Many catholic convents, monastaries, etc even took pains to hide Jews. The Catholic church did as much as it could considering they did not have a single rifle to go up against the German regime who understood nothing but force of arms.

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/12/07/Worldandnation/Journal_defends_pope_.shtml

You also say that anyone who joined the Hitler Youth because they were forced to is a nazi.Ratzinger and my grandmother were both avid catholics who were forced to go into the Hitler Youth. You my friend are calling my dear Catholic Pomeranian grandmother a nazi, and now I start to take this beyond a political conversation and start to take it personally. Maybe I shouldnt but I do.

 Joining the Hitler Youth because you were forced to does not even comapre to the crimes of the concentration camp runners.

Yes there were resistance groups in Germany, you know what my Hitler Youth grandmother did? She went to a supposed [sarcasm]nazi sympathetic [/sarcasm] catholic church ran by [sarcasm]"Hitler's Pope" [/sarcasm].

True the catholic church probablly could have done more, I will give you that. It is hard though when you are surrounded by a facist Italy saturated with German soldiers. They did resist, and they did help the Jews, but in more subtle ways.

["Sixhits"]

First of all, Hitler Youth.

Second of all, he said gay people bring violence on themselves.

Third of all, he's a pedophile enabler.


And you guys are nit-picky about what I say about this guy?

Cos, I doubt your mother was a hardcore nazi. But she joined and she must bear that albatross. It sucks. But there were thousands of Germans and millions of other people who stood up, fought, and often died to bring down the nazis. <cringes in fear of cos's response> if it's any consolation, I bet she really, truly regrets it.


And Faq, laugh. I think you're pretty silly yourself. I'm pointing out what's going on and how it has already affected us Americans and how ignorance and lack of care for world events is the the idiom of so many of my fellows. To sum, again, if someone doesn't care, someone else is gonna care for them, and thus decide things for them. If that's the way you like your world then keep on laughing. But don't tear into me with your appologist bullshit. He was 14. Cool. I get it. He still fucked up and choose to side with evil. Was he compelled by outside forces? Sure was. Has he attempted to make amends? Absolutely. But he is still all three of the things I put at the top of this post - none of them are morally good.

If you enjoy being a snarky back biter who's best tool to weakly mock me, then blast off big boy. You sure sound good. Took me a while to realize you have nothing to say.

As for Kerry for President - dude, when the fuck did I link being a Catholic to being evil? Just the same as I don't think all,oh, American's are evil for electing Bush or, even, all German's evil for having (gasp) elected Hitler back in the day. And I also said that the reaction of Catholics has been mixed. So stop putting words in my mouth - i will spit them back in your fucking face. Hell, I think there are a hell of a lot more good people in the world than bad. Pope Nazi (snark) just happens to be one of those bad guys in my book. Disagree? You go with nazi childhood, gay bashing, and a pedophile enabler. Bully for you.

Hang that 'round your fucking neck.

Finally, Cos is right. I've spent the last two days reading up on the Church and the Nazis and I can find a lot of opinion on what Pious did and didn't do, but, the key thing for me was that a lot of Jewish people are big supporters of him. So that seals that. I was wrong about the Church faciliating the Nazis, at least according the people must hurt by them.

[BTs-FahQ2]

erm, you will never get it.  You try to analyze things in the views that you put them without rationalyzing further.

Gay people bring violence on themselves.  This is a statement by someone who belongs to an institution that thinks gay is wrong, not right, not accepted by their god, and basically a huge sin.  But you want him to make a statement that is pro gay?  What the hell do you expect him to say.  It's obvious he/ the church doesn't like gays, can you blame him for an anti gay statement.  People expect it, the same way they just claim they are sodomizers.

He's a pedophile enabler.  Under the circumstances of how the church dealt with the situation, I agree it was fucked.  No arguement from me here.  But he was still annointed by a panel of his peers who think he must of done it how they see fit.

Nazi pope.  this is just your own rediculous inability to accept that some people were in the nazi party under threat of life, to ease hardship and basically out of ignorance.  Funny how you can sit here and just label him the blanket of evil when most jews accept him as innocent.  Hell, he was the force behind the apology to the jews.  Even funnier how you would make cossacks grandmother hang her head in shame for doing what was basically self preservation.  I would like to see how you respond under the gun, if you still denounce those who wish to kill you, then you have more will then they did.  But until then, dunno what I can say.

The whole kerry thing was just satire of the linking of inate conspiracies and how you can make the most insane conclusions from them.  People do it all the time.

So in summation, when you sit there and type what I am pointing out is what's going on and how it has affected us, you still haven't realized this is how you interpreted it.  How you interpret things doesn't make them fact, it is just your opinion trying to be supported by facts.  You did actually sit there and state

A postscript to all this is that what we think, feel, say, and do in response to the election of a nazi as pope reflects on our character. As a nation, Americans have been mixed, thank goodness. But the fact that so many here and in the greater nation just don't care makes me fear for our democracy

You see, you are making the assumption that your argument is already correct and this is why you fear for america.  Did you ever think americans just don't see it your way and that is why it is mixed and not out of ignorance? Who's character do you refer to? those who don't believe what you do.  This is what is dangerous thoughts, I would rather has a colony of idiots then those who think evil is upon them because we don't see facts the way they interpret them.

[-SW- Baz]

Six, i'd suggest dropping your little rant. FahQ2 is right and you're wrong.

[Mr.Mellow]

Six, i'd suggest dropping your little rant. FahQ2 is right and you're wrong.

Well then, Six, I guess you got told. lol. But seriously guys, this is all opinion, for the most part. There is no right or wrong side, only sides that think they're right or wrong, as it is with most religious topics. Both sides have good points but everyone's a bit too stubborn to open their mind just a little. Now can't we all just get along and  ?

[bronto]

damn baz certainly changed my mind with that post, what a great contribution to this thread he has been.

[BFG]

If thats the same Baz that myself and Shade had the pleasure of playing with on Game-ranger, well im surprised he knows what a pope is and managed to write that whole sentence all by himself.

  

[Cossack]

I aint pissed Six, and my grandmother certainly does regret what she had to do. What I am trying to get you to admit is that just because you were forced to join the Hitler Youth in the early part of your life, does not mean you subscribe to the beleifs and principles of National Socialism.

["Sixhits"]

Go away for a weekend and return to find a nice juicy post. Thank Faq.

erm, you will never get it.  You try to analyze things in the views that you put them without rationalyzing further.

(at this point Ghost Sniper logs off) (anyone left? oh well...)

Ok. Not to be picky, but I'm not sure what you're on about. I think what you're saying is that I am analyzing "views" ie some one else's opinion through the my own frame of reference. Essentially. I'm trying to fit someone else into my box and finding they don't fit, complain. Sure, I am fitting being a member of the Hitler Youth, supporting gay bashing, and being pedophile enabler into my box of moral values and find - shock - dude's lacking. I also find it stunning that this bothers you and that you are willing to stand up and defend someone's bad past just because they themselves have a difference of opinion on the subject than me, the criticizer. And yeah, I'm aware this smacks of the very self righteousness that I'm all in a tizzy about. That's sorta the way it goes when you disagree very strongly about core prinniclpals. Maybe I seem like an easier mark to you than the pope, lacking the whole ordained by god, voted in by his peers thing.

This is a statement by someone who belongs to an institution that thinks gay is wrong, not right, not accepted by their god, and basically a huge sin.  But you want him to make a statement that is pro gay?  What the hell do you expect him to say.  It's obvious he/ the church doesn't like gays, can you blame him for an anti gay statement.  People expect it, the same way they just claim they are sodomizers.

Just because you expect an alcoholic to drink doesn't mean you're any less disappointed when he does. I wonder why you have trouble with me getting pissed that one of the world's centers of morals endorses a man as it's leader who despises a portion of our population just because of who they are, or, forgive me, better put, how they were Made.  I ask you, do you argee with this? Do you think distain and hatred is a moral value? Is it a value which any spiritual leader taught, including Jesus?

He's a pedophile enabler...  But he was still annointed by a panel of his peers who think he must of done it how they see fit.

I am so frustrated by and sick of appologists who look at evil when done under the trappings of elected right or moral right and shrug, as if it's impossible to call a spade a spade when someone votes in a hoe. You think it's evil. Call it out, curse those that endorse it or cover it up. Fucking fight! Who cares if his peers endorse it? They are binding themselves to the same sick perversion. If you honestly believe their endorsement of a guy who enables pedophiles means I shouldn't, and you shouldn't, be any longer concerned about it, then I... I mean... I'm at a loss for words. Which brings me back to the fuckign nazis god damn it: here's a thought game and you tell me the answer.

If the Germans had held a simple majority vote, of all the Volk (Jews excluded), in '42, asking the people to decide if it was cool or not to burn Jewish folks in ovens till they died and the people endorsed it by a majority vote --- would that be a moral act, a right act, a correct act, just because it was voted on?

What I'm getting at is that I agree with you: one's Opinion doesn't provide one with the essence of Correctness. I'm not right because I believe I am. You can disagree; good, that's cool. I'd rather disagreement than a lack of interest. But don't tell me I shouldn't speak because the person or people I'm speaking out against disagree with me.

And for those out there who's favorite counter argument to all this is, "It's somebody else's bullshit; it won't spill on me." Well, who's to say it won't get shoveled on your front lawn? Certainly not you, you fucking mute.

Nazi pope.  this is just your own rediculous inability to accept that some people were in the nazi party under threat of life, to ease hardship and basically out of ignorance.  Funny how you can sit here and just label him the blanket of evil when most jews accept him as innocent.  Hell, he was the force behind the apology to the jews.

Two things: He signed up. Attacking me for what I haven't done or what I might do doesn't change that fact no matter how much you want it to. But, just to play your game to the end, let's say I was faced with the exact same situation and did the exact same thing and someone was attacking me for being an ex-nazi. Guess what? They're right. I would be. Now, could he me a far better man than that label? Sure. In my opinion (do we have to start putting disclaimers up before we speak?) grounded in his actions toward pedaphilles and homosexuals, I don't think he's really all that much better than your average nazi. He's no SS man, sure. He's on par with the paper pusher moving trains towards Auschwitz in my book.

Second thing: The Church and Jews. The Jewish response towards the Pope's past makes me convinced he's no anti-semite. He's just the anti-gay and a pedaphille enabler.

How you interpret things doesn't make them fact, it is just your opinion trying to be supported by facts.  You did actually sit there and state

A postscript to all this is that what we think, feel, say, and do in response to the election of a nazi as pope reflects on our character. As a nation, Americans have been mixed, thank goodness. But the fact that so many here and in the greater nation just don't care makes me fear for our democracy

Well, it does make me fear for our Democracy. I think when people don't care enough about something to bother debating it they stand to lose it. It's my opinion and I stated it as such. Again, do I need to start putting up disclaimers? And... what's your point? That I'm wrong, or might be? I willing to take the chance that I'm not vomiting truth when I speak my mind. 

You see, you are making the assumption that your argument is already correct and this is why you fear for america.  Did you ever think americans just don't see it your way and that is why it is mixed and not out of ignorance?

Um, dude, if anyone, anywhere, ever makes an argument they assume or hell, know to be wrong, they're a hypocrite. Me, I assume my opinion is worth stating and I want to kick into the mix as forcefully and loudly as possible because I hope it's right. I might be wrong. But I'm betting I'm not. If people see things another way, I hope we can talk about it. Or yell about it, all red faced and shit. But, look, don't knock me 'cause I'm voicing my opinion and am willing to pick apart other people's opinions. I expect the same to be done on me.


AS FOR BAZ
Your pwnage of me still stings.

COS
I admit it: being forced to join something doesn't mean you believe in the thing. I'll stop there. (and you're starting to sound an aweful lot like Walter from The Big Lebowski)

[~Po~ TiroFino]

COS
I admit it: being forced to join something doesn't mean you believe in the thing. I'll stop there.

So you don't believe he's a NAZI anymore? 

["Sixhits"]

COS
I admit it: being forced to join something doesn't mean you believe in the thing. I'll stop there.

So you don't believe he's a NAZI any more? 

Sigh.

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

Lock it. The bird is done.

Admirable phrasing from both camps.

In that seemingly diametric placement of those two opinions and examinations, we find the profound, sublime beauty of the paradox. The paradox will be the answer currently eluding the masters of theoretical physics. The jar is both half empty and half full in fact.
And to borrow a phrase 'as it is above, so shall it be below'.  Eventually at some point in our futures, the paradox will be used to explain EVERYTHING...ie Unified field theory. Upon completion or discovery, this theory will also correctly apply to all intellectual discussion when viewed from the outside...ie..the suicide bomber is a hero to someone...for reasons that you and i cannot fathom, because we are the 'other'.
We think hes a monster, but dammit, hes commited to his faith...and we'd all agree that faith (in something-even nihilism) is a prerequisite for waking up every day....or becoming an activist for any cause you can think of...including agreeing or disagreeing with that particular choice for a pope. (theres some belief system at work informing the talking points we would use to discuss the merits of our case for or against-whos to say who is right?)

And that is why, the human politic is frail. Its flawed.
Interests and opinions, debate built upon polarity and self-interest
creates a dog chasing its tail.

Is the tail faster than the dog, or the dog slower than the tail?
Im not big enough to figure that one out yet.
The answer made Buddha laugh.


 

[:MoD:Shade]

If thats the same Baz that myself and Shade had the pleasure of playing with on Game-ranger, well im surprised he knows what a pope is and managed to write that whole sentence all by himself.

  

Refresh my memory...

Name sounds familiar but I don't remember what he was doing.

[*NADS Lo$eMoney]

And that is why, the human politic is frail. Its flawed.
Interests and opinions, debate built upon polarity and self-interest
creates a dog chasing its tail.

Is the tail faster than the dog, or the dog slower than the tail?
Im not big enough to figure that one out yet.
The answer made Buddha laugh.

Is the dog a nazi too?

[(SiX)Sheixhundt]

And that is why, the human politic is frail. Its flawed.
Interests and opinions, debate built upon polarity and self-interest
creates a dog chasing its tail.

Is the tail faster than the dog, or the dog slower than the tail?
Im not big enough to figure that one out yet.
The answer made Buddha laugh.

Is the dog a nazi too?

no, its merely obsessive compulsive.

 

dont take me too terribly seriously,
i dont talk like that in real life.
unless im addressing the retardation of the sales staff.

["Sixhits"]

Know what I love? When the other side starts comparing gay marriage to death camps. All i was doing was calling an ex-nazi a nazi.

Here's what a Spanish Catholic Cardinal had to say on the new law in Spain allowing for same-sex marriage.

<<<
"If you give obedience to the law priority over obedience to your conscience, that leads to Auschwitz," Cardinal Ricard Maria Carles, former archbishop of Barcelona, told a Spanish television station.

He added:

"The people who made Auschwitz were not criminals, but people who had been forced to, or thought they had a duty to, obey the laws of the Nazi government rather than their own conscience."

The Triangulo foundation, a Spanish gay rights group, said that comparison with the Holocaust was "repugnant" and called on the church to "stop sowing hatred against victims of discrimination and against victims of the Holocaust, among whom there were many homosexuals."
>>>

The people who made Auschwitz were not criminals?

Maybe this guy's just trying to suck up to Pope Nazi. Or maybe the people who run the church are filthy, twisted human beings. But that's just my opintion.

http://www3.advocate.com/news_detail.asp?id=16122