*DAMN R6 Forum

You know, I was thinking about something today....

I was trying to figure out why so many people on this forum disagree with me on so many topics, many of which revolve around politics and religion.  And then it hit me....very few of you know what I know.  Few of you are Christians, from what I can tell, and so I would guess that many of you, if not most, have no clue what the "endgame" is for this world.  Well, I know what is to come, and that makes my view on things a bit different than many on this forum.  My views are actually in line with over half of the people of the United States, even though the liberals and the media would try to make you think that is not the case.

But here is the part that really changes the way I think about things....

You see, in the end, Jesus will come and bring to heaven all those who are saved on this earth.  There will then be 7 years of tribulation, during which the world will be laid to waste.  Then the earth will be reformed as it was originally, with a fermament, and Jesus will reign here for 1,000 years with his deciples.  If you aren't a Christian, you probably can't even begin to fathom these things, and it also explains why most of you don't follow my line of thinking when it comes to things.  Things like why I feel it is an upmost priority to defend the last slice of freedom and Christianity left in the world (the United States).  That includes defending it from WITHIN, from the liberals who would destroy the very things this nation was founded on.

So anyhow, in my mind, I have come to realize why I will forever be at odds with most of you liberals that dwell on this forum.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.[/size]

     Wow. You complain about the "liberal media" twisting things to fit their own views, yet you ignore the fact that the founders of America were NOT REPEAT NOT Christians. I'll say it real slow for you: THIS COUNTRY WAS NOT FOUNDED ON CHRISTIANITY.

Yes, because you know how much Jesus Christ loves wars, especially ones fought in his name. Gee golly, Jesus must be so proud, seeing so many people being killed. We all know how much Jesus was a warmonger, after all. Oh wait. What's that? Jesus was a pacifist? Oh! Well, with all of these wars fought to protect Christianity, surely he must want that? Wait a second. Wasn't it Jesus who told Peter not to draw his sword? I'm sure confused. How is it that you can listen to one part of the Bible, yet completely ignore the rest of it? A true Christian would follow all of Christ's teachings. Fighting wars isn't a very Christian act.

Sure it was.  "In God We Trust".  But really, does this sound like a person who founded this nation on secularism?:

"I now make it my earnest prayer the God would have you and the State over which you preside, in His holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field; and, finally, that he would be most graciously pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation."

-George Washington, In a letter to the governors of the states on disbanding the army, June 8, 1783[/size]

No, it is YOU who are only quoting from one section of the Bible.  Why don't you take a look at the Old Testament where God told Israel to conquer its enemies through war, and even aided them in their endeavor.[/size]

GhostSniper i am very Republican just as you are, and i am a christian. The thing is that i don't go to church or feel very strong about religion. I believe in Christ, and i believe the bible. The thing is that religion and politics shouldn't be in the same place. Politically i agree with you, but on the topic of religion I'm afraid i don't feel as strong as you. If it happens then yes you're right, but i don't count on it in my life time.

I understand.  Even the Apostles believed Jesus would come back in their lifetimes....and I believe that he may come back in my lifetime.  With the look of things, we are getting very close to the last days.  Especially when you consider the European Union.  One of the things that has to be in place, by Biblical Prophecy, is One World Government....which is getting closer and closer.[/size]

your argument about religion is irrelevant in regard to politic, since this is only speculation on what might happen later on. You should rather base your arguing on facts that have been prooved, and facts are by definition in the past, not in the future.

I'm not going to argue on a spiritual level with you, since i think everybody's entitled to its own dreams.
But your sermon, or more specifically the analysis after it reminds me very much about those old religion wars that took place in Europe several centuries ago, when religion held the power over politic.

Now you dont need to go back that far. Why are palestinian fighting irsraelis ? What happened in Kosovo ? What's happening in Sudan ? Religion is good, but people like you make a bad use of it.

     You will please note that I said that the Founding Fathers were not Christian. That is a true statement. The majority of them were Deists. Deists believe in the God of the Bible, but disbelieve in the Church.

     Regardless, the religions of the Founding Fathers are beside the point. They, unlike some other people, were smart enough to realize that mixing religion and governance is a terribly unwise thing to do. You know, freedom of religion? If the Founding Fathers had held opinions like you or Dubya, the Constitution would instead have had an article establishing the Church of America and setting forth various penalties for nonbelievers.

     And hey, if you're devout enough to view the Old Testament as the inviolate Word of God, then I shall assume that you are observing the will of God and you do not eat shellfish or cut the hair at your temples or wear cloth of mixed fibers, and that you offer up burnt offerings to the glory of God.

Ah yes, the good ol-religious debate.  I can smell the flames already.

Excuse me while i set up my lawn chair and get the popcorn, cuz this one's going to be a doozy.

I predict this will go on for...hmmm...five days before it gets way off topic and gets locked.

I am also christain, I attended church until I was around 13 years old, and then typical teenage apathy set in. I've studied the history of the church, I took a confirmation class, and I'm into history, and I still strongly believe a religon and politics should not be mixed.

I respect your views and understand how deeply you feel about them. My mother is deeply religious as well, so I can relate to your feelings on the matter. However, to paint Liberals as any less patriotic than yourself is a gross misrepresentation. A Liberal as defined by modern philosopher Richard Rorty, is a person who finds cruelty to fellow man as one of the most deplorable actions. In this sense I am absolutely a Liberal.

The USA was founded on the premise that freedom is an inalienable right. We all share the freedom to make decisions about who we are and what we stand for. To say that Liberals are out to destroy the USA is simply wrong. If our founding fathers did not grow dissatisfied with the status quo, the USA would never exist. If not for progressive Liberal movements the USA would not be the guiding light for humanity.

I believe Jesus was the first great Liberal, in that he too found cruelty to be abhorrent. He also said "Blessed be the meek" and "Pride goeth before a fall", would he approve of our government? Would he approve of War? Would he favor those who are blinded by greed? Would he lay waste to innocent people because they believe in a different word? The Christianity that exists today is a far cry from what Jesus was all about. It seems that time and mankind have contorted what was once honest and just, into an apparatus that oppresses and thrives on fear.

did you know that there were thousands of other books to the new testament that got destroyed by the catholic church because they showed jesus for who he really was? A REGULAR JEW DOOD< CHILLIN. he had sex with mary magdiline, it is documented. not only that but one of the roman emperors ( i forget which one) acually held a sectret metting to figure out and construct the whole christian religion.

and even if religion was a viable set of rules. would destroying mother nature and killing others be justified? no, so either way, you don't win.

peace "TheGoldenShark out"

Actually GS, im Catholic, if that means anything here.

Because, (appologies to all normal level headed christians) it means jack shit. Because you don't apply fucking politics and Forign policy to some bullshit written in a book supposidly a few thousand years old. So fucking what if someone did say that, dosn't mean that the israelis have the right to treat the palestinans like shit and to invade their homes and kill their people, and it dosn't give the palestians the right to blow up israelis.

You have the right to believe what you will, most of us do, thats one of the gifts we have in modern democracys to an extent. However you don't have the right to apply or force your religious beliefs on others. Ghostsniper it feels like you are doing to Christianity what Terrorist bombers are doing to Islam. Distortion and twisting it to suit your own personal views and issues in such an extreamist fundamentalist way that well,  I Just can't deal with that.

First of all, GS, I've no problem with disagreement - it makes forum debates a whole lot more interesting.


I respect your right to believe what you choose.  However, when fundamentalists state a belief as knowledge, they distort the meaning of language.  How do you know all of these things?  Because you are a Christian and it said so in the Bible.  Yet consider your source - the Bible existed before you were born - and you were not born knowing your religion.  You learned it - from your parents, from church.  Now, is it a fair statement that your "knowledge" is actually based on faith?  You believe things to be true, but there is no way for you to actually verify them outside of the initial source.  

That's fine, but don't tell me you know how the world will end.  I have a very different conception of how the world will end, based on my beliefs.  Thus I could tell you that I know the endgame as well.  Yet if our views are different, how can this be?  Ahh...you believe that you know the endgame.  Your courage of your convictions is admirable, but do not let it allow you to be impervious to new understanding.  It is possible, within your faith as a Christian, to accept the possibility that you do not actually know everything - that you have misunderstood, that God has not revealed to you everything, or even that your own Lord Jesus Christ is deliberately misleading you in hopes of allowing you to think for your true path.  How do you know?  What if part of the Bible has been lost or mistranslated?  I could go on...

Bottom line - have faith in whatever you choose, but do not profess to know what even your own faith cannot verify.


Over half of the population is Christian, but far less than half interpret the Bible literally, and many do not attend church.  Of course you can't give a media example, but perhaps you could back up such a sweeping statement with a fact?  Of course, you're welcome to believe that statistic on faith, but again, how do you know?


I'm not a practicing Christian, yet I understand the Christian concept of the Apocalypse.  Only, unlike a peasant of the Middle Ages, I'm not excited by the prospect of chaos and destruction followed by a thousand-year reign of only the like-minded.  I don't like it, and I don't believe it.  And I don't consider the message of destruction of non-believers to be an especially Christian message.  And eternal damnation of those who differ is really just a ridiculous mindset.  Excuse me, but how can you condemn every holy, moral, good person in the world who just doesn't share your faith?  Rabbis, imams, the Pope...I'm sure Jesus really wants them to go to hell. (sarcasm)

I respect your right to your opinion, but the opinion itself, when it consigns 90% of the world's population to hell, is an absolutely untenable position, akin to bigotry in my mind.

Damn it if only i could post my thoughts that clearly and concisely Loudnotes... I wouldn't come across as such a mad raving lunatic! :)

"I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.  So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."[/size][/i]

Romans 1:14-32

For a book written 2,000 years ago by some stupid men of God, they sure were accurate.[/size]

So are you actually going to respond to people's posts, or just quote a passage that in no way supports the accuracy or efficacy of any statement you've made?  And how can you call that accurate - you can't use a source to prove itself - the Bible does not prove the Bible!

I think you need to go back and read the last half of that passage.  I'm assuming you stopped after the first sentence, because if you had read the rest, you would see that those things are happening in abundance these days.[/size]

You guessed wrong.  I read the passage several times, though I'd seen it before, in order to try and get at your meaning, since there wasn't any theological interpretation of which I was aware that backed up any of your previous statements.  Then I remembered that you don't interpret the writings, but instead take the exact meanings of the words - excuse me, the translated words.  And frankly, on re-reading the passage yet again, I don't see anything especially significant - the sins mentioned have all been frequent throughout history.  There are more people in the world today, so there will be more of everything in total, but I haven't noticed any change in the proportion of evil.

That being said, you have merely pointed out that there is evil in the world - which by no means proves any other assertion I and others have taken issue with.

The vast majority of Americans are Christians.  

The vast majority of Americans are NOT fundamentalist Christians.

The reason most people disagree with you, Ghost, is the degree to which you take your faith.  It's one thing to believe, it's another to attempt to follow a 2,000 year old text literarly, and bash those that disagree with you over the head with your faith.

I hope that if the world dose come to an end I will be there to see it.

Anyway I don't have a religion and I don't think there is a god like most people conceive him.

My idea of god is kind of mother natior kind of thing. A different kind of intelligence working in the background kind of like a different plain of thinking.

I accept the fact that I could very well be wrong and I have no problem with that.

What makes me believe there is some kind of god is the fact that a flower can grow to use insects for pollination but that flower has never seen a insect and has no concept of it but still it has evolved to use them. For me thats is some sort of higher intelligence somewhere.

I don't think Jesus will come back from the dead and the end of the world will start. I also think we are not alone in the universe.

Now its 5 in the morning and I will probably get up in the morning and wonder what the hell I was writing.

Ross

lots of people did predictions, the most famous being Nostradamus. The thing, you see whatever you wanna see in those words.

GS, start reading this:
"Thou shalt not kill."

Ummm... what religion is this? I'm am a lutheran (in the sense that I'm lutheran on papers) and I can't remember anything like this from the bible.. . Is this a catholic thing?

It is the book of Revelation...its at the back of the Bible ;) I'm Lutheran too (sort of.)

However, I don't believe much of what was in the Bible. People love reading and interpreting saying "hey, this sign of the apocalypse is here" of course I wonder, if God was allowing these predictions, why didn't he just have them write, "and then the anti-Christ, Bush, will launch a war in Iraq..." vagueness is the sign of a bullshit artist, what, did God not know the proper names of these future events...I thought he was omnipotent. Besides, the majority of the New Testement we get from Paul, who never met Jesus (well, allegedly he met the ghost of Jesus) yet somehow he knows all about what Jesus wants? Personally, if I thought I saw a ghost of Jesus and had God telling me what he wants, I'd think I'd gone mad, I wouldn't write a fucking book. And if I felt hostile towards women and gays, I'd have to admit that I'm suppressing my homosexuality. Paul was a mysogynistic, homophobic, nutter who would simply be sent to a mental institution if he lived in a different age.

It is odd how fundamentalists both take the Bible as inerrant word of God...yet also are so selective in choosing what to act upon.

Read the whole thing...

So question is still there like Loudnotes said. Are you actually going to respond to people's posts, or just quote a passage that in no way supports the accuracy or efficacy of any statement you've made?? The Bible does not prove the Bible!

GS, the quote you have there does not only describe the world today, but also the world this last 6000 years of recorded history.... When this was written, 4000 of those 6000 years had passed. It dosnt take a genious to undestand that the next 2000 years will be pretty much the same. What I wish you could answer to us non-believers out here is this:

1. How acurate can this book be? After all, the words that are written in it had been passed from generation to generation for many generations before anyone wrote them down.

2. This book was written in ancient greek. And the beginning of the book describes the word of which it all started. Now I wonder, how can we be so sure that it was supposed to be the word "word", when this has many meanings in greek? One of which is "thought".

3. What makes you so sure your interpretation is correct? Many others have different views on this, but all seem sure that theirs is correct?

Well, I do believe you will find answers to my questions.

What?

Right, faith - Hitler had it.... Faith in what he was doing, that what he was doing was right.

Faith in things can be good - but as soon as that faith is blown out of proportion - as soon as you become fanatical about your faith you head down a scary path... and that is probably why most people disagree with you GS - we all have faith in one thing or another - but we are not blinded by our faith in somthing beyond recognition which it sometimes appears you are.

yayayaya see you in hell mate. U get the sausages i'll bring the tins

I prefer to believe the free market version of afterlife destinations.

I think hell is probably a pretty sweet place because Satan wants to attract people. Sure, it may feature some of the more lewd sinful activities like wild fornication, drug experimentation, and perhaps real life video games where you shoot each other to fuck, but on the whole it won't be incredibly painful, just wild and crazy fun.

Heaven on the other hand is painless, but perhaps boring with all its morality. I don't think God is going to let you be tapping that find angel's ass.

But heck, since I have faith in this, it must be true.

Did you read any of my posts GS?  I accepted that you believe things based on faith, and I already critiqued it.  Do you have any response to that, or can you?

You still forget the bigoted illogic of your argument that everyone who doesn't share your faith will go to hell.  How can you believe that your just and merciful God would send so many righteous people (who simply have different faiths) to an eternity of torment?  What about the examples I cited...?

Is Mother Theresa in hell because she was Catholic, and not a fundamentalist Protestant?  Is the Dalai Lama going to hell?  How about your average rabbi, or non-fundamentalist Christian minister - are they going to hell, GS?  How about the 5.5 billion people in this world who don't agree with you - are we all going to hell?  Does it make any difference how righteously we live our lives?  Why should I adopt a moral attitude against war, when I'm going to hell anyway?  Yet I do believe it is wrong - I have faith, even, that it was wrong.  Yet you have the audacity to tell me I will go to hell with my beliefs?

THAT, GS, is why people don't agree with you.  You discount every opinion that contradicts your faith as irrelevant.  You haven't responded to 90% of the assertions in this thread because you can make no other response than, "My faith says otherwise."  Take some time to think about why you have such a strong faith in your beliefs.  You may find they're not quite as just as you think.

But that means that only Christians go to heaven and thus all others go to hell...and thus specific religions that are not Christian do go to hell. Why are the 2 billion Christians right and the 1.5 billion Muslims wrong? The Qur'an has just as much validity as the Bible.

Hm, the popes seemed to find enough justification in the bible to launch five or so crusades to kill muslims. Come to think of it, there have been quite a few wars based/created/justified by the bible.

oh my god, am I dreaming  :o

Umm, the Qur'an doesn't tell believers to kill non-believers any more than the Bible does. And those that do kill in the name of faith are just as much distorting and perverting the word of god in Islam as they are in Christianity.

Hahaha Im sorry GS but the Bible dosn't stand up shit compared to the Qur'an.

Read what bondo said again - It dosn't tell believers to kill non-believers any more than the bible does. Those terrorists who claim to be acting in the name of their religeon are doing the same as you - picking bits from the books that they want to live by/force others to live by etc.

indeed, i am dreaming .

Actually, Ive never heard that the qur'an tells its ppl to kill non believers, but i know that leaving the faith is suposed to be punished by death. As for you GS accepting your fait, and what YOU see as your destiny is great. Good to see you have found  the meaning of life. And I even respect you for it. What I dont like is that you are trying to "sell" your faith to us. Many of us here choose to believe, many of us dont. I for one dont. Im an atheist, and I know you think I will burn in hell. But let me tell you something about my "beliefs". I became an athist in 97. Had been doubting for a few years but I guess that was my wakening. You see, I looked out into the world and saw nothing but pain and misery, caused by war, famine and disease. And guess what, I find it hard to believe in a good god while seing this. Well, this is where believers say that "God gave us free will, and this is caused by the downfall of man caused by its free will. Which man used to do evil. Its Gods punishment to mankind". Well, if a god gave mankind free will, why the hell is its requirements for salvation belief? No matter how evil you are, as long as you in your dying moment accept god, it saves you. On the other hand, you can be mother theresa and do wonderful things for mankind, but it wont save you as long as you dont believe....what crap is that?? And lets look at the bible...both parts. In the old one, you have a vengful god, in the new one you have a forgiving god......lets look again. Old one, no son. New one, a son. Sooooo...god suddenly had a change of hearts when jesus was born? a son put a new perspective on things? You see GS, if there ever was a god, and the end of the world came about during my time, and I would have to stand before god and answer to what it would see as my crimes i would say this:  "I refuse to accept you as a father, you left man behind and did whatever you wanted. I refuse to give you the right to call me son, for there is no place here for you." But luckily, this will most likely not happen, for I dont believe there IS or ever WAS a god.(But, being a fan of David Hume, I cant prove anything 100%, but I must believe what my heart tells me).

Now, think of me what you like. I think of you as I like. I respect your beliefs. Now you respect mine.

Ah, then we agree...on having different views. Cheers for that.

"We agree to disagree" god i hate that term.

Nope, you see, we dont disagree. We really do respect eachothers opinions.....and yeah, I was trying to avoid the term "disagree" ;)

Spike, lets agree to disagree about that.  :D

Damn, if what GS believes is right, then hell might be over capacity when this generation dies.

GS, I don't expect you to respond to every point anyone makes, I just take issue with your dismissing people's statements with an irrelevant biblical passage.  And what you just wrote about judgement day, etc. was almost verbatim to what I have heard others of your faith say.  Yet it doesn't answer the question.  Let's pick on specific example:

Does the Dalai Lama (the most holy, peaceful person I can think of) deserve an eternity in hell because he does not accept Jesus as his savior?  Why?

I think how near the election is (in relative terms to how long we have spoken of it) is just making GS a bit crazy. I mean if I was a republican and saw the election being this close again, I too would worry about Mr. Puppet going out before the US can declare war on say Syria, or N. Korea...

I know it sounds harsh, but the Bible (which I believe in completely) clearly states that you can not get to heaven unless you ask Jesus to save you.  Here is a passage of scripture which explains this:

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:  The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.  Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?  Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?  Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.  After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.  And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.  For John was not yet cast into prison.  Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.  And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.  John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.  Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.  He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.  He must increase, but I must decrease.  He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.  And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.  He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.  For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.[/size]

John 3:1-36

I'm sorry(and yes I did read the entire passage) but that is one of the largest problems I have had with christainity. It just doesn't make sense that millions of people in the world who do not subscirbe to christianity, and yet subscribe to perfectly legimate, reasonable and peaceful religons get screwed. Who is to say that we are right? Why aren't they right?

Just comes down to faith my friend.  You can either believe in it, or dismiss it like millions, if not Billions, of people have done throughout history.  I am not going to condemn you for not believing, but someday God may.[/size]

I'm planning on a quick deathbed repentence ;)

Hey ghost, im Lutheran so i know just what ur talkin about, and it makes sense.  In fact all this fighting in the world now sorta seems to mean that tribulation is comin soon... who knows  ???

GS, this is just ignorance. You can believe what you want, and say what you want, but come on now, you can't seriously believe the billions of people with different cultures will all end up in hell because they don't believe in your religion? I just can't grasp your reasoning here. You can twist any words into whatever you want but seriously, it's a book as far as billions of people are concerned.

I wonder what the look on GS's face would be if he got rejected....

Would probably look pretty sad.[/size]

Okay, so now I see where you are coming from.  Now, I understand you believe in the Bible un-questioningly, but have you ever taken a moment to question whether this situation is just.

From a moral and ethical standpoint, is it right in your opinion that the Dalai Lama should go to hell?

GS, if you believe in everything the Bible says...how do you manage to believe mutually exclusive things when the Bible contradicts itself?

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

The bible contradicts itself in the first few chapters of the book of genesis. The bible is a collection of stories, the details may differ, but the over all feeling remains the same.

The Bible does not contradict itself.  It says the same thing a different way in different parts, and it sometimes tells the same story through the eyes of different people, but it does not contradict itself.  If it did, if it really contradicted itself, then all religions based on the Bible would have fallen apart 2,000 years ago.  2,000 years of standing Christianity based on the Bible is proof of its perfection.  And that is far more convincing to me than some deviant trying to make people disbelieve.[/size]

Then there a lot of religions that are even more perfect, GS. I don't know why you christians who are supposed to be so understanding and whatnot always are the most aggressive and narrow-sighted. Yes, you. Not the muslims. You.

I repeat: The christians - YOU

Compare the number of deaths to innocent people (includes rapes and plunders if you wish) in the name of God with the one's in the name of any other religion.

Christian people simply know best all the darn time and they are so nonchalant. It's a pity such a good religion attracts so much SCUM (not you, gs).

I am a confirmated catholic (converted, at that) so I know my christianity well enough to say that most americans has got it all wrong. Yes, ALL wrong. The Bible has a lot more to tell you if read it allegorically.

Christians are murderers.
Muslims are murderers.

How is Jihad any fucking different from Bush saying God is on America's side?

One large pfffft @ american christianity and the lack-wits that pursue it (this MIGHT include you, gs)

Whatever.

Actulay the bible does contradict its slef alot.. Well the King James Transation does.. due to the fact of you loose the trues meaning of the words in the original lang when you translate them to other lang.. and b/c of the fact the the KJV is in old english.. with some words used back them have a diff meaning then they do now.. In the KJV of the bibble.. It says to fear god.. but in old english.. fear was an evporesion meaning love.. so its realy saying to Love god.. but yes there are alot of places where the modern bible contractics itslef and where the modern church does also.

Ok i think thats taking it a touch far... firstly those terrorists who claime to be acting for/in the name of etc their religeon are talking bullshit - they are in no means true muslims and the Koran does in no way support or allow what they are doing.

As for the christians...well i know lots of guys that ar christian and not murderers ;)

Then again if your talking fanatical fundamentalist christians...


You want a good religon? Somthing that is really increadably possitive, caring and just makes me feel good knowing their are people like that... Buddism. Without a doubt. Forget the rest.

What's your source?  I've read often that over half of the Founding Fathers were ordained ministers.  I've only heard of 2 that proclaimed themselves Deists.  3 if you count Paine as a Founding Father.  The Bible was written by men, and has been rewritten and edited by men over the centuries.  For the devout, it doesn't matter.  Finding small imperfections doesn't change the actual meaning, the message found in the pages.  

A real irony is that moslems are supposed to read the Bible, and are taught that Jesus was a prophet of god.  The two beliefs are very close together, but both sides forget the tolerance that is preached and think the other side is doomed to hell.  

Faith is good.  Faith is more than good.  Faith should never ridiculed.  Anyone that makes fun of christians or moslems or jews or anyone else because of their faith is just as wrong and screwed up as the worst example of the religious zealot.  If you put your beliefs or lack thereof before another persons, you are joining in the worst practice of most organized churches.  Nobody really knows the truth, at least nobody talking, so live and let live.  Funny how so many people so learned can't accept that.  Everyone should just get over themselves, let go of the ego, and accept people for their own beliefs.  No, respect them for having made a choice, no matter what the choice is.  

The only thing wrong with the bible thumping christians that want to stop gay marriages and such is the exact same thing that is wrong with the atheist not wanting "god" in the pledge, and the exact same thing that's wrong with terrorists blowing up markets.  Everyone needs to stop trying to force their own ideals upon everyone else.  We'll all find out the truth when it's our time.  Till then, EVERYONE IS RIGHT.  Deal with it and show some tolerance.

Muslims Muslims ;) But youve got a point - people often forget how close the two religions tie in with each other.

BFG, Moslem is an acceptable alternate spelling.

I think a lot of the founding fathers were Unitarian. Not exactly Christian.

oh shit sorry... just sounded really funny (god im easily amused) !

ps. have a read of this if you can face it... http://members.aol.com/TestOath/deism.htm

I'm inclined to agree with your post as a whole, but there are a few lines worth critiquing, since you've adopted a rather sweeping and omniscient style in your anonymity.


Fundamentalists, however, often base their "interpretation" of the meaning in the pages off of a very literal reading of the text.  Rather than searching for deeper meanings, ones which might very possibly hinge on the translational veracity, they accept the Word in hand as absolute and not open to discussion.  How they apply that to life may vary, but, for a specific example in this thread - where a fundamentalist sees the post-apolcalyptic 1000-year reign of Christ as a literal 1000 revolutions of Earth around sun, many other Christians view the passage as a message of hope that a long peace will follow the greatest periods of strife.  If the translation did not actually read "1000 years," their understanding would in fact be changed.


Faith can be good.  It can be a powerful comforting and motivating force, it can sustain and enrich life in many ways.  However, blind faith can also be very dangerous.  When faith blindly contradicts epistemological truth, it is worthy of ridicule.  For while no one can prove or disprove religious faith in the existence of God, there is plenty of evidence - within the constraints of our sense perception - that, for example, there are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.  Continuing to have faith that there are weapons, especially without solid evidence, is irrational and perfectly worthy of ridicule.  Overall, faith in religion is fine, but faith that directly counters established truth is unacceptable.

To counter my own argument, I would also contend that their are times when even religious faith is excessive, such as when someone professes a "religious" belief counter to accepted religious standards.  Perverted militant strands of both Islam and Christianity (and probably Judaism, though I can't name an example) evidence this.  Violence and intolerance, as fundamentally un-Christian, un-Islamic, a-religious principles, are worthy of ridicule no matter what "religious" legitimacy someone attempts to ascribe them.


Much as I said above, although I take issue with your pledge reference.  God in the pledge is a specific religious reference that distinctly infringes on an atheist, whereas the lack of God in the pledge does not in any way reduce its significance (after all, one is still pledging loyalty to a nation, not a religion) to religious people.  Your example should be the other way around - religious zealots (also anti-communist 1950s fear-mongers) should not force their views of our nation as being "under God" on those who do not believe that to be the case.

Finally, while everyone may be right in their own minds, when two beliefs contradict each other directly, there is sometimes the possibility that one is right and the other wrong.  When and if that may be proven, the incorrect faith can be fairly considered illegitimate.

Only if they read it in the original language, so as to not be subject to transcription errors.  Men translated the bible many times.  There are plenty of transcription errors in other documents from that period, why not the bible?  


Since we are talking religion, your Iraq comments are totally out of place and ignorant.  It's called context, look it up.

I also said "faith".  Not "blind faith".  Maybe you should look for clarification, not conflict.


I would ask what someone trying to attach legitimacy of religion to their actions has to do with actual faith, since I see no connection.

Faith is a belief in something that cannot be proven correct or incorrect.  Believing it for many reasons.  Violence based upon religious fervor or the pretense of such is a sham, not faith.


I don't believe the word "God" can infringe upon an atheist, since to them it means nothing.  And trying to make the united states atheist is pushing a belief.  The united states was built by christians upon christian morality, if you don't believe me do more research.  But it was also built with tolerance for all beliefs or lack thereof.  It is ironic because it seems atheists push their beliefs more than any other group, and try to use the separation of church and state to mean devoid of god instead of not ruled by the church.  

My example is that of an atheist trying to remove the word "god" from our culture and it's trappings.  God is a big part of the american culture, like it or not.


In the context of my discussion, this is stupid, since it can never be proven.  That's the whole point.

The word God does not mean "nothing" to an athiest just because they don't believe in it.

Having "one nation under god" is distinctly religious

Not having "one nation under god" is distinctly secular, not distinctly athiest.

If it said "one nation without a god" then it would be atheists pushing beliefs. As it stands, it is very much an endorsement of Judeo-Christian faith and saying that it is directly tied to our government (if we are under god as a nation, god controls us, but that is unConstitutional, god is not to control our country.)

I don't see why you won't indentify yourself.  Don't you be an ass-pirate either ;)

Since you posted in a thread about Ghostsniper's faith-based assumptions, I read your post in the context of the thread.  Since you apparently didn't read the thread through and were only posting regarding "faith" as a religious device, our entire argument is moot.

As I said in my first line, I do agree with your overriding point.  I took issue with fragments of it because in more general terms, your statements about faith are dangerous.  On religious grounds we already agree in the importance of tolerance.

If you're going to make blanket assertions anonymously, expect criticism.

Yes it can be turned off, but Mauti chose to allow it.  Mostly it's because people will from time to time want to post when they are away from their home computers, and they don't remember their account passwords or don't wish to log in on a public computer.

Good for you.

I don't mind anonimous speach.  If someone doesn't care to post their name then just analyize what they say accordingly -- they were unwilling to credit themselves with their comment.

Which can say a lot about their credablity, or not. :-)

(of course, it makes it much easier to discredit anonimous speakers cause, well, what I said above.  But it doesn't make them inherently un-credable.)



I found Don't Go Looking For Conflict's comments quite meaningful. Tho I do disagree with the thesis of his name.

The only problem with provocative anonymous posters is that they're not usually outsiders.  I'd be willing to bet that Don't/Guess is actually a registered or formerly registered member of this forum - someone either trying out a new persona or reprising an old one.  I've already made my guess in an earlier post.

Naturally such posts pique one's curiousity when they're well-written and even slightly antagonistic.  I'd like to know who's behind the words.

Whoever wrote it was pretty coherent.  That's a rarity on this forum.

They didn't just mouth off, like I do, bu they had a focused point, a telling rebuttal, and a point of view I haven't heard on here before.

I agree.  Though I feel like I've heard it before.