Pope Nazi

[BFG]

i could care less, the pope and religion in general has no effect on my life whatsoever

Um excuse me but don't you live in America?  How on earch can you say religion in general has no effect on your life!!!

[:MoD:Shade]

Catholicism is one religion, there are many.

The pope is just a figurehead, he doesn't change how America operates and he probably won't do anything but continue whatever the previous Popes have been doing and what the Catholics have believed in for thousands of years.

[Cobra]

i could care less, the pope and religion in general has no effect on my life whatsoever

Um excuse me but don't you live in America?  How on earch can you say religion in general has no effect on your life!!!

Are you talking about how religion directly affects the decisions I make, or its induced effects on my life caused by religion's connection with the country's people of power?

(Err, for clarity, you weren't quoting me, I was just wondering what you meant)

[80_Proof]

dude he was forced into it man, either join them and run later or be shot on the spot, or assraped by his fawtha

[bronto]

i'll try and put it like this; i see and hear religion all the time, but it makes no difference in my life...so until there is a pope tax, i am unaffected. sure, religious morals have brought about many laws in this country (most of which are naive), but i disregard them anyway. they can make all the laws and rules they like, but if i think it's only to serve a specific group of people, i will keep doing what i want. i pay bills, drive on the right side of the road, and i don't hurt anyone.

["Sixhits"]

i'll try and put it like this; i see and hear religion all the time, but it makes no difference in my life...so until there is a pope tax, i am unaffected. sure, religious morals have brought about many laws in this country (most of which are naive), but i disregard them anyway. they can make all the laws and rules they like, but if i think it's only to serve a specific group of people, i will keep doing what i want. i pay bills, drive on the right side of the road, and i don't hurt anyone.

Christ on his cross.

It makes no difference in your life? You an American? Religion is currently the dominant force in American poltics and society. You may think, sitting where you are right now, that religion is some vague concept that makes wing nuts rap moralistic and motivates wackos to fly airplanes into buildings, but really, religion and the abuse of it's influence is an shotgun aimed at your head.

You, bronto. Me. Anyone who is willing to disagree with them, or even ignore them.

You see, strict interpretation - fundamentalism or evanglegicalism - of a religious text commands a lot of people these days. They don't care if you pay or taxes and mind your own business. They want to control you, order you to conform to their world view, and don't care a lick for your Constitutional rights. They don't care about capitalism. They don't care about the country. They care about the Kingdom of Heaven.

Fuck you, they think, you hate religion. You hate them. You're a baby killer because you're not anit-abortion. You're anti-Christ because you don't interpret the Bible the way they do. You're an enemy to be overrun because you won't get out of their way.

You disregard laws? You, bucko, are number two on their list right below gay people. You smoke weed? Even think about fucking a girl before marriage? You used a condom? You voted Democrat once? Bullet in the brain for you.

So when a nazi becomes Pope I look at it as the continuance of an age old fundamentalist tradition. The hatred of the Other. The denial of human rights to those who are different and, thus, somehow dangerous.

I see a nazi bearing a cross and I think, "what's new here?"

And I know the one true lesson of history: it repeats itself.

A nazi of the Cloth. A facist for a President. And my fellow citizen's willfull ignorance - a lack of concern for their own rights. Remember, the price of freedom is eternal vigiliance. You just caved on the vigiliance part.

Do you still deserve your freedom? They don't think so.

[Croosch]

I think the african cardinal looked like the best choice.

[BFG]

I just wrote a great long post, then read through sixhits one again, and then deleted mine becuase it just says the same thing but not half as well.

- cobra to answer your question: I was astonished to hear american citizens say that Religion has no affect on your life - Countries like Iran excluded America is viewed as probably the most Religiously led country in the world, just look at the presidential elections or the recent "crusade against evil".

sixhits summed it um most succinctly with Religion is currently the dominant force in American poltics and society.

ps. Not choosing a south american Pope was i think a very very bad idea.

[~Po~ TiroFino]

i pay bills, drive on the right side of the road, and i don't hurt anyone.

Then unknowingly, you're living a good Christian life, more so than many that do go to church every Sunday and then come out like little devils doing all sort of evil!   - You see, Jesus will notice your actions, not your words !


On the other hand, for those that don't know how the POPE affects your every day life, even in America, here's an article for you from the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/21/international/worldspecial2/21church.html?th&emc=th&oref=login

*You need to create a free account and login!

[:MoD:Shade]

What is this Pope going to do different that's going to change the way American's live?

People will get upset if he does anything radically different so chances are he will just continue things the way they have always been.

I read the article that TiroFino just posted and I stand somewhat corrected.  But again, Catholicism is one religion and there are many.  It may rule politics but not my day-to-day life.

[BFG]

Its perhaps as much what he isn't going to do as much as what he might do.

[bronto]

sixhits, while all that may be true, i still gotta say when i look at the things in my life, tv and the internet is pretty much the only time i hear about religion, besides the occasional church bells, which i think are quite nice. i understand that at any given moment a bomb could be dropped or some radical christian terrorist could blow up an abortion clinic that i am in (i don't know why i'm in this abortion clinic), but for the time being, religion has done nothing to me except reinforce my agnostic position. we both know about what goes on in this world (you know more about this then i do though), i think we both look at life differently, that's all.

with all that said, even when i don't obey rediculous one sided laws, i still say it's important to vote wisely because america is steadily becoming more and more facsist, religion does influence politics in america (almost as much as money), and people are dying because of it. take iraq for example...bush publicly stated that "god told me to strike iraq". if that's not a holy war, i don't know what is...even if he was just desperately trying to say something to take the heat off of WMDs, you can't say that without being held to it. i don't know why people don't talk about that, i remember seeing it a while ago and thinking it was gonna blow up.

with all their political tools, christian radicals are still a minority. they can start wars and blow up abortion clinics, but in this country they absolutely will not find a loophole to take away our basic freedoms or impose their religion on us in an unescapable way...it's just not gonna happen, there's too much good in this country, no matter how bad it gets, to allow this. as Americans, we've had more freedom taken away from us by big business than by religion.

["Sixhits"]

they absolutely will not find a loophole to take away our basic freedoms or impose their religion on us in an unescapable way...

I'm gladdened by reading your remarks. But I think you need to reconsider one things I said: "The price of freedom is eternal vigiliance."

It is not enough to be a good citizen privately because there are people out there who have an honest and impassioned desire to take from you the rights you thought were sacrosanc. There is a strong movement on the right that has co-opted the Republican party and forced it to become more and more religiously extreme. Look at what happened over Terri Schiavo. Congrees passed a new law in order to control one citizen's private life. Luckily for all of us the courts, even Repulican appointed judges, didn't cave to religious politics.

But have a look here:
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=LH05D02

I'll give you the juice:
Senate Majority Leader Republican Bill First is leading the charge to end the "fillibuster". What's that? It's the way by which the minority party can have influence in the confirmation process of nominees for courts, ambastadorships, and so on. It's one of the key parts of "checks and balances." The Right, a party that used the fillibuster vemontly during the Clinton years, wants it to go away. Why?

"We must stop this unprecedented filibuster of people of faith."

They are abusing the trappings of reiligion in order to alter our government. Perminantly.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/15/politics/15judges.html?hp&ex=1113624000&en=0b42a55582cd9ab5&ei=5094&partner=homepage

"As the Senate heads toward a showdown over the rules governing judicial confirmations, Senator Bill Frist, the majority leader, has agreed to join a handful of prominent Christian conservatives in a telecast portraying Democrats as "against people of faith" for blocking President Bush's nominees."

There is a dark dance going on in the halls of Congress... opposition to the Party in Power is deemed heretical. People believe this shit. That's why you must care. Because the bad guys care a shitload.

They can and did try to control Terri's life and they will attempt to control all of ours.

For a laugh:

[Cossack]

So we have come to the Pope being a nazi to religion being the influence of politics. Many of you people worry me about your anti-religious sentiments. It is this cynical attitude toward beleiving in something that drives me away from the left (then again I run the hell away from the right when I hear any of those so called human beings talk).

Back on to subject, the new Pope is in my opinion a good choice. He may be what us Orthodox christians want in order to reunite the churches of the East and West. However, many of you people do not know what it is like to live in a dictatorial regime and thus blast Benedict for some of his choices. I have lived in one (although Gorby's USSR dosent really compare to Nazi Germany) and I can tell you that you do what they tell you or you die. Now I had a choice to join Kosmosol (Young Communists) and Gorby probablly would not have killed me if I didnt, but ust because Ratzinger joined the Hitler Youth does not a nazi make. My grandmother hails from Pomerania and she was forced to join the Hitler Youth and she was drafted into the German Army as an anti-aircraft gunner during the last days of the war. When a facist bloodlust regime such as Germany drafts you, you go to service, there is no Canada to run to.

As for the Catholic church being anti-semetic, what a load of bullshit. Everyone is anti-semetic if they do not agree with the jews, and by the Israeli (not Jews) government's recent attitude towards christians, I could classify them as anti-Christian, anti-Muslim, and anti-gentile. That is much better than the Vatican's record of opening up relations with israel and Pope John Paul issuing apologies to the Jewish community on behalf of the Catholic's church inability to stop the nazi regime with words. Catholic texts are not anti-semetic, they just dont recognize the Jews as the "Chosen Ones" neither did John Paul and nor should Ratzinger. If Ratzinger is a nazi, then you are a godless leftist reactionary.

Now do not get me wrong, I am not entirely cushy with this pope, afterall his role in the sex abuse scandal is worrying. He should fix the problem and not hide it.

 

[Blitz]

Sixhits, knowing you, you started this thread to spread false items. If you were in Nazi Germany, and you were a boy, would you join the Hitler Youth and live or would you say, "Fuck you!" and get shot?  Go read the book The Moon is Down by John Steinbeck, and learn that being a soldier just taking orders. Just because he joined doesn't mean he's a Nazi, it just means he did something patriotic. Knowing you, being patriotic is curing Conservatives and praising Liberals for God who knows what.

Also, about this crap that religion in politics. First, if religion was in politics, we'd be run by the Pope himself, not elected officials. Another thing, there is a seperation of church and state. Even though America was founded under Christian ideals, it doesn't mean we have to take them.  Seconds, how is the world repeating history? There hasn't been a war that has taken over Europe for years!

About religion in everyday life. First off, I am a Christian, but if you ask me, the bible it to teach morals and bring mankind together, not destroy it. So who cares if someone joined the Nazi party? At the time it was a huge patriotic thing.  Sort of like during WW2 in America. It was very patriotic to join the military.

Now Sixhits, use some common sense before trying to "out smart" me. I know I am not of age to vote, but I know shit.  Who cares if Ratzinger was covering up a problem.  If you watched the news that announced him being the new Pope, didn't you see their happy faces? He was favored by John Paul II because they both had the same views of the world.  Now let's have htis topic die.

Blitz

[bronto]

Just because he joined doesn't mean he's a Nazi, it just means he did something patriotic.

i'm not going to get into the hilarity of the rest of your post, i think i'll just highlight this sentence and leave it to wallow in idiocy for everyone to see. i was going to explain why you are so completely and utterly wrong, but then i decided to give you the benefit of the doubt.....i mean, if you were trying to say he didn't have a choice, you are still wrong (everyone always has a choice, regardless of consequence, if he were truly a righteous man he would have chosen a righteous path, not cowardice), but everyone can understand the choice he made. if this wasn't a typo though, it would certainly explain why the USA is in such a state...

["Sixhits"]

Sixhits, knowing you, you started this thread to spread false items. If you were in Nazi Germany, and you were a boy, would you join the Hitler Youth and live or would you say, "Fuck you!" and get shot?  Go read the book The Moon is Down by John Steinbeck, and learn that being a soldier just taking orders. Just because he joined doesn't mean he's a Nazi, it just means he did something patriotic. Knowing you, being patriotic is curing Conservatives and praising Liberals for God who knows what.

Also, about this crap that religion in politics. First, if religion was in politics, we'd be run by the Pope himself, not elected officials. Another thing, there is a seperation of church and state. Even though America was founded under Christian ideals, it doesn't mean we have to take them.  Seconds, how is the world repeating history? There hasn't been a war that has taken over Europe for years!

About religion in everyday life. First off, I am a Christian, but if you ask me, the bible it to teach morals and bring mankind together, not destroy it. So who cares if someone joined the Nazi party? At the time it was a huge patriotic thing.  Sort of like during WW2 in America. It was very patriotic to join the military.

Now Sixhits, use some common sense before trying to "out smart" me. I know I am not of age to vote, but I know shit.  Who cares if Ratzinger was covering up a problem.  If you watched the news that announced him being the new Pope, didn't you see their happy faces? He was favored by John Paul II because they both had the same views of the world.  Now let's have htis topic die.

Blitz

Your ignorance knows no bounds.

Again, I am amazed to read people defending an ex-nazi. Honestly. Listen to yourselves squirm trying to explain away his dark past. Just for the historical record: nazi Germany had a resistance movement. Any of you bother to study Germany, and I mean, get into the nitty gritty, socio-political wold that was Nazi Germany? I did. I know 1) people had a choice, 2) not everyone was a nazi party member even by the end of the war, 3) there was a strong anti-nazi resistance moment within Germany itself, mostly run by young men and boys. The contemporaries of our current pope.

Our current pope has damned homosexuality as a choice becaues God has given Man free will. You make a choice to be gay. Ok. If that's true, we can apply the same now-infalable logic to the pope's past. He had a choice. HE CHOOSE EVIL.

Additionally, Cossack:

I hope you hell your right that this Pope ends up being a good choice. And I'm not anti-religious: I am anti-fundamentalist. Good people of faith don't throw it in your face; they don't try to disabuse you of your own faith or lack there off; they don't use religion like a hammer dominate nations.

I am not against the kindly old woman who prays every night. I'm against the public figures who call themeselve men and women of God in order to control the faithful and gain political power.

As for the Catholic Church being anti-semitic. It undeniably WAS powerfully anti-semitic (sic, the Inquisition) but more recentily (and we're back on track with nazis) they assisted Hitler in Germany proper and the occupied territories. Please, don't make me go dig up the reams of evidence that discusses this. I can. It will be vast.

Regards.

[BFG]

Damn it Bronto you beat me to it.

Blitz this is beyond hilarious, its a nasty mix of sheer stupidity, arrogance and ignorance.

Now Sixhits, use some common sense before trying to "out smart" me. I know I am not of age to vote, but I know shit.

Also, about this crap that religion in politics. First, if religion was in politics, we'd be run by the Pope himself, not elected officials.

So who cares if someone joined the Nazi party? At the time it was a huge patriotic thing.

Everyones entitled to their opinion etc etc, but at least use your brain before posting on a debate like this, rather than make yourself look quite so ignorant or stupid.

Common sense? I don't think you'd recognize common sense if it walked up and bitch slapped you.


• Following orders is NOT an excuse.
• You don't have to be run by the pope to be living in a society dominated by religion
• Happy faces? did you also learn about the very very unhappy faces - regarding his ultra conservative   view on women?
• I still can't quite belive you actually wrote this shit: "Just because he joined doesn't mean he's a Nazi, it just means he did something patriotic"

edit, damnit sixhits again

[:MoD:Shade]

Why are we arguing anyway?

He's the Pope and there's nothing we can do about it.

We can't change the way he thinks nor can we change his past.

Obviously all the other Cardinals that voted for him thought he would be the right guy so who are we to tell them that they are wrong.

["Sixhits"]

One final point:
In the Nuremburg Trials after the war Nazis were put on trial for the various shit they did. A common defense was, "I just followed orders." Such an excuse was not enough to spare men the gallows.

Following orders was the excuse of fascists when faced with the monstrosity their actions had produced.



In any event, this dicussion is about two things for me: 1) the rank hypocracy of people who appologize for the actions, past or present, of religious bigots, crimminals, and yeah, nazis. 2) that case in point is the new nazi pope.

A postscript to all this is that what we think, feel, say, and do in response to the election of a nazi as pope reflects on our character. As a nation, Americans have been mixed, thank goodness. But the fact that so many here and in the greater nation just don't care makes me fear for our democracy. If you don't care, then someone who does will determine shit for you.