*DAMN R6 Forum

One of the things that seperates the mac gaming community from the various PC communities is the friendship and respect that players hold for one another; not just friends within your clan, or even within a circle of clans, but friends all throughout the community.

When A2 joined TWL, I found some of the things we had to go through absolutely ridiculous. Pre CB screen shot sessions, all sorts of anti cheat things, an anti cheat mod for the game, which wasn't avalible for mac. Can't people not cheat just out of respect for their fellow gamers? Well, I guess that's a custom you can only find on GameRanger. Well that custom, in many forms, seems to be quickly disapearing.

Rogue Spear was perhaps the easiest game ever to glitch at. You could stick your gun through a wall, blast someone, and theoretically, unless they snapped a screen shot in the half a second they could see your gun, they'd have no proof that you glitched.

Ghost Recon, like Rogue Spear, had many glitches, however, aside from a few rotten apples, very few people took advantage of them. However, this small group of people eventually forced the Battle League to require various methods of cheat protection. From here, things took a turn for the worse.

The fact that there are ways of spotting glitches caused people to explore them more. Glitches became a weapon, a game within a game, even during CBs. Because of the large amount of glitching, the penalty for it was very small, thus people believe that if they do if effectivly, and only get caught one in five times, they'll be in good shape, where as if people knew that if they were caught glitching, they'd get banned for 12 months, they'd be less likely to test their luck. In my opinion, not having a more severe penalty for glitchers was one of the biggest mistakes that we've ever made.

My personal opinion is that what was once an insignificent glitch in a crator at Battlefield, has turned this community into the complete mess that it is today.

Cheat tests were the first thing to tear the community apart. Rather than having to respect your fellow gamers, and have a community based around respect, we had a community based around replays and cheat tests.

From that point on things got worse and worse. As the community gets larger and larger, people worry less about making enemies. 2 or 3 years ago, having 20 people mad at you may have meant having 1/5th of the community mad at you, where as now, it means 1/100th of the community.

Ok, now that we're done with my history assessment, on to what are, in my opinion, the major problems, and what we can begin to do to correct them.

1.) Lack of respect between players and clans.

2.) Finals for the Raven Shield ladder.

3.) The admins section being one big mess, whose sole purpose seems to be to get absolutely nothing done.

4.) Lack of respect for the *DAMN Battle League.

( Not in any specific order ).

1.) It's impossible for us to have the kind of ladder that we want without players and clans respecting one another. Yeah, we could make the battle league like TWL, where it's all about preventing clans from cheating ( or pulling cheap moves ), and where a clans only goal is to win. But I don't believe that's what we want. We want a league where we can pop onto GameRanger, find an oponent, and have a quick, fun CB, where most of the time is spent playing, not running cheat tests.

2.) In my opinion, finals are a stupid idea. They've worked out great on the Ghost Recon ladder, thanks to the dedication of many Ghost Recon players. However, after 2 seasons of Raven Shield, we're yet to have a round of finals that has gone through without 1 or more clans being knocked out by forfeit, and without major problems. Let's scrap the finals on the RvS ladder, things can still be great fun without them, in fact, in many ways, more fun. More people involved, less problems, more games. The ladder's a mess anyway, why add one more problem?

3.) For starters, I'd like to thank BFG for his excellent work. I don't think it's any coincidence that things have started to fall apart while he's gone. There are many problems in the admins section. The first is that clans, MP and c|, for starters, have decided that they're "entitled" to admin posistions. ( Nothing against c|, MP, Alaric or King of Pop, great guys coming from two very respectable clans ). People are picked for admin jobs because Mauti ( or BFG, now ) believe that they have the skills to handle the job, and that they're ready to do the work. You're giving up your job as an admin? Fine. Tell it to BFG, let him pick a replacement.

Secondly, Civic. I have nothing against Civic personally, but I think he's a horrible moderator. He will never accept that there are problems in the battle league. He blately ignores the admin guidelines, and votes in issues without becoming informed on them.

4.) This is a huge problem in my opinion. In the past, whenever there has been trouble, people have always defended the battle league, and worked together to help work out the problems. Lately I've been seeing members of this community, BTs Eight, and many others, come here talking about some new battle league they intend to start ( or so I gather ). You want to leave *DAMN? Start your own league? Go right ahead, but don't talk about it in the Battle League section of the *DAMN forums, that doesn't help anyone.

It's the job of every member of this community to help fix problems 1 and 4, and the job of the admins to fix problems 2 and 3.

Nothing will ever get done if we keep dodging around the problem. You got a problem with someone specifically? Don't hint it. Come out, say their name, and tell us your problem. I did it. I'll undoubtably catch a lot of shit for it, but if things are to happen, it has to be done. Don't just tell us your problem though, tell us what we can do about it.

Don't post a problem unless you've got some idea as to how to solve it. Let's not get carried away. Let's start rebuilding our community.


Added:

After talking with Eight and Harvey, from what I understand, MGL isn't so much of an attempt to "replace' the *DAMN Battle League, more an alternetive type of gaming experience, with various different ladders more like the BTL was. However, that said, I still think it'd be better if you left comments about it out of the BL section.

How long have we been talking about problems?

I've said this before, i like Mauti & Elandrion... thing is... they have no time for this...

Things started to make a change for the better after the DBL was in direct competition with another ladder, the BTL... after we decided that the tests have been done we shut down the doors soon after the DBL aquired alot of the BTL features....

Then too much shit kept happening, and a lot of people are now pissed... New rules coming? For me it's more like "too little, too late"

Let me pick at your 1-4 problems

1: No matter what there is always going to be a lack of respect. You got some good competition and shit talkin sometimes is apart of the game. Other times its a bunch of noobs trash talkin for no reason.... No matter what you put 150 peoople into a rooom and let them see each other day in and day out... names become friends, and of course youll make enemies.
I remember we were having a good cb witht his clan one day, and because both clans saw the rules diffrent, both clans then started to mouth off... shit happened when each side stands there ground. Shit talkin will always be around competition

2: Finals for RvS Ladder.... don't take it out. Last season we were off to a good start till 1 thing fuckt it all up.... this season July 4th.... Maybe better planning?

3: I don't know how to fix that problem... it's fuckt beyond belief... and for the record before BFG left shit was falling apart... actually while you was still an admin shit was falling apart.

4: Lack for the respect of the DBL... I wont touch that one... I thought i was the only one hence my ban... oh an also Stripes but thats a diffrent story cheating is disrespect to not only any LEAGUE but to the players on that LEAGUE itself....


Does it take the MGL to make the DBL finally move forward or finally put it out of its misery...

1.) Why does there have to be? Why didn't there used to be? You haven't seen shit talking until you've seen a 1v1 between Rebel and I. ( Btw, what was it, Reb? Something like "You're just another noob standing in the way of victory"? And then "Go to GR, tell everyone I'm never playing RS again" after I beat you? :D

Point is, I'm not talking about shit talking. That's part of the game, that's part of what makes it competitive. You'll notice that neither Rebel nor I camped or glitched in that 1v1. Why? Couple reasons, the first being that at that time, glitching in a 1v1/CB was about the worst thing you could possibly do. But what stopped me from doing one that he wouldn't even notice? Respect. I wanted to know, in my mind, that I'd beaten him. I didn't want to just see it on the ladder.

2.) Were you here before the finals system came into place? ( can't remember what season we started using it. ) You get the top 2 clans on GR in desperate searches for CBs, and then, often, to conclude the season, a match between them that decides things. Makes for an insane day of competition.

One of the reasons we went inactive this season is because we didn't want to have to deal with the finals. It's no fun to have times that you have to be on to CB. I'd like to see what the c| and BoC members think of the finals, since c|, MP5 and BoC are pretty safe bets to be there.

3.) That's ok. You don't have to fix the problem. That's BFG's problem, and I'm sure he'll find a way to clean things up once he gets back.

4.) Stripes and I get on fine, but I agree with you. He's been a discrace to the Battle League, his multiple attempts to cheat ( in various ways ) show complete disrespect for the BL.

If we don't have any confidence in our admins, and *DAMN as a whole then any attempt to get the battle league going will be dead before it begins.

I don't think the system changed, the players changed.... without a doubt thats the problem. (go ahead, flame me bitches  ;) )

:Flames Ult for stating the obvious:

With the new players came a new system...

A NEW NEED... which is, in my eyes wrong with the BL...
Things move to slow to keep up with the games...

I mean we got games out now and DBL is only supporting 3?

Hrm,

Well, in rebuttle, without new players you essentially die.  I don't see how and why most of the "vets" are anti new players.  Without new players you have no life blood to keep you going.  In essence you are saying you should of just locked your community during it's "golden age" and danced around in your utopia thereafter.  But we both know people leave and unless more people come, you would be dancing by yourselves by now.

If you would ignore your ideal of when the DBL was great than you would realize that the main problem is dealing with the influx of players and how it affects the league. Unless the league has the ability to adapt and compensate, you would run into problems.  And this is where we stand.  this league is not doing that.

Typhy and 8 both have good points eventhough they don't agree on them.  But now we are faced with another battle within the admin section that obviously anyone outside of it has no clue what is going on.  So in short, the secrecy is just making you look weaker.  I can't say I know how to fix the DBL, but then you know we are off to do our own thing in an attempt to make something better.  I agree with typhy in using this platform for free advertising (notice I didn't use the name).  I thank the DBL for what it has done and given to us, I am just not sure it can provide it any longer without looking at itself from the top up.  And it seems a lot of people are asking this as you look through the many threads and flames.

Sorry both aren't admins. Typhy isn't an admin since the end of season VII and eight has handed over his job to LeeHarvey after season 6 or even 5.

But it is a good observation that they have all their bash and trash talking here at the *DAMN BL Forum. Maybe to keep the guys away from the BL who actually enjoy the BL, because I didn't read many if any complaints here from guys who actuallly played in the BL. All complaints are coming from guys who hardly or even didn't play at all this season. They just jump on Alaric's flame bandwagon.

Typhy at least tries to bring in some good points, although some of his critics are outdated since over 2 months. Few critic points are coming from his time as admin here but most of them have already been fixed.

Bye,

Mauti

Hey mauti...

You really have no clue whats going on do you?
Uhh? We didn't play last season, but when was the last time you dealt with the BS? Season 4?

There is a reason why there is a flaming bandwagon dude...  Seriously man? Hows that G5 coming along that everyone donated to so you can get back into the gaming? How about just buying a g4 to play at least some of the games and deal with the BS....

Will rules be bent for you? Since you run the league? Will the admins sway their votes in your favor?

We dont even know do we.... Come back and GET a clue as to how your league is running itself into the ground...

Hmm...

Now why didn't we think of that back then? What an excellent idea.




This is a huge point in my opinion. However, not only does the admin-only section make them LOOK weaker, it is actually making the entire league weaker.

It is my personal opinion that if people claim that the admins themselves are not capable (for whatever reason) to fix the problems, I think that all problems should be kept open to discussion with the public.

I think that the Black Ops section is just a way to make people feel higher than others, as it serves no useful purpose. It is only serving to hinder the public's ability to assist in solving the league's problems.

Mauti, by moving Alaric's orginal thread to the Black Ops section, what was that accomplishing? Perhaps instead of claiming that Alaric was only flaming, swearing, bashing, etc., then locking the thread and moving it to the admin-only section, you should have pointed this out, and then given Alaric the opportunity to rephrase or restate his problems, IN VIEW OF THE PUBLIC.






Overall, my point is this:

If there are problems that the admins cannot themselves solve, even though we expect them to, why aren't these problems open to discussion by the entire league?

Down with the Black Ops section.

The fact is we can't change the players, we just need to have responsible leaders who can recruit with some idea of who they are recruiting and not picking lemons from the apples.

There is no solution. At least not a cookie cutter simple one.

We need to want it to work.  

If we get upset over rulings, if we're constantly knitpicking, if we loose our faith in the competence of the admins, well, where are we?

wow, same ish, different year...  
Trust me, I was very much down for everything the *DAMN BL stood for, until I got a bad taste of it, with the flames, biased stereotyped views, etc.  Our clan was one of the more active and competitive clans around in our DBL days, until the DBL showed it's JR. High administrative attitude.  It was too bad none of the elder fellas, were able to ever fix anything.  Hell, they'd end up getting into it with the youngstas.  But that's a repetitive attitude behavior often played out, in us humans.  
   Eight and a couple of others, have pointed out some very good points about you Mauti.  Especially the involvement part.  I also agree you should be out there playing after you got everybody to feel sorry for you and donate you money for a G5 supposedly.  No pun intended.  The fact you never did, and the fact that you always went by what your personal close "buddies" told you, is why the DBL is where it's at.  
    Me and my clan are still waiting to see a better league rise up, and provide a better well contained environment.  Until then, we're happily CB'ing and playing for the fun and competition of it, in no league at the present moment.  And trust me, we're having fun, unlike what I see around here...
    Don't just look at all my points of view as negative ones upon this league, just a reminder there was others in the past, that did try and point these same things out,  and rationalize with you and other of these "admins" right and wrong.  From the people that try and cheat, to imature admins, to bad calls being made with nobody in their right mind taking proper action, to the manipulation of the whole league.  Yes, there was other of us that had a problem with this league, and were willing to try and help, but fell short after the JR High flaming and imatureness over ran this place.  And yeah, my character was stereotyped, and targeted, as I simply was the person involved most of the times killing those others in CB's.  But let the competitive edge that drives others to do things they shouldn't, be a lesson on what NOT to do in any future leagues.  

Even if it is too little too late...  
                                          See you when I see you  -|?K|*Rapid*

ps: what's up to all those that missed me ;)
pps: -MP5-SNiPE, why don't you put in your signature, you've lost EVERY CB you've ever had against me ;D

This next season will be interesting, MGL starts... Who will prevail?

This goes to all people that are complaining:
You don't really know what all the Admins, Mauti and Me are doing for this league. It is very hard to make democratic decisions on all the issues that pop up, which are just and objective. Trust me, this is not an easy task.

all of you also should have some faith in our good working admin team, that the internal problems will be solved as swiftly and thoroughly as the seasons issues were managed. there really is no need to bring discussions over minor differences in our points of views into the public. this would only complicate matters for you as for us.

Elan

Enough with the admin democracy bullshit, it is time to revert to an admin triumverate, or better yet, a dictatorship. It is painfully obvious that the problem with the league now is that everyone is involved and that everyone wants to have a say in it - that is only things that will benefit their clans while ignoring the good of the league. It is time that we put the foot down an do away with having an admin for every clan. Pure democracy doesn't work and that is why no such pure democracies exist in the world today.

Anywho, since I have no idea what Mac Gaming has spiraled into in its present form, I will try to stay out of the old vs new debate. As for PC's not having communities, you are dead wrong... just because it isn't like this one doesn't mean they don't exist.

Moderator Insert: Typhy and Rapid are both banned for 24hours for spamming this thread with a flamewar.

     Regarding the old vs. new debate, I tend to think that the end of the "golden age" is directly attributable to OS X. On the PC side, where there was no such OS disjunction, people still play RS. For us, OS X caused the death of RS. Had that not happened, had RS survived, many of the "old clans" and "old players" would still be around, playing RS (lord knows I would be). That community's focus on the game not victory-at-all-costs would have served as an example to the influx of GhR players who joined the DBL. As it was, the only example we could provide was "back in my day..." stories. Had RS survived, the transition from old to new would have been smoother than the violent upheaval that it was.

      But then, maybe I'm just an old-timer dreaming.

Your JUST you said elandrion?

We got banned because we waited all weekend long to play the finals because we thought extentions weren't allowed.. come sunday evening to find out i have to play during the week...

If your so JUST about things... maybe you should all follow the rules that are written..

I mean, if someone was caught cheating, do you then discuss what u should do about it? NO the person broke the rules and its a ban....

If you don't add in your cbs before the finals.. it won't get counted right BECAUSE ITS A WRITTEN RULE...

How's it look when you guys change written rules all the time in order to "suit" someone... I mean... if one team didnt show up for finals... what happeneds then? You move the next team up, at least thats what history has shown.... AND until that day history was the ruling factor in all admin decisions... now it's just constantly changing...

I mean look, Last season we get banned because we told the admins to go shove the extention since they werent the ones up till 3 am in the morning WANTING TO CB.
Right before finals started there was a huge debate on us "Making the deadline" then typhy and his clan dont show to play and all of a sudden that whole "Deadline" chat that people were against us for didnt exist...

You see why i tell you your league is becoming shit.. becuase shit like this KEEPS happening season after season.

ITS JUST NOT FAIR TO SOME CLANS THAT KEEP GETTING SHAFTED

that rule has been introduced right after the problem u're talking about... it didn't exist before.


nothing like what u're talking about happened in this running season VIII yet. several, introduced after last season, rules are preventing it.[/color]

Eight, i'm not really interested in discussing, or even trying to find explanations for events with you that happened quite a long time ago, and which are in my eyes very minor matters. I also want to point out, that I didn't say that I am just, but the BL admin team has to be just and objective. Sometimes, justice doesn't mean following the laws by the word, but doing the right thing. I don't know why you are always complaining on BT's ban for one season. A season is really a ridiculously short time, which could have been spent better than on nursing anger and hatred.

Most of BTs are Americans (not all, but most)....didn't you know that we invented nursing anger and hatred?  lol[/size]

Oh yeah.....sorry I tried to take claim on your invention.[/size]   ;)

/me feels the urge to step in and make a comment

/me thinks better of it, steps back and reads all the evidence, even evidence that is not available to the public any more

/me steps back foreword to the keyboard after making his decision.

god damn. i hate to say this, but alaric is right. this leag is tearing it's self apart at the seams, and you know what?  Buccaneer told me (and alaric) this was going to happen before he even announce his resignation as an admin.  

everybody has been trying to pussyfoot around and not step on toes until this point, but this league is like a broken bone that was never set straight. no amount of coddling is going to help it. the only ways to fix it are to rebreak or amputate. time to break some toes.

the problems i have seen in my numerous seasons watching silently from the GG mod position
these are ALL OF EQUAL SEVERITY

mauti being around almost never.
  i had to listen to Bucc bitch every night about how he tried to contact mauti for at least 3 full months, and i know from personal experience that unless a crisis is beyond the point of no return the odds of getting a response form mauti are so damn unlikely they might as well be 0 (note, mauti is here, crisis is also well past point of no return... hmmm...)

moderators voting along continental and clan lines instead of the good of the league
civic voted no on almost every single issue unless it was proposed by a european source. the now infamous bts mp5 decision was surprisingly predictable (only one mod voted against my prediction), and then the publicaly popular mp finals system got tabled to death by  euro mods who did nothing using the  'we need mauti's approval' tactic (which has been hauled out as a stop block for several seasons now when ever something unpopular to a minority of mods is proposed)

the chronic inactivity of mods
i'm not sure how bad this was last season because i had stopped caring enough to check, but in previous seasons, decisions were made by a grand total of 5 maybe 7 moderators.  how many did we have at 1 point? 14?

the unwillingness to take firm punitive action against moderators who are out of line.
if the mods step out of line the most they ever get is  slap on the wrist. there is no incentive for anyone to not vote for their buddied or in their own best intrests. the admin zone was like a old boys network and you looked out for your buddies... it's been that way even way back to the whole six nixson fiasco (which i would be more than willing to let rapid elaborate on.  the only difference is that now the league has become something to float along on on your power trip as opposed to a ship that needed to be guided through the waters as far as the admins are concerned.

the over proliferation of mods
this has become a problem since the BL no longer needed to be updated by hand.  back when it was a manual system, a small group of mods updated it regulary, and also made decisions for the league. with the occurrence of the automatic system, the number of moderators could have been drastically reduced.    why wasn't it?     the result was a bunch of people who became out of touch with the every days needs and desires of the battle league and felt the need to make things for themselves to do...  if we can decide things in the GG in under 10 posts most of the time, why the hell can't they do that in the bl forum? why the hell do you have to have a 50 post thread debating the semantics of one little sentance?  greater numbers of people leads to a drastic slowing of the administrative process... just look at congress and see what i mean.


lack of respect by the players  for players, the game, and the league

the anything to win attitude is killing the league with tactical CB's, camping, glitching and out right cheating. who the fuck cares how it got here, it needs to go. now.  even if this league dies, no form of organized mac gaming can survive with this attitude amongst it's participants


these are the things that i have seen in my long tenure here as a member of the damn community.  not all admins are guilty of all the points here, not all players are guilty of my last point. but by in large they are, and if you think for one second that you are exempted form considering changing your ways because i am not talking to you you are dead wrong. i should have said something about this a long time ago, but i didn't because i became apathetic and tired of trying to change all the dumbasses who paraded themselves daily through GR and the GG. now those same dumbasses are ruining the damn league, a league that i no longer consider my self a part of. not because i left or anything, but because the league has pushed me out, and i consider this partially my responsibility.  so i'll ask you now

what did YOU do to kill this league?


[/color]

Since brain said it all, I say this. I second that on brain.


P.S. Jesus I just saw GS and Rapid talk to each other, how disturbing.

This thread is funny to me. Not really for the content, more for the sake of irony. As a result of the widespead comments regarding the lessening fun level of our league, a complete overhaul is being developed. I can't promise anything, but by the second week of season 9 it is quite possible that you may all regret spending so much time in this thread. The "tactical cb" should be gone, and the number of cbs should increase dramatically. I've probably said too much already, but I couldn't resist giving you a chance to reevaluate your efforts at typing the same complaints again using different words for the coming weeks.

I don't think anything you change in Season IX is gonna matter to me.  Last I heard, the BattleTek Squad wasn't coming back for Season IX.[/size]

GS, shhh. If they maker it better, we'll just have to see who is best.

Wow, some of you guys get real "uppity" about video games.  I mean, it's nice to have a loving community wherever you are.  But is it possible that as each of us grow older we might actually change our views about things? Video games and the things that come with it perhaps?  Some of you guys just take this all a wee bit too seriously.  And by the way, I'll never get those 10 minutes back that I spent reading this thread.  Shame on me.

.::|N| Noto

...off to do something productive...

...and yet you took the time to reply, thus wasting more time.



I have to say, I do enjoy playing games like Halo and CoD more and more, simply because I can play for hours, anonymously. The only thing that defines me are my kills and my score count, unlike on GR.

If this whole thing is reaching the point of no return, why not back off for a season? Suspend the *DAMN battle league for a whole season. Let people play, really play the games, and be driven by the desire to play the games and have fun. Then restart the DBL, and hope that people have gained a little bit of perspective.

To be honest I have always been for the DAMN BL myself but I must admit these last two seasons have been quite shit when it comes to the admins adding their own things to the rules halfway thru the season.  Hopefully season 9 will be a better one because I for one cant stand this bullshit anymore.  It's obvious there is a problem here with the BL and the admins in many senses are not taking responsability for the issue.  And from what I have seen it dosen't seem that it is going to get better.  The main issue that I have is earlier I was told that there is a set of rules prohibiting admins from abusing their power.  No offense, but unless we are able to see these rules, who is going to point out when an admin goes beyond these scopes of their authority on these issues? Another admin?  I dont think so.  In any event the admin that catches them is most likely going to abuse that same rule to further their power ability.  The thing you guys can do for season 9 is to open the admin threads to the public again.  This only has furthered the mis-trust of the public on this sense and enforcing the fact that admins cant be trusted to do the work on the league that they are supposed to.  I am sorry DAMN but in this sense if everyone is not allowed to be objective on the issues then we might as well just hang this league up and do something else.  

You admins say that you have this all handled?  I am sorry but that is obviously far from the case because of the present issues that have been happening within the league.  I know it dosent help with mis-information from other people but the only people that actually know about that are the ones that can be involved in it, and since this is a league for the public then it should be given every consideration and thru the public and not biased admins.  Admins should at least be voted on by the public.  This way if an admin is chosen by the public, only the public will be to blame.  

See, a perfect example is what Aramarth said in his last statement about the league going to change.  Well, shouldnt that be something that is thought of by the people that experience the problems and not the ones that obviously failed to attempt to solve them?  In any event, every season there has been issues.  I am not denying that.  What I am troubled about is that the admins think that they can solve this by giving us less information on the happenings within the league.  We should be more informed on what is going on and not less informed in that sense.  We shouldnt have to wait until the first day of the league to find out these new rules, and go thru a whole season of wasting our time to find out if they work out or not.  Elandrion, I have nothing but respect for you, but can you honestly say that we should believe in these ideas when you guys dont even trust us enough to at least be able to debate the issues before the seasons start?  And the only way we can deal with these issues is to have them right in front of our faces.  Ya see, the admins were picked by the main clans of that season at that time.  Things have changed now and let's face it, what was once a good idea seems that it was only put in place to quell the populus and not for the good of the league.  If that was the case then a new admin would be repicked every season depending on who was the top 6 clans at that time.  It all seemed cut and dry at first, but the longer an admin stays into a position, the more likely he is going to become a biased admin.  You can pick your friends  to be admins, but that again, does not solve the issue since this league is for the public and not your friends alone.  So in that sense a new admin should be chosen every season to add new perspective to the admin frontline.  And if that clan is within the top 6 over and over then the admin should only be able to serve 2 seasons in a row.  Then a new admin should be chosen from the top clan.  This will keep admins more in check as well as making better decisions for the populus overall.  Plus the admins get burnt out as well.  This is an issue that needs to be addressed as well as letting all of us know these rules that admins have to follow.  Therefore eliminating any issues that may present itself in the future with admins abusing their power.  i just dont understand what the justification was of not letting us know that there was some guidelines set down for the admins to follow.  That does not make much sense to be honest.

:MoD:Saberian

Well said Sab.

I gonna post the admin guidelines here as a sticky soon.

About the rules and that you aren't able to view them before the season starts. One big problem is that I always set the date for the new season when things have been discussed. Now we have set dates for the season so we have a certain time period inbetween and can work early on the changes. E.g. for season IX all changes will be announced in early/mid august 2 - 3 weeks before the season starts.

Indeed the many rule updates during a season are annoying, and I really hope that we can avoid this in the coming season by having now enough time until the season starts.

Making the Admin Zone public: in some points you are right but for all banning discussions or other penalty discussions you are wrong. If people could see who voted for a ban or not would cause bad flaming.

About the admin structure: I'm already in the process of restructuring the tasks of the admins. However one reason why it is easier to have admins for rule discussions is that you only have to discuss with one guy who is/should represent the ideas and opinion of his clan.

Bye,

Mauti

Hmmm,

After reading and experiencing season upon season of debates, rules and crap and so forth.  I could care less what is really done about admins, decision and who exactly makes them.

I think this is the sole issue since the beggining.  You can have a set of rules for anyone to follow no matter who sets them upon this league. But for fucks sake, make them rules.  I could care less who comes up with them, but as long as I play in the league, I want them to remain the league rules.  I agree that democracy helps and more opinions can expand the league, but all of this goddamn indecision and flexability is ruining just about everything.

JUST STATE THE RULES.  Goddammit, put them forward and stick by them.  This is the result of so much shit.  State them at the beggining of a season, rule upon them, and if they are fucked, change them later.  This is getting too bitchy, too gay, and too political.  If you can't live by these rules then goddammit leave.  Rule with an iron hand.  This is getting way too opinionated.  

I am sorry if this is just me, but I just wish to compete by a set of laws that I can feel will be stuck by.  This has not happened in a while, people have not stuck by this code.  We need some ass whooping when these laws are broken.  This has all gone a bit too far concerning feelings, justice and so on and so forth.  

IF you make the laws we need to adhere to, then we can obide by them if they are ruled justly upon.  But when laws change intermitently without probable cause, then I could care less about the fucken laws.  Why? because they can change without me knowing, caring or fucking having a right to them.  

Just have some sense.

So set the laws, rule on the laws, and live by the law.  If something is wrong with them, well then adjust.  This is just plain ridiculous.

Fah,

You are of course completely right when it comes to the rules in regards to at least following what has been stated.  I feel that this upcoming revision of the rules will help to discourage "loophole seekers" and to make it blatantly clear what a rule means, and what the consequences are.  If you have noticed, the rules have grown considerably longer, but this is mostly due to retroactive behavior from the community, specifically the Admins.  I hope that for all of you that participate in Season 9, the rules will really help to keep things in line.  But alas, you will always have the cry babies, the moaners, and the bitchers.  Personally, I agree with the iron hand method.  I do not think that our "community", or whatever it is, is so small that we cannot simply boot and ban at the slightest infraction.  My feelings are that some people need to be made an example of and we shouldn't think twice about it (especially whether or not we hurt their precious feelings).

.::|N| Noto

I have to agree in many parts with Noto and fah.  They are correct in the fact that there needs to be specific rules to adhere by.  As far as I knew that is why Noto was creating these new rules for all clans to follow.  Which makes sense.  I can also see where Mauti is coming from in that sense as well and what you say makes sense, although we should at least be able to see the posts, even if we cannot reply to them.  That way we will know if there is an issue that we should know about.  I know that everyone wants to make the BL a better place to play cb's and what everyone here is saying are definitely concerns that should be dealt with.  Hell knows I would love to see a set of rules that comes out that there are no loopholes, although if someone thinks about it hard enough they can find one.  That is why I was saying that about having the rules put to our attention before the CB starts.  this way people can look over it and report any possible loopholes that the creator of the rules might have overlooked.  That way less issues will present itself in the future during CB season.  

As for the admins, well, it's like having people in office too long.  Once that happens they become more biased or burnt out more then anything else and in the end it is better to take this out of the hands of the admins and force them to only serve a certain amount of seasons per session.  I used to hear about so many of the admins getting burnt out of serving on the BL and for this we shouldnt have to force them to resign.  Instead we should just make a term for them if they stay within the top 6 for over a certain amount of seasons.  Then at that time they should be replaced with another member of that same clan, as long as they remain in the top 6 during the end of finals.  the longer an admin stays into this position, the more likely they are to either become biased, corrupt, or burnt out all together.  And since in many cases the admins are good players in the community it would be a DAMN shame to have them quit gaming all together because they are just burnt out of the game and the issues that they have to deal with.

:MoD:Saberian

I hope I haven't taken this out of context, but Sab, normally I agree with you... especially when you make sense.  But allowing the public to see the Admin discussions will most likely (I haven't taken a poll yet...) do one or more of the following:

?   Create mass hysteria from those who don't know the whole story.
?   Simply branch off into other threads in the public forum enciting flaming and violence (U.S. only... violence that is).
?   And for an old saying, "Too many indians, not enough chiefs".   More interpretations of a dicussion in which most are not involved will lead to conspiracy theories, mass flaming, and definitely more time spent on the forums posting bull shit rather than playing the game.

I can understand the reasons for allowing the public to view Admin discussions, especially about rules and changes and such, but allowing such a thing would be  a swing of the pendulum to the other side.  I think we can all realize that not everyone here is on the same level.  I mean, ya know, we have some special people on these forums... like the Flanagan boy down the street kinda special.  I think the negatives would definitely outweigh the positives for public viewing of any discussions, even the rules.  Just think of how long it would take for anything to come to fruition with mass hysteria.

.::|N| Noto

     There's always the alternative of making the admins' discussions visible (read-only, of course) after the discussion is closed. Open the system a little, without taking any control away from the admins.

Seeing admin posts would open up a feeling that we may actually know what's going on.

But I still ask where are admins like Horda, and Gambit?

exactly Mysteriio.  Sometimes I think lately that you are a different person because your responses are much more precise and realistic lately. GG.  Anyway, yes that is exactly the reason why they should be visible to the public.  I dont think that anyone but admins should be able to reply to them but yes, we should at least be able to see them to know what is going on.  That way we can keep informed on what is currently going on within the BL.  That has been our main problem with the BL the last 2 seasons.  Because we dont know what is going on, we arent able to understand the decisions that are being made.  At least this way we would have a better understanding of what is going on if there is an issue with the BL at that time.  Plus if someone opens a post that is flaming about the issue you could always lock that topic.  And since you guys do that anyway, nothing would really change there.  Just a little more locking.  And if it is to the point of being offensive to anyone you could always remove it and explain why, or again, lock it, that way no one can respond to the issue.  

the concern I have is for the welfare of the participants of the league because if we are kept up on the latest issues, we can at least have some idea of what the issues are and then at that time present them to their local admin to comment.  And locking them so we cant reply but admins can would keep the flaming to a minimum.  I know this will make a little more work for the admins but to be honest, they are the admins, and when they signed up for this job they basically took the responsability on their hands to control thr forums and issues for the good of the public.  This should be no different except that they are taking a little more responsability in watching the forums.  I dont think by keeping us informed that it would make mass hysteria.  I think by controlling the forums from flaming on these issues and locking peoples posts that they make is really the best thing that you guys can do.  At least people's words can be seen if that is the case and no one can reply on them.  

:MoD:Saberian

:MoD:Saberian

This is for Saber and anyone else promoting the admin section becoming public.

The biggest advantage of having the admins section public would be that admins would be forced to justify their voting, where as they might feel less pressure to do so if only their fellow admins could view the thread.

However, this comes with some major disadvantages. I'll use c| and BTs as examples.

c| and BTs have an issue in a CB. I believe that c| has absolutely no case, and was completly at fault. However, I've got some good friends in c|, and I would love to vote against BTs in public, as a little taste of revenge.

If the debate and vote is public, I would quite possibly go in favor of c|, dispite the fact that I think they're wrong. I wouldn't want to go against my friends publically, and I'd love to piss some of the BTs guys off.

However, if the debate and the vote are in the admins section, I would unquestionably vote for BTs, on the basis of the fact that they're right.

( This isn't an attempt at a flame. I used BTs as an example because we're pretty open with our dislike for one another, and I thought it'd make a realistic example. )

I think having votes in public places more pressure on an admin to vote for what's popular, as oposed to what's right.

I think this whole debate about not making the admin section public is patronising.

I really dont get this "it would increase the flaming" argument. What the hell do you discuss there that would increase flaming?

Typhy, I really didn't get your point either.. . you would vote aggainst your friends privately but not publicly..  ???

Make it public, and make *DAMN democratic

Enough of this grey area shit.

 Joka, it'd be really nice if things were that simple. Hell, if things were that easy, we wouldn't even need Battle League admins, there simply wouldn't be problems. But guess what? They're not.

It's like all those shitty classes you have to take in middle school that talk about "Peer Pressure". You'll do things around your friends that you don't believe in, or that you wouldn't without them around.

You come out, you make your case, then the jury heads off to make the decision, they don't debate it and vote on it with you sitting there infront of them.

Tell me, why do you want to be able to see the admin discussions? What problems in the Battle League do you think this can solve?

I've supported my opinion. Time for you to support yours with a bit more than "make *DAMN democratic".

I'm not close minded about this, but I have to hear some reasons.  

The main reason for not having an open Admin section in my eyes is that:

The admins are here to ensure that the league runs smoothly and is fun for the rest of us. They dont get paid, they work out of ideology. They are admins from clans out there, and therefore run the risk of being accused of being biased. Yes, I agree that what has been done earlier this season whith the chairman and other admins giving us explanations of why the decision was made, is a good thing. But that we should sit there and look into every matter is not right. To ensure the uninfluenced voting from the admins I think we should not participate. But, to remove our influence as a comunity completely is wrong. Perhaps on major issues we should be allowed to discuss the issue at hand first. Have an open forum where we can debate on the proposed rules for example.

But the admins need to get of their high horse. At occasions I have asked some questions concerning decisions and all the answers i got was "it will be explained later". That is not good enough. You should give more than that. This is one of the things i thing the community is getting somewhat...pissed about. So, work with us....not against us as it sometimes feels like.

Horda and Gambit are (or in the near future will be) no longer admins. The full list for next season, excluding the few we plan to add, is quite short: Civic, Flies, myself, and I suppose King. He is about as active as Horda and Gambit, but I never hear anyone whining about him.

 ;D
Doesn't that make me... hmmm... a little too influential?

I don't always agree with Civic and Flies, but I am not sure that I would say they are useless.

MYSTERIO! I mean new admins should be selected in due time. Wait a tick I have another job offer.

Im a noob admin, yes.  And this season being my first I have not been able to be as active as I would like.  But my posts, opinions and votes are always objective and I dont pick fights.  I feel I provide good input when needed and I dont avoid voting on or discussing any issue which needs to be resolved.  I'm also available to anyone on Gameranger whenever I'm on (which is quite often) that has questions be it an average joe or clan member or admin.  I also actually vote on things and present opinions that I feel are for the better of the community and not just my clan.  Is there a problem GhostSniper?

King

No, not at all.  I did that just to make Aramarth feel better after we beat up on him for 3 days.[/size]  ;)

I personally think Mr. King is a great admin. He respects the league in the way necessary. I do also support Flies as a admin.

GS, honestly, those are the only 2 I can say I like. Well at least after Ara cause that misunderstanding and didn't admit his mistake until it was way too late to be worth it. And good ol' Civic....no... I mean.... :-X

i have an idea how about we decide who gets the boot out of the admin spot and you guys ( BL staff ) pick the replacements.