*DAMN R6 Forum

http://www.viciouspit.com/

Enjoy

yes at the time we were supposing it was a sad day, but now we got momentum to confirm that very first thought.

You know.. I used to want to vote for kerry.. but the more and more of this shit that peeps keep making up.. im leaning towards voting for bush.. why.. b/c im tired of all this shit.. Fuck the pussy named kerry.

cant really say i blame you on kerry, i mean he's doing a poor job lately, and seem to be unable to get out of that "your past is worth than mine" loop. But that doesnt make Bush any better

Where is any of this confirmed?

speaking of FLA, Nader is out !

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/local/9614100.htm

Wow thats quite an original take on democracy... What was it land of the free, home of democracy or somthing?

I HAVE THREE PURPLE HEARTS! THAT MAKES ME UBER COOOL!!!!!!1!11 errrrrr

I DOGED THE DRAFT, USED MY FAMILY CONNECTIONS TO MAKE MONEY THAT MAKES ME UBER COOL!!!!111!!!!

it will only end if kerry wins. i'm also sick of seeing them, but i think it's important that the truth be told of our current situation.


ps LMAO SPIKE!

It's amazing to me that people can call these facts "made up".

It's not made up; it happened.  You need to come out of denial and look at the facts.

Frankly, how can you not be upset that thousands of people were stripped of their voting rights by the Bush Election co-chair for Florida? Harris was the Bush Election chair.  How do we know?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/08/08/politics/main305435.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/08/08/politics/main305435.shtml)

"Secretary of State Katherine Harris, who also served as co-chair of Bush's Florida campaign, had said repeatedly that she had erected "a firewall" during the election between her state office and the Republican Party."

Right.

"The documents found on her state computers endorsing Mr. Bush were among tens of thousands of computer files released by Harris last week after reporters questioned whether she had erased records about the 2000 election that a newspaper had asked to examine"

You can watch a BBC investigative report on Florida here:  The reporter is great.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/newsnight/palast.ram (http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/newsnight/palast.ram)

Harvey, inform yourself.

And another thing -- pussy? Why? Because he's fought for his country and the other guy didn't? Because he had the strength to question the President, while the president is too weak to offer anything back other than insults and slanders? I call bullshit on you. A pussy is a wimp, a coward, or a bully. Bush is all three.

That just makes me sad for humanity.

And Harv, before you think its false, go find proof that it is.  There's been loads of stuff brought to the surface that proves that whats said in that is true, just look at the above posts, and the links that they provide, then tell us how its so false.

"A pussy is a wimp, a coward, or a bully" .....Ok....so if ur not the bully and ur not the wimp....who r u? Oh yeah and thats the best description of Kerry ive heard in a long time. Kerry = a five letter word for wimp.

I find it amusing that you call a man who killed enemies and had one of the more risky jobs anyone could have in war, a wimp.

Wow Rebel you sound just like Bush but maybe still just a bit more intelligent - Its petty insults and bitching without anything solid to back up your 'argument'

oh yeah Kerrry's a wimp, unlike bush the guy dosn't seem to want to start WWIII so he must be a wimp.....

Actually, we don't know for sure exactly what Kerry did during Vietnam, because he won't sign a DD180 to let us in on his little secret.  Bush signed a DD180 a long time ago to make ALL of his military records public....I wonder why Kerry won't do the same?  The only military records of John F'ing Kerry anyone has seen thus far are the ones that KERRY has let us see.  Well, I call bullshit on that.

Also, if you want to know why he was a pussy:

It's because he aided and abetted the enemy in time of war.  His statements, video tapes, and anti-war propaganda shortly after his service in Vietnam (but while the war was still going on), showed up in North Vietnamese hands and were used against our POWs still being held at that time.  Do you all know that John F'ing Kerry is considered a HERO of the Communists in Vietnam even today???  There is a bust of his head in a hall of heros of the Communists in Ho Chi Minh City (formerly Saigon) as we speak.  So, I also call bullshit on that!

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.[/size]

GS, what were your thoughts about what this thread really was about?

Yeah that freedom of speech stuff really blows. He should have moved to a country that actually allows some form of freedom of speech.

Actually, we don't know for sure exactly what Kerry did during Vietnam, because he won't sign a DD180 to let us in on his little secret.  Bush signed a DD180 a long time ago to make ALL of his military records public....I wonder why Kerry won't do the same?  The only military records of John F'ing Kerry anyone has seen thus far are the ones that KERRY has let us see.  Well, I call bullshit on that.

Also, if you want to know why he was a pussy:

It's because he aided and abetted the enemy in time of war.  His statements, video tapes, and anti-war propaganda shortly after his service in Vietnam (but while the war was still going on), showed up in North Vietnamese hands and were used against our POWs still being held at that time.  Do you all know that John F'ing Kerry is considered a HERO of the Communists in Vietnam even today???  There is a bust of his head in a hall of heros of the Communists in Ho Chi Minh City (formerly Saigon) as we speak.  So, I also call bullshit on that!

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.[/size]


Are you safe today, dude?  Hope the family is well.

If all of Bush's docs are available then why does the White House keep releasing new records?  They say they've released everything. As with everything else the White House says, it's a lie.  Their own actions proved otherwise.

Saying something is so -- like we're turning the corner -- does not make it so. Again, this is faith based politics -- where's the facts?

And it's is your opinion that Kerry aided the enemy.  The truth is he killed the enemy and was honored for his bravery, then came home and bravely defended America yet again in the face of irresponsible and immoral leadership. John Kerry has always fought for us and for what he believes in.

I believe the most heroic thing you can do is stand up to evil -- Nixon was evil, the war was wrong, and Kerry had the guts to stand up to them and speak the truth. May we all be so brave.

Kerry's still fighting for us today, too, facing down an irresponsible leader who blames every failure on someone else instead of facing the fact that he's failed us again and again. Kerry will hold Bush accountable. I want responsible, strong, honest leadership. Kerry brings that to America.


What has four years of Bush brought us?
-  Repeated national defense failures of magnitudes never before seen in America.  On Bush's watch, America was attacked. On Bush's orders, we kill tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, got hundreds of G.I.s killed, radicalized the middle east even more, and spent hundreds of billions of dollars. And Bush admits he doesn't care about getting Bin Laden, the most wanted man in the world. This is his kind of leadership? Careless? Now our own commanders are admitting defeat in Iraq while attacks increase and insurgents reconquer more and more of the country. More?  The burning of CIA agents.  Isreali spies in the office that planned our Iraq invasion. Iranian spies sitting with the First Lady and getting tens of millions of our tax dollars. Taiwan spies paying off Bush appointee Carl Ford, the assistant secretary of defense for intelligence and research, and James Kelly, appointed by Bush to assistant secretary of state for East Asia.  Bush politcal appointees in the Pentagon and the State Department are foreign spies. Just who is advising the President?.
- Repeated economic failure. Debt. Unprecidented job loss. An increase in the tax burden for the middle class. Under funded programs -- even Homeland Security and the Armed Forces are squeezed. And no new plan to fix the mess Bush created -- just "magic tax cuts" for the rich.
- A culture of Administration dishonesty and fearmongering. Calling dissentors traitors and un-patriotic. Covering up failures like Abu Garib and holding NO ONE ACCOUNTABLE. Using lying titles like "Clear Skies" to hide the raping of our environment. Creating the issue of gay marriage and using it to terrify people, as if the gays were some villianous group that was bent on killing your family.  Trying to put Hate into the Constitution -- a document founded to FREE us from tryanny.


It goes on.  The list of failures is insurmontable. The lack of accountablity, stagering.  The bigotry, fearmongering, hatefullness of the President is terrifying.  The lack of moral strength and leadership courage is embarassing.  The lies are more and more transparent (a vote for Kerry is a vote for the terrorists? come on).

And the final capper: why won't Bush compare himself to the great American President FDR? He's "Churchillian". No disrespect to the Brits, but who the fuck is Churchill compared to FDR? And remember what happened to Churchill as the war ended? He was tossed out.  Kerry's our new FDR. Strong, responsible, moral.

dunno why i bother attempting to put thoughts into words on these kinda topics when Sixhits manages to post them so eloquently and precisely with such accuracy :D

(http://prodtn.cafepress.com/9/12677369_F_tn.jpg)

My girlfriend says, her bush would make a better President.

Know what? My dick would make a better Vice President, too.

Any meaningful response, Harvey?

Except for the fact that he was lying through his teeth about most of it.  He testified about war atrocities from people who were never even IN Vietnam!  How can you call that freedom of speech???  The man went, while still in military service, to the North Vietnamese Communists in Paris repeatedly.....a violation of the UCMJ, and a crime punishible by DEATH.  Know why?  Cause it's called TREASON.  Chew on that for a while.  And if Kerry did participate in some of the war crimes he claims to have participated in, why the FUCK isn't anyone calling him in front of a war crimes tribunal???[/size]

GhostSniper...do you deny that Americans committed war crimes in Vietnam and that they were ordered by the higher ups? I assume you do deny it since you claim Kerry lied. Unfortunately, it is completely fact that those things happened.

And Kerry never did anything close to treason, it is just further McCarthyite behavior on the part of the Republicans to limit dissent.

Here comes a wild theory.
If today, the war crimes committed in vietnam were to be brought before a judge, where would we want it to be?
I hope you're thinking "UN International Crimes Court".
According to http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/documents/convncn_limit.htm (http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/documents/convncn_limit.htm) , there is no statute of limitations on war crimes, making it possible for any publicity-hungry lawyer to create a lot of noise.
A good reason to not ratify the treaty?

Anyway, if that isn't paranoid enough for you, try on the idea of Bush himself being (secretly) guilty of war crimes  :-X

Anyway,
imo You're screwed, stupid, and ******** if you re-elect Bush

Sigh. Here's some facts

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE
 (http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE)

Article after article after article showing the war crimes of just one unit. Includes audio interviews and first person accounts. Telling me this shit never happened? Telling me that Kerry lied about war crimes?

And here's a direct quote from Kerry's testimony:
"There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 caliber machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages.''

Sounds like he was a soldier fighting in Veitnam, not incrimminating himself in war crimes.

Republicans have to smear Kerry's record because Kerry?s actual record, when compared to Bush?s or Cheney?s, torpedoes the myth that conservatives are somehow more patriotic and more likely to sacrifice for their country than liberals.

And this bull about Kerry being some sort of communist or having a red agenda... I think this is what you're logic is: Americans do not openly support proposals that amount to an American surrender to their enemies in time of war.

If Kerry was against the war then Kerry was supporting America "surrendering" to Communism.  I think history has shown the foolishness of that argument.  Admitting defeat in Veitnam led to a stronger America, not a weaker one. It made us question our actions and our leaders, and rightfully so. Kerry spearheaded the heroes of that time.  Remarkable, things have now come full circle.  War mongers from the past such as Cheney and Rumsfield -- Nixon administration political operatives -- are in power once again. It's gonna take the strength of conviction Kerry has shown in the past to boot these brutal thugs out of power once again.

Republicans would rather lie about the facts in order to avoid responsiblity than tell the truth and do the right thing. Well, in my America I want responsible, moral, strong leadership. Not Bush's reckless, immoral, and weak bullshit.

These topics really go nowhere because people are too fixed on what they believe is right. People spend way to much time trying to convince people to believe what they believe is right. Theres no changing GS to vote for democrat (tell me if im wrong ;)) and theres no changing Six to republican. This whole debate thing just starts flames when people like rebel come in and say stupid shit that gets people worked up.

The truth is both running mates have a sketchy past and both presidents are going to have their flaws. This country will never be "United" again if this type of Republican Vs. Democrat society remains. As the video that six     showed us, people are resorting to violence. and over what?

Stop the hate...

Kuza I agree with you in general, but this election is a little too important in my opinion for everyone to care too much about getting along.  If one person questions their assumptions after reading some of Sixhits' posts, then it's been worthwhile.

And where on Earth did you get the idea that there was anything sketchy about John Edwards?  A big problem with this campaign is that the GOP has very effectively misinformed large parts of the population, and inexplicably the Kerry-Edwards camp hasn't been able to convince people of the truth.

The John Edwards I know (as a North Carolininian who's known him in the community since before his start in politics) is very popular among both parties as a model citizen.  The guy's law practice was by no means exploitative - his most famous high-dollar case was in representing a little girl whose intestines were sucked out by a swimming pool pump the manufacturer knew was defective but didn't do anything about.  You may dislike his politics, but I have a hard time seeing how you can argue that the multimillion jury award he helped secure was unjustified.  (She survived and requires expensive medical care)

John Edwards' teenage son died in a car crash about 10 years ago, and since making his fortune, Edwards has contributed thousands of dollars to the high school Wade Edwards attended.

I could go on, but my point is this - if anyone wants to criticize the policies of either party (which I haven't seen too much of in national debate) they're more than welcome to their opinion.  But being fixed on a belief of what's "right" about a person's character is a slippery slope.  I don't know enough first-hand to contradict the various slanders floating around about both Bush and Kerry, but I can tell you from personal experience that when people attempt to smear John Edwards they are lying.

Stop to think for a minute that "trial lawyer" is not necessarily a bad thing.  Now, can someone tell me anything sketchy about Edwards (as opposed to duck hunter, Energy manipulator, and "undisclosed location" Mr. Cheney?)
 

I disagree with what kerry is trying to do. I don't like the situation with his records atleast Bush let his out. My dad and some other vets  from the war told me that you would have to be so stupid to get injured three times with in a period of four months so something was going on. He might as well cut his leg in the brush and said "oh thats a purple heart".

Its amazing isn't it. Bush's campain team were freaked out that they were up against a war vet who rather than faking his records actually served active duty unlike bush... so they spend all their time trying to discredit Kerry...

Why aren't u guys just a bit more worried about what is going on now like what bush has done or hasn't done over the last 4 years. I know bush and co would prefer you were more worried about Kerrys record but right now that dosn't matter jack shit its just trying to keep your attention away fromt he shocking record of Bush's last 4 years in power.

Hmmm, Bush's shocking last 4 years in power....

1.  During that time, I have gone from being out of work/between jobs where I made about $25,000 a year to being the Fleet Sales Manager of a major auto dealership in my state and making between $200,000 and $300,000 a year.

2.  I lived in an apartment when Bush came into office and now I live in a $500,000 house on the beach in Biloxi, MS.

3.  Before Bush came into office, my daughter would have had to go to the crappy schools in Biloxi, but due to Bush's new voucher system, my daughter can go to one of the top rated schools in my state, which is out of my district.

4.  If I had made $300,000 a year under Clinton I would have had to pay nearly double the tax rate I pay now under Bush's tax plan.

5.  With all that extra tax money I save, I am able to give more money to many charities, including the Juvenile Diabetes Foundation, the American Diabetes Association, the Freedom Alliance, the Air Force Association, the Aerospace Education Foundation, the Air Force Aid Society, and the Baptist Bible Fellowship (which my parents are missionaries out of).

6.  I own an AK47, an M4, and an H&K MP5, and thanks to the current administration (and Congress), I can now take them out and play with them and/or buy more of them or sell the ones I have.

7.  Even though the disaster of Sept 11 happened during Bush's watch, a thing called the FIRST bombing of the World Trade Center happened under Clinton's watch....in which he did nothing about it.  Ruby Ridge, the Columbine Shooting, the Branch Dividians, and the USS Cole bombing all happened during Clinton's Presidency....and he did nothing about it.  My home city, Oklahoma City, was bombed by a domestic terrorist in 1995.....and Clinton did nothing about it.  I'm just glad we finally have a President that has the BALLS to do something about this nation's DEFENSE!

So, I guess I kinda like Bush and his "shocking" last 4 years.

So sue me.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.[/size]

P.S.  8.  I had one of the original iMac G3's when Bush came into power, and now I own a Desktop G5 (and will have the cash to trade up to the 3.0GHz G5 the very day Apple releases it).[/size]

LMAO...are you actually trying to have this be a valid argument? Speaking of which, Bush has passed no school voucher programs.

As for me...my dad lost a 200,000/year job in 2002 and has been unable to find anything since. While I saved 50% on my taxes (a total of less than $100 over Bush's Administration) thanks to his tax cuts, my tuition costs skyrocketed due to related state funding reactions to Bush's cuts...costing me a few thousand. I can offer the anecdotal evidence as well. However, the non anecdotal is things like a net loss of jobs (even worse compared to the jobs needed to deal with population growth,) the rise in poverty, the rise in health care costs and other living costs. Then there is the turn from huge surplus to huge deficit.

1.) Perhaps you could explain the Bush administration's role in your career change?

2.) I lived in a 1.2 million dollar house when Bush came into office, I'll live in the same house when Kerry is elected this november. Again, perhaps you could explain what your house has to do with tue Bush Administration.

3.) Before Bush came to office, our high school had 1,300 students, 100 more than it was designed for. Our school now has 1,900 students, and, if Alaska complies with NCLB, will be gaining several hundred more soon, from rural communities who can't comply with NCLB. On top of that, classes have gone from being 15-20 kids to being 30-60, due to the loss of many excellent teachers who weren't "qualified" to do the jobs they'd been doing for 10 years.

4.) And the loss of millions of jobs are a minor consequence, and very acceptable so that you can pay less in taxes, right?

5.) And you're able to give money away to people on GR. However, I respect the fact that you choose to give money to charities.

6.) Bush supports the Assault Weapons Ban. However, now there is a greater potential that cops will find themselves looking down the barrel of an AR15 ( An idea that I quite like, as someone who maintains the attitude that the only good cop is a dead cop, but that's beside the point ).

7.) Right, America was attacked under the Clinton administration, and he just stood there, where as Bush has gone right out, made thousands more enemies, pissed off the UN and our allies, and gotten over 1,000 Americans killed.

PS. Under the Clinton Administration, I had a Dual 500 G4, which was top of the line at that time. Under the Bush administration, I've got a 1GHZ Powerbook G4, which is less than half as fast as the top of the line mac.

I wasn't speaking for everyone, only myself.  Those are the reasons I am supporting Bush....because I PERSONALLY am better off than I was 4 years ago.  If you aren't, then you can vote for whoever the hell you want.

Ah, the beauty of FREEDOM.

w00t![/size]

What is Kerry trying to do? What are you implying? What are you presuming? Do you really think Kerry is going to do bad things to this country after what we've seen Bush do? It's like Bush is standing up in front of the country, failure after failure surrounding him, and he has the gall to say, "Who ya gonna believe? Me, or your lyn' eyes?"

At least Bush... keeps finding new records to release. Huh? We've seen slander and lies about Kerry who's records is a matter of public record. As for Bush, maybe if he stopped lying about having released his records, and simply did release them all, you could question Kerry. At least we know where Kerry stands; we can see the medals on his chest. For Bush, there are real questions about his conduct during the time he serviced. If he would only act like a man and stop hiding things from America about his past then there would be no more doubt about why he ditched service, disobeyed orders, and failed to show up for duty. He could put all the rumors to rest if he just came clean and explained what he was doing and why he did it.

Your dad doesn't know what he's talking about. In war you never know when you're gonna get it, and brave men like Kerry, who risked themselves over and over again for their men, are more likely to get wounded because they take the risks real leaders are supposed to take. You slander every solider who was ever wounded or killed for this country when you say he coulda got a purple heart for cutting himself with a brush. Shame on you. Finally, the US Navy yesterday announced that there were no errors in the way Kerry recieved his awards and that all were earned. Case closed, stop lying, Republicans.

Facts. Truth. Simple if you bother looking for them.


You do not represent everyone. You are in fact, special. Rejoyce, rich man.

Schools? Again, yer rich, and I think you can afford better schools than the normal American. If you had been making as much under Clinton you could have afforded to send your girl to the best schools then, too. Ask a poor or middle class person how great the voucher system is. What national voucher system? Ask them how well funded No Child Left Behind was and what is done to their schools? Bush has had four years and he offered one policy to better the education of America's children. It was a weak, illconsidered policy, underfunded.

A $500,000 home? How many Americans make the money to afford a home like that? How many fewer Americans make no money now, having lost their job, because of Bush's failed economic policies?

You SHOULD be paying an arm and a leg in taxes. You know why? Because taxes are an investment in America and only a selfish, greedy person who didn't care about his fellow American's would look down on investing in their country. That's the Republicans point of view: they are too greedy and selfish to invest in America for the benefit of all Americans. Aren't we in this all together?

You telling me you spend your massive rich person's tax cut on charity? Please, if you need a tax cut in order to give then you aren't really interested in charity, you're interested in making yourself feel better.

You should not be able to own assualt weapons. One of the great shames of Bush's legacy is that he's let the most successful anti-violence law lapse. He claims he's for renewing it. Why hasn't he forced his Republican controled Congress to put the bill in front of him? Because he's a liar and a weak leader. He says he wants to renew it? Fucking renew it then. Don't stand around like a pussy, preening like a littlel bitch.

You persist in blaming Clinton for terrorism. This is slander.  Clinton did more than any President to combat terrorism. As Clinton left office Bush was informed that terrorism and Osama Bin Laden would be the number one threats to the United States. Bush went on vacation. Clinton, everyone forgets, foiled the 2000 melimium attacks against the soil of the United States. He foiled an Al Quida plot to blow up a dozen 747s over the Pacific. He fought a successful, covert war and kept America strong and respected while doing so. This while the Republicans tried to weaken the country while at war with impeachment for adulty? Where were the Republican priorities? Why the fuck did they care so much extra martial sex, but didn't care about terrorism? Why don't they care about Bush lying to us about conquering Iraq? About losing the war? About Bush being the most expensive President ever, as he cuts taxes and spends and spends and spends? The reason they don't say anything now is that they DON'T CARE ABOUT AMERICA, THEY CARE ABOUT POWER.

Frankly, Clinton waged a better war on terrorism that Bush has -- cause at least Clinton CAUGHT terrorists and CONVICTED THEM.

Bush hasn't got Bin Laden. He hasn't got the anthrax killer. He refuses to acknowledge we are losing the war on terrorism, since terrorist attacks have increased world wide under his watch, and Iraq, once the only secular nation in the middle east is now set to decend into civil war and become the next Iran. There goes 200 billion bucks, thousands of American lives, for nothing. Iran has nukes. Korea has nukes. And our Amry is bleed white on the sands and cities of Iraq.

Freedom is loosing under Bush's leadership and Bush doesn't even acknowledge it. What victories? Show me victories! Show me freedom on the march! Show me liberation, not oppucation! Show me why my county is morally great, not a brutal selfish bully! Show me why to believe, Bush!

And treat my soldiers as heroes, especially the wounded ones, instead of hiding them away while you stop-loss them to death. Stop forgetting our heroes, Mr. President. Throw them parades. Make them feel like the heroes they are. And STOP using them for political gain.

We deserves a President who leads, instead of pussies out. We deserve strong and moral leader in the form of John Kerry, instead of Republican weakness and lies.

And remember.  You're rich, Ghost.  You're special. You're part of the 5% who can get what they want and have what they need. I commend your success. But the rest of us are normal human beings with normal jobs and normal lies. We don't get tax cuts that help us. We can barely afford medical insurance. We care about facts, not promises. We want our soldiers to be treated like heroes, not piriahs used for political gain. We want our nation respected again, not feared. And we want our leaders to stop terrorizing us and start killing the terrorists. It's simple, really. Normal Americans don't live in an ivory tower surrounded by perfection. Most of use live in the real world.

GhostSniper, that doesn't change that you lied about Bush getting your kid a voucher. As I said, Bush has had no hand in any type of school voucher program as President. He didn't even have a voucher program when he was Governor of Texas. So giving credit to Bush for that is false praise.

P.S. Before you criticize Clinton on how he dealt with terrorism, shouldn't you acknowledge that Bush responded by sitting dazed listening to My Pet Goat? If you want to compare Clinton and Bush on foreign policy, compare by results, not methods. The rate of terrorism is higher under Bush than Clinton. The US was fairly well regarded internationally under Clinton, it is nearly universally reviled under Bush. You can support Bush for whatever reasons (real or fake) you want, but most of your reasons seem to be based on faulty premises.

Congrats.. and what exactly did bush do to make that happen i wonder? probably something around the mark of f* all.


... And again, what did that have to do with bush? nothing... u got a new job, so you have more money, so you can afford a bigger house.


Yep your a rich american now! And becasue your rich you deserve better for your self and your family. You have money so your children should get a better start in life than others! You should be able to pick and choose which school you get becasue your rich! wow what a great idea, you are obviously so much better than people who don't have much money and so you should be treated much better.


Heres where we disagree. The more money you earn the more tax you should pay - tax should be linked to earning. Clinton wanted to keep it balenced - like six said, tax's are the investment in your country. Sorry i thought u loved your country and all that bullshit? you love it but you dont want to help it?


And the money in tax's wouldn't be put to good use? No thats right, it would be used for stupid things like inproving education for those kids who's parents arn't as rich as you, or for helping give medical treatment for those who cannot afford it.
Ok our Health system is not great, but jesus we don't decide to treat people over here depending on whether they have money or not. as a Citizen of the UK i know that if somthing happens to me i will get help - by paying my tax's and my parents paying theirs - we are ensuring that everyone in this country recieves that.

Good to hear you give to diabetes charities - however if the goverment had more money and a proper president im sure they wouldn't have to depend on charity. and im sorry but half of those listed in my eyes do not even begin to qualify as charitys.


 You do not need a gun. Guns are not for playing with. As a ex soldier i would have thought u knew that. they serve one purpose and that is to kill. do have no right to do that. There is a difference from owning a pistol and using it at a shooting range, and owning a AK47.


Domestic terrorists.... yeah there are some fucking crazy nutters in your country wondering around with a bible in one hand and a AK47 in the other. But instead of looking inwards at the problems your country has bush needs a nice war to keep your minds busy... the "war on terrorism" is perfect - it keeps you all pre-occupied and not thinking about the real key issues that need addressing in your country.


Rich, Ignorant, fanatically religious  and Selfish... what a dangerous mix.

How did I lie?  My daughter hasn't even started 1st Grade yet....I'm talking about when she starts in the public school system.  And yes, I do expect vouchers to be passed by then.

Don't ever call me a lier.  I have more integrity in my pinkie than you will ever fathom.[/size]

Work on your wording, this implies the voucher system is passed already. As for your integrity...well, don't expect that to mean anything if you make poor arguments.

GS, of course you're free to vote for whomever you want.  That's the whole point of an election.  But your overall reason for supporting Bush - because you are better off - fails to account for the millions of other people who are worse off.  Are you really so selfish that you support Bush at the country's expense?

More to the point, an ethics question for you -

Would you knowingly vote for the worse candidate for the nation if it meant you would have material gain?  How much does it take for your vote to be bought?

Ah, but you are forgetting something....I think Bush is the best candidate for President for this Country.[/size]

Yes, you've made that very clear.  However, you stated as your overriding reason why, that you yourself are better off.  I ask how you can live by that opinion when so many others are not.

Again, hypothetically - would you vote for a worse candidate if the money were right?  How much does it take?

If we use the previous logic applied to what in GS's eyes makes the better candidate then there cannot be a a situation when he votes for a worse candidate if the money is right - surely which ever candidate is going to make him richer is the best candidate.


Thats quite a statment. almost hanging up as a example of ... well no better not say it.

I think this sums it up quite nicely:

http://www.killsometime.com/Video/video.asp?video=President-Bush-Debt (http://www.killsometime.com/Video/video.asp?video=President-Bush-Debt)

attn: windows media player needed.

? Better than whom? - Kerry hasn't been president.
 
? Safer in what way?


... and like the vid says.  what about Bush's  $1 Trillion deficit?

? Just becasue Clinton didn't go invade a country dosn't mean he didn't do anything does it?
? Deficit.. 1 trillion dollars of deficit (you can't blame it all on the wwt)- surely you would do somthing to try and minimalise the deficit etc rather than increase your spending.

<offtopic>
w00t! Looks like GS is back in full posting form. Please keep it up, GS. I enjoy reading your views on stuff and how other people react to that. I'm too uneducated about politics to be able to give a valid point. If I was, I'd be right up here with you helping :D
</offtopic>

"He didn't do anything about it.? You forget, I was a U.S. Army Ranger during that time, and I'm telling you, HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT."

GS... if Mr Bush is re-elected, you can be assured your "Ranger" skills will come in handy when your recalled back to active duty in Iraq.

Your family is very lucky then, unlike these people:

http://www.wtkr.com/Global/story.asp?S=2029712&nav=5UuJOi4B

they are calling people up based on lame technicalities. sounds pretty desperate to me.

I for one would never question your dedication. Normally Macuber never discusses politics/religion. But I would like you to think on something veteran to veteran. I was drafted back in '69. And yes Macuber went to you know where. We were spoon-fed about the "Domino Effect". That was the mind-thought of our politicans.. If Viet Nam fell..so would all of South East Asia. Well guess what... Nike makes shoes there.. as well as some other American Businesses. So much for that idea.
Take a look at the history of Iraq. They change friggin' governments faster than we change skivvies. Shites..Sunni's.. they have a real grudge going on. Not like Joe Shite's dog took a crap on Gary Sunni's yard and it's a neighbor's quarrel. These people have been killing each other for hundreds of years. Now you have the Kurd's up north. They've been expelled from various surrounding countries. They want a piece of land to call their own (One of the biggest oil producing regions). Turk's don't like that idea.
So the bottom line here GS is this. Would I volunteer to be air-drop in that piece of crap? Would I like our brightess/young talent wasted there? HELL NO!!
Reason is..read Iraq's history!! As soon as we leave that shit-hole.. they're going to settle scores!! Your family needs you here.. your fellow Americans  needs you here! We need our brave warriors back here!
Sorry moderators... This was a little unlike Macuber

that's a cheap shot, and pseudo-moralistic BS. would it be wrong of him if he did?

did any of you guys watch Seinfeld. If yes, i bet it reminds you of something  ;)

why is macuber talking in the third person?

     Mr. Lothario assumes it was because Macuber is trying to distinguish between himself and his online persona.

Your assumption is correct Mr Lothario.

Yes, that's what I was implying.  He didn't answer my question in any case, which was how he could defend his statement that his primary motivation for supporting Bush was being personally better off.  Since millions of other people are not, I do think, from a moral, ethical, and logical standpoint, that his position is wrong.  I was just calling out the self-centeredness inherent in his statement - it doesn't take a moralist to see that.


                                                                                 

Or as Spock would say, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one."

Basic utilitarianism.

GhostSniper, the President submits a budget to the Congress, they can choose or not choose to pass it and they can choose to add take things off. The President also submitted the bills for the tax cuts that largely got us in this shit...again, yes Congress had to pass it but you cannot remove the blame from Bush. His party controls Congress, if he had asked for a more fiscally sound policy, Congress would have supported him. You also forget that Dick Cheney is President of the Senate.

No offense though GS, but you make Kerry look like he is wants to hide the fact he served in the military with how much you bring it up. I mean, good for you, and I respect it, but don't expect it to win you any points in debate.

And you show that you love assumptions.

I know that the President of the Senate in terms of voting capacity only breaks votes (must have been extra hard for Al Gore to announce Bush as president since Gore was the rightful winner.) However, the President at the Senate does help steer what is going on in the Senate. They are the equivilent of the speaker of the house (though usually they have a President pro tem standing in) and can try to bring the President's agendum to the table.

My point is, the executive and legislative branches are not as seperated as you claimed, and Bush actually has a lot to do with what they do and can be shouldered with some if not most of the blame for a lot of problems.

Yeah, very very hard. Imagine having to say "Well you guys voted for me  but Bush has bought the election it so he's your president now, sorry"

... that sucks

GS, we are both very involved in politics. The president can never control the senate directly, no he has his whips to do that for him. For instance the house bows down to Tom Delay. There are republican senators and congressmen who make sure the President's policies come to light. Politicans will always be making deals behind the tables. First rule in government: If it is not prohibited than it is permited. I am sure you knew all this but there you go.

First of all, he didn't state that as his primary motivation. Certaintly as incentive, but his primary motivation, as i recall, is he thinks he is the best candidate. For various reasons.

And the stand you are taking on this is rooted in absolute moralism- the idea that right and wrong do exist. So, why is it wrong to put your best interests ahead of those of others? Are we in debt of one another?

You also say from a logical standpoint, it is wrong. I don't really understand, however, how it would be logical to vote for a candidate that would put you at a loss.

Ethically speaking, sure, from a deontological perspective you could argue GS is wrong. But financial gain is utilitarianism at it's finest, and hardly an applicable topic of contention if you're talking about ethics. You would also be implying absolute morals, once again, if you were to say he is ethically wrong... and I doubt anyone is in the position to tell another citizen what his civic responsibilities are and aren't.

On a closing note, I'd like to mention that you don't have to agree with GS's statements to think that it's his business how he will vote, including his reasons. You simply have to believe that morals are relative- nobody is inherently "right" or "wrong", especially when they are just doing what would be best for them or acting on their own beliefs. You can take personal and subjective standpoints, however, and I fully support the notion of an "opinion". I will vote for Kerry, but I don't think Bush voters are wrong. Perhaps misinformed, disillusioned, scared, but not wrong. They have their rights and ideas, and you have yours.

That should be respected, and I wish we would stop trying to impose our standards upon our peers. That's exactly what's getting the US in trouble with the world and its neighbors as we speak.

Cookie, it sounds like we agree on more than it seems - when I said "wrong" I meant that I disagreed with it; earlier I had stated that I respected his right to an opinion, so by calling it wrong I did not intend to imply that its existence was invalid.

In the post I originally quoted, his statement implied that his own personal well-being improvement was his main reason.  Take a look at the quote - he cited it as a trump card, so to speak.

I would say, logically, that being financially better off if the majority of the nation/world is suffering is not actually being better off as a human being.  That's somewhat normative and caught up in ethics as well, but there is a logical element that argues that suffering all around you diminishes your own happiness.  So yes there is a logical standpoint - it's a weaker argument than the ethical, but it's there.  And while you do stress the important point that ethical positions can never be right or wrong, there are some that are so indefensible that consensus dictates that they are as close to falsity as possible.  I contend that GS's views, which he still hasn't supported, are so overwhelming self-absorbed (and misguidedly so) that they near this end of the moral spectrum.

And incidentally, while I agree with you in general on the folly of imposing ideas on others, I think there are times, again by overriding consensus, when those views should be forced.  For a current example - I think absolutely that any nation, or all nations, would be justified in imposing their abhorrence of genocide on Sudan by whatever means necessary to stop the violence.  Of course we're politically more likely to let it be another Rwanda, but that's for another debate.