*DAMN R6 Forum

Since most people here seem pretty disillusioned with the choice they will be faced with in 2004, I was wondering exactly what policy platforms you would have if you were running for president. What issues are most important to you, and how do you feel about them?

My ideal candidate would?
1. Advocate immediate legalization of gay marriage across the country and demand strict anti-discrimination standards for different sexualities similar to the ones we already have for different races, religions, etc.
2. End the Patriot Act and all other post-9/11 provisions that have infringed on our civil liberties.
3. End the drug war--get rid of the border agents, free all the incarcerated users, change our foreign policy toward Central and South America, and get medical treatment for addicts rather than lock them away.
4. Cut 20% of the Defense budget and put all the money toward education and my number 5 proposal.
5. Create a national, single-payer, not for profit healthcare system where everyone has 100% coverage, similar to Canada or Sweden's.
6. End our economic embargo of Cuba.
7. Re enter the anti-weapons treaties that Bush has exited, and continue to push anti-proliferation treaties on nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons (and also  landmines).
8. Invigorate the educational system -- provide free preschool for everyone, decrease class size, rebuild inner city schools, raise teacher pay, make funding more equitable, decrease the costs of higher education, provide more financial aid.
9. Follow Jimmy Carter's lead -- make human rights the hallmark of your foreign policy.
This is most of the stuff that is important to me

What is important to you?

Oh, you guys are just gonna love this:

My ideal candidate would...

1.  Pull all U.S. Servicemen back into the United States' Borders.  This means ALL Servicemen...the peacekeepers in Europe and Asia, as well as those serving the United Nations, NATO, and in Foreign Embassies.

2.  Immediately block all trade going into or out of the United States.

3.  Immediately withdraw all foreign aid and demand immediate repayment from Europe and Asia for the costs of U.S. Involvement in WWII, as well as all debts currently owed to the United States.  Also, the U.S. will immediately pay off all debts it owes other nations.

4.  The next time the rest of the world errupts into war, LET THEM KILL EACH OTHER OFF.

5.  Now that will are no longer bankrolling much of the rest of the world, and cut down so much use of our military, we can spend all that extra money on education and social programs back at home.

6.  Create a Constitutional Amendment banning Same-Sex Marriages.  These marriages are an abomination to mankind.

7.  Allow the free use of drugs.  Hell, if kids want to kill themselves, they can be my guest.

Well, doesn't that just sound like a much better U.S.A.???


Peace. [through the ultimate destruction of the enemy by the use of superior firepower]


-GhostSniper Out.

Hehe, Ghost you rock.

1. I'd like a states rights advocate with Federal Government supervision (ie, each state has it's own gun laws, within the confines of the constitution; also, each state has it's own marriage laws within the confines of the constitution, with the caveat that each state must recognise all other's marraiges). This is much the way things are now. I think the consant pull between who's the boss is good.
2. Make Los Angeles the capital of California. (dude, it's just my thing - who the fuck cares about Sacro?)
3. I want a nationalist who's socially liberal and fiscally conservative (ie, moderate New Democrat)
4a. Immeadiately increase foreign spending on world health issues like AIDs, water quality, and hunger. Finally pay the fucking UN for all outstanding back-dues. Recognise birth control as a means of birth control, instead only talking about not having sex.
4b. Offer a wide viriety of over the counter birth control products, including insta-abortion pills (morning afters). Givem them out for free, in fact.
5a. Active military in international issues, particularly peacekeeping and nation building. Create an arm of the miltary dedicated to pascific interventions. (The International Guard? Bush can do ditch duty there).
5b. Get back into serious alliances and international organizations.
6. Increase tax burden of wealthiest 5%. Re-instutute the estate tax.
7. Hardcore on corporate accountablity. Make CEOs crimminally liable for accounting fraud, "cooked books", etc.
8. Cut military R&D.
9. Investigate wtf the NSA is doing with the billions tax payers give them.
10. Shift monies currently spent on mil R&D and use it to R&D new energy solutions (ie, ween us off oil, natural gas - the depletably sources of energy, the ones Americans die to control)
11. Strike Bush the 2nd's name from the list of presidents of the United States. Forever enshine him as the 1st American Dictator. (this one's a juicy meatball)
12. seriously consider why our trade deficit is so high, and fight job-drain and brain-drain to foreign nations. Ie., make people wanna hire Americans and make Americans who are educated wanna stay here.
13. Infrastructure investment: esp national wireless. (internet should be a Right - it's a pure form of freedom)
14. Cut the national deficit. We are running off credit and soon the lenders will stop lending.
15. Legalize and tax the shit outa most drugs, esp mj. The Feds coulod make big money there.
15b. End the war on drugs. Declare victory. Whatever.
16. Repeal PATRIOT act, investigate those that proposed it. Throw them in jail if it turns out they meant to control everyday citizens. Hell, throw them in jail anyway.
17. Make Perto Rico the 51st state. Follow up with Quebec, 52nd. (hehe, then they will have to speak English. Damn wanna be Frenchies!)
18. In-act mimums on state investments in education as a percent of gross spending. Federal funding increase in education spending. Make it a goal (long term) to give all citizens a free education, from cradle to grave.
19. Send Bush II, Dicky, and their buddies to Mars. Let them fuck that planet up.
20. The dude or dudette need to be Single. Thus, if they fuck, then who cares? They'll just be fucking.

You have got to be kidding me GS, holy shit.

I like your list Tasty, sounds like a better America to me.

It's not my country so I won't give a list of my own.

Kami, he's joking. Or at least I hope he is. . .

if its a joke, it isnt a very funny one

I thought it was funny.  ;D

Neither is yours Tasty.  You scare me.

     1. Legalize marijuana and pardon all marijuana-related prisoners. Other drugs I don't care so much about, but legalizing marijuana and freeing its prisoners would immediately end the waste of huge amounts of money. Plus, taxation of drugs is good.

     2. The 2004 budget contains $429 billion marked as discretionary nondefense spending. Allocate at least $25 billion per year to an intensive four-year research and development program to advance the state of the art in non-oil, non-natural-gas energy, with emphasis on fission, fusion, and fission waste disposal. Appoint a committee of accomplished scientists and engineers to head the program, and keep politicians out of it.

     3. The same committee's first order of business would be to take one month and prepare a report concerning our current nuclear waste disposal laws and requirements. Once the report was in, use it as ammunition to repeal the wasteful laws which force low-level nuclear waste to be disposed of as high-level waste and therefore make waste disposal the huge problem it is today.

     4. Institute a national sales tax and amputate 99% of the IRS.

     5. Legally guarantee all people the right to a secular marriage.

     6. Make up a title equivalent to knighthood and bestow it upon Steve Jobs.

     7. Then personally throw a pie in the face of Bill Gates.

     8. Then do the chicken dance.

Wasn't it just a couple days ago you were saying you would consider a vote for Ralph Nader? Because almost literally every thing I just suggested is on his/the Green Party's platform. Either you're full of it or you haven't researched your votes well.

It's obvious that my platform isn't a joke. It's not even that different from what loth suggested (although he obviously wouldnt support the health care provision). The reason why I said that GS's was is because of his thing about halting imports and exports--wouldn't that completely gut our economy? And the thing about us immediately paying off all our debt--where the hell are we supposed to get the resources to do that? We're the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world! And the thing about gay marriages--well? just lol.

ugh, Nader! The n-word. The election terrorist! Gah! Why won't he just go away!

Doesn't he realize that elections are about power and money and ego?

Or maybe that's his whole point - he's want power, money, and has big democrat smashing ego.

Man, we need another Ross Perot. Then at least we'll have a draw from the con side of things.

Blooody, sodding Nader.

I'm only gonna reply to the most extreme posts here so far. And because there are so many points to touch on, I'm going to use a simple, yet effective, system to voice my opinion on each.

Now in some countries this ammounts to an obscene gesture, so if you happen to reside in such a place, please accept my most sincere and heart-felt apologies.

--Tasty--
1.(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/thumbup.gif)
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--The Infamous GS--

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Ok, I just have to comment on this one. Where the hell is the navy going to be? Salt Lake City?
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--Summary--
You're both wack.

i would almost jump into tasty's arms, except i would have to demand more funding for national parks, and more evironmental (spelling?) laws, funding, ect.

the only other problem i can see is that if you were to REALLY run for pres. no one would vote for you, because alot of people are afraid to commit to something, and/or hear the truth about our country's problems.

people like george bush get elected because they don't say anything while they are campaigning (spelling? again) so people don't have to worry about claiming responsability. ( spell? .... by now i have given up)

EXAMPLE
howard dean: tells about problems... people freak, hasn't won one single primary.

Show me where Ralph Nader said to remove all boarder guards?

First, he would be better than the rest of the fascist dogs that are currently running, doesn't make him perfect.  I said I'd vote for Powell over anyone else too.  But it's not only the points you made, but the fact that those are your priorities.  I know Nader listed quite a few others.  And I find those much more important.

Second, Socialized Medicine is a really shitty step to make.  While I agree that there should be more regulation, I also know that if we didn't dump all the money into the system, we wouldn't have the research we have today.  Ask yourself why so many important leaders from other countries come to the USA for surgery?  Why don't they go to Canada as much?  Or stay at home?  Why is it that we had MRI's so long before anyone else?  You can fix problems with health care without going to socialized medicine, and not have all the negative that goes with it.

Third, not all drugs should be made legal, and drug dealers still need to be punished, period.  I've only seen Nader speak out about hemp and marijuana.  

Fourth, we should only enter treaties that are fair, and will actually work.  Leaving out key nations, and allowing nations to not follow such treaties just makes us worse off for being involved.  

Fifth, Education is not a national issue, it's a State and Local issue.  I'm not for taking rights away from State and Local Governments.  That was one of the keystones of the USA (notice we are the United States, that was a very important distinction).  The Federal Government is already too involved where the States should be.  

One last note, I'm surprised that GS's post scared you so much, as your arguments tend to lean in the isolationist direction very often.  Yes, he overstated it, but you've been for no US military presence overseas more than a couple times.  Myself, I'm not an isolationist, I think we need to be out there.  But I am an equal trade advocate, and that's one place Nader is good on too.  Much more important than Gay Marriages.  Let's stop countries from tariffing us and dumping goods.  Bring CAFE up a few miles per gallon and stop that drilling, etc.  Much more important.

I've changed my opinion on the isolationism--I no longer think that it is as good of a  thing. Especially not on trade issues.

On the healthcare, I agree that the top notch facilities in the US are the best in the world. But only a small minority of people can afford those. There are a large number of people in America with no health coverage whatsoever. Right now the overhead costs on our health system run around 13%. We can save a lot of money by going single payer (Canadas are about 3%, Sweden's closer to 1). I just think that people should be able to get the treatment they need, when they need it, regardless of their income level or job status. I see single payer as the best way to do this.

I think all drugs should be legalized because I think that all drugs have the potential to be used responsibly. I can agree with heavy taxation on them. No one advocates this outside of certain libertarians though (my views were actually formed by the book Saying Yes, by the editor of Reason magazine :0).

Sure, I think treaties should be fair too. If they aren't, they can be renegotiated.

I agree that education is a local issue. My suggestion was just for funding to be increased (which the federal government can provide). Some schools just don't have the resources to succeed. I know that this seems like "throwing money at the problem", but from what I've read it seems like money is at least part of the problem. It's a lot harder to complain about underachievement when you have good facilities, good teachers, and high quality academic and extracurricular programs. The individual schools and municipalities can spend the money how they see fit. Some of the higher education programs are federal though? there's just a bit of self-interest in there too (I could always use some extra financial aid :)).

It is not a small minority.  I read on some of the liberal sites that there are about 40 million americans without adiquite health care or insurance.  That leaves over 250 million that do by the 2000 census, right(290+ Billion Americans)?  Yes, 40 million is a number that needs to be dealt with, but let's not get carried away with the propaganda.


There are drugs that can not be used responsibly.  GHB?  Synthetic HGH?  PCP?  There are things that do not have a legitimate recreational use, things that are just too strong for people.  This is the same reason that you don't see 200 proof alcohol for sale in most states (or Canada, etc).


Some of the treaties that have been pulled out of had those conditions I mentioned.  So I'm not against pulling out of treaties that aren't fair.


Actually, they need to yank all federal funding (and not tax for it).  And let the state governments fund it better.

Yes, throw more money at them.  Pay teachers what they are worth.  But, do it on the state level.

Also, very much against your self interests, pull the state funding away from the Universities.  When you look at the fact that only about 20% of people graduate from college, why should that minority be subsidized to do so (and this is coming from someone that not only paid their own way, but has at least one kid they are going to be paying for).  We give a diportionate amount of funds to higher education, compared to the numbers that actually use it.  The money should go where it's more needed.

But, like I said, it's still a state issue.  Let them tax for it, not the feds.

I like alaric's method. YOINK!


--Tasty--
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All good points except that one. Fuck Castro. Once Castro's dead we can end the embargo. But until then, fuck Castro.

--Ghost Sniper--

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5. N/A cause I voted no for the others
6. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/thumbdown.gif) - It's all about the freedom, man.
7. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/thumbup.gif) - Yes, let drugs be free to use... but the way you worded it.... Jesus. You sick bastard. :o

A comment on #1: pull them all out of Iraq, but keep guys everywhere else (like at embassies... if I'm being attacked by crazy Swedes ;) I wanna have some U.S. Soldiers at my embassy to fight 'em off. )

--Sixhits--
1. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/thumbup.gif)
2. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/thumbdown.gif) What about Albany? Tallahassee? Sacramento is not the only oddly picked capitol city out there.
3. This one just confused me.
4. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/thumbup.gif)
4b. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/thumbup.gif) Hooray for sex!
5. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/thumbdown.gif)
6. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/thumbdown.gif) They earned their money. Let them keep it.
7. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/thumbdown.gif) CEO's should only be liable if it was their own fault.
8. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/thumbdown.gif)
9. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/thumbdown.gif) It's kept secret for a reason. Go watch the movie "True Lies" with Ahhhnold. You'll have an entirely new respect for the NSA.
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12. The wording here confused me.
13. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/thumbup.gif) (good idea)
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15. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/thumbup.gif) that's always been my stance on the drug issue. Make it legal, but make it hella-taxed.
16. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/thumbup.gif)
17. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/thumbdown.gif) We don't need either of them.
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19. Ok...
20. Another oddly worded one.

Tasty i love you.... GhostSniper you scare the freaking shit out of me.

Haha!  But I'm the only one anybody calls "Infamous"! (by alaric)


Peace.  [by nuking the rest of the world into submission]

-GhostSniper Out.

whats scary is the guy that has gay marrige as the #1 thing to look for in a canidate has a bunch of you saying you love him. i'm not against gay marrige, i like to smoke weed and if the next guy likes to smoke pole thats his business. but with all the other shit goin on in the world today i find it funny that letting gay people get married is the most important thing you look for in a political canidate. and for those that say they love him for it...well....

and besides demanding reparations from european countries from WWII, GS's points would all but fix all that the world thinks is wrong with america. they complain about american soldiers all over the world (until they need those troops to save their asses), they complain about our debt, they complain about out trade deals, etc. and while legalizing all drugs would never happen (for good reasons) i and millions and millions of other americans would like to see marijuana legalized or at least decriminalized.

one of the things i like to see in a canidate, is what has he done for the people already. has he made a difference or is he just some super rich fuck that has a good smile. i don't think nader will ever be a president for those exact reasons, but he more than any man in politics today can proudly say that he has made a difference in his life. if you've ever been in a car accident and didn't need a spatula to scrape your face off the windshield...thank ralph nader

Could someone explain to me how the american president is voted?

What are primarys?
Why isnt Bush campaigning?
I heard something about electors, who are they, what do they do?

Here is how the electoral college works:

http://www.fec.gov/pages/ecworks.htm

Now this is the really funny part of the process:

"The electoral votes are then sealed and transmitted from each State to the President of the Senate who, on the following January 6, opens and reads them before both houses of the Congress."

You see, the President of the Senate is also the Vice President of the United States.  So if he were running for President, and lost, he would have to read off his defeat to Congress PERSONNALLY.  This has actually happened, most notably in the case of Richard Nixon who lost to John F. Kennedy, and more recently Al Gore who lost to George W. Bush.


As for why isn't Bush campaigning.....he will.  But hey, he has the War on Terrorism to fight!

Bush is waiting for someone with a few brain cells to tell him that he might need to make an effort to get some morons to vote for him. He is incapable of doing this himself as both of his braincells are busy a) figuring how string two words together, and b) beleiving he is on a crusade of good v evil, west v east. Given his advisors he might have to wait sometime

Actually, Bush doesn't have to campaign yet, since he's the automatic Republican Candidate.  The other parties are trying to select their candidates, that's the campaigning going on now.

Bush will start campaigning hard core once he finds out which Democrat he can start a smear campaign on.

BFG, you are the one lacking brain cells. Look up the facts before you act like a tard and spout off anti-Bush sentiment. I love reading the crap some of these idiots post without bothering to look up the facts behind them. Making assumptions makes you look like an ass - especially wrong assumptions.

Bush is also "competing" in the primary elections, but he is running unopposed. Seeing that he is unopposed, he is not going to waste his time, money, or effort campaigning in an election that he is virtually guaranteed a victory in.

On another front, the idiot Howard Dean finally bowed out of the race...."Heeeeeyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhh!" Mr. Dean's downfalls had to be that retarded speech after his loss in Iowa, and the endorsement by Al Gore. Gore seems to lose everything that he is involved with after Clinton left town.

Bush is campaigning. Just doing a bad job.

Dude is facing the collapse of his public image, a crisis in public confidence, constant pressure from progressive and conservative groups on all fronts (like the new immigration proposal and Mars trip), and he's just not sure who he'll be fighting.

Back when it looks like it was gonna be Dean, we saw a lot of shit hit the fan about Dean. I mean, serious media shitstorm.

Then, with Kerry, we she more shitstorm. Trouble is Kerry's harder to smear (really hard to question someone's creditablitty when everyone is questioning your own).

and now here comes Edwards. Bush and goons (Rovites) just don't know what they are facing. Worse for them, they are on the defensive like never before. Kinda like right after the German's lost the battle of Stalingrad and 300,000 men.

As for hahahaha Dean: I guess that's one way of looking at it, Ac. Look at the idiota progressives who no one likes! Harharhar!

Think of it this way:

Yesterday, a Democrat won the first campaign for federal office this year. His name is Ben Chandler and he's from KY. He defeated a staunch Bush loyalist who ran on her 98.8% voter alignment with Bush and DeLay. One of the telling things about this election, other than it was the first time since '91 a Dem won a special election and, as thus, it's an indicator of where things are heading, this election was heavily support via internet contributions.

Chandler spent 2000 bucks on net advertising and had a return of almost 80,000 bucks.

And lookie! He won. Chandler's system of fund raising was based off Dean's.

That is, Dean's progressive nature and the infrastructure he built to run that interest has paid off in handing the Dems a very, very big victory.

Dean is now going to apply that fundraising, get out the vote rallying, message sending wonder that was DeanForAmerica.com to all Dem elections. Dean, if you remember, raised 40 million bucks (of which lots were from young and first time voters).

So Dean's contribution, as well as Gore's, has been to re-vitalize the Dem's, in fundraising, message sending, and rallying the troops.

Dean has done a very cool thing. When a Dem wins the pres we can all sing his praises, for Dean's message, his money, and his rallying power will have been the foundation of that victory.

woot i've found a moron who would vote for bush!... ah probably if you were 10 years older that is.

"acura" or whoever since you wont use your registerd name on the bl... thanks for the info lol. Great to see someone is gonna defend bush and provide some quality entertaimnent.
So thanks for making me laugh, it was funny reading your post, and if you fancy making me laugh again by pointing out where exactly i made incorrect assumptions and exactly where did i post any 'facts'.
Oh of course not counting the fact that the guy is a analy retentive chimp who couldn't govern his own ass let alone a country.

Ditto :D

I think its time you went back to class, surely your play time is over now?

woot! i found another moron that can't even vote talking shit about bush again!

Cutter, if you're talking about BFG, you're right, he's british.

As for Bush, he's got his own little private hell up there I'm guessing.

woot! another one! seems to be an endless supply here. it's the campain season here kami, there's nine months left till the election, and the reason it seems as though the president is goin through a tough time right now is because every democrat in the country is dragging his name through the dirt trying to get his job. he's going to be attacked for every little thing he does or doesn't do until then. and it goes both ways, but the incumbant usually doesn't go on the attack until he knows who his opponent is going to be. we just had the last democratic primary this week and it looks like john kerry is going to get the democratic nomination. he'll pick his team (vice president and such) and bush and his team will start their attacks. infact they've already begun their smear campain on the web with a nasty little commercial about kerry. happens every election. politics is a dirty dirty business.

I wonder why you always talk about people not being able to vote? It's like you enjoy disenfranchising them.

And about the age-comments. You can check on people's profiles for their ages. Both BFG and I post our ages. You do not. What are you hiding? :-)

Hehe. For once I completely agree with you.

But I think you should add "every democrat and journalist in the country is dragging his name through the dirt".

It also doesn't help bush that he just keeps fucking up and falling face first into the dirt. Wtf was up with the jobs prediction? Why does he say he'll release all records for National Guard service then won't, then will, does, then we find out the "complete" records are missing several important documents (like his final Officer Efficiency Report? His pay stubs? The Flight Inquiry Board report after he was grounded for missing his physical?). And why Mars? Why the fuck Mars and why ain't he talking about it anymore? And for a president who plays to his base like Clinton gets knobjobs in the oval office, what's up with his plan on immigration reform? It's a comedy of errors.

I'm just glad to see the house of cards fall. And the Dems sacking the fuck up after four years of pussyfooting.

i know how old the both of you are and i know where you both live as well six. age isn't the only factor in voting. and i don't know why you can't see my age. because unless ghostsniper has crazy telepathic birthay wishing powers, and he used those very powers to wish me a happy birthday, my age should be visible. even to you.

Yep, Cutter is a ripe old 29 year old.

And GhostSniper will be 31 on April 10.

Damn I love talking about myself in the 3rd Person :)

-GhostSniper Out.

well nobody's ever accused bush of being the smartest guy on the block or being a good speaker, or even being able to complete a sentence with-out completley fucking it up, but i don't think in the last election anybody voted for just bush. infact the one thing he had going for him was the team he surrounded himself with. powell, cheney, rumsfeld, etc. rummy and cheney may not have a lot of fans, but to deny their experience in government and power in the republican party is silly. powell himself could have run and possibly would have won the nomination, maybe even the office.

and you don't think mars was his idea do you? nasa comes before the house all the time pitching ideas and begging for funding. we put a man on the moon what more than 40 years ago? i think it's about time they did something worthy of the billions they get every year. mars has been in the plannings for decades. this is one of the things that clinton with that nice surplus should have presented as his baby. he coulda picthed it to us like clemens, hit us upside the head with it, and we would've loved him for it. maybe it's a matter of waiting for the technology needed to be avalible. i think i said this in another post but, i have no problem with sending people to mars, i just think that with all the other shit going on right now he could've waited for an announcement like this. maybe after they get osama, things settle down in iraq, fixed the budget some.

and your right about the media, especially the media nowadays. 24 hours a day, local, national, and the worst of them all....cable news channels. nowadays if a 13 year old falls of a bike in montana i have to know about it in miami. little exaggerated but it's getting that way. howard dean is a great example, they built him up and then loved the ratings when he jumped off that cliff in iowa. for the last few months the democrats have had all the air time with their debates and attacks on bush. i suspect it's only gonna get nastier once the bush team starts digging stuff up on kerry and his pick for vp.

i don't know i hate the media for overplaying and dramatizing everything bad going on in the world, but it was pretty cool watching the war going on live on t.v. watching A-10 wathogs running strafing missions in downtown bagdhad and tanks and troops rolling down the street from saddam intl. airport. sadistic, but very entertaing right before playing some ghr.

So very true, I can't vote to stop the Republicans staying in power, and its a great shame. I don't see anywhere were people who can't vote in the elections not being alowed to voice their opinions though.

So yes im british, it could be worse (could be a hell of a lot better) and no i can't vote. Dosn't stop me from giving a damn about world politics and the fact that i beleive that having bush or another republican in power is not a good thing, for either america or the rest of the world. So where exactly does it matter if i can vote or not? Unfortunatly it will effect my life. Perhaps if more people looked further than the end of their own nose or wallet people might notice how these issues have bigger inplications than your back yard.

Cutter, with private hell I was referring to the fact that he hasn't gotten what he wanted from the Iraq invasion when it comes to primary objectives and other things like that, I was not referring to criticism against him per se.

And how could i forget:

Ghost looking at your wish list.....


So if your wanting to isolate yourself from the rest of the world would you mind also keeping all your own polution and carbon dioxide emissions? You can drill into your own nature resurves, cut your own forests down, and your military can sit around doing nothing as you won't be able to go off to war with other countries.  If you want to close yourselves off fine, ruin your own fucking country.

One last thing...


That statment disguests me. I have several gay friends and i would like to know exactly how this is an abomination? Seeing as all your oppinions appear to revolve around making sure you lookafter yourself and your country, why suddenly care about one other thing? If your not gay how does this affect you? What right have you to say that it is an abomination? an abomination of what?  What has marrage got to do with mankind? its our invention so who should say that a marrage of two women or men who love each other is an abomination? So love is an abonination then?

Basically, I agree with everything else you sad (including a dirty, sadistic pleasure at watching us kick ass - yes, even I like a good american ass kicking)

Simply, put: all those policies I mentioned were set by the president, even if they were suggested by his advisors (as they surely were). The buck stops with him, even really stupid ideas, and not just the "glory" of blowing shit up.

Okay, for the first part:  With all the money we would save from not giving aid to the rest of the world we could work on polution-free energy sources and wouldn't have to worry about poluting the atmosphere.  And we have enough of our own resources that we don't really need anybody elses.  We have just chosen to keep our own resources in reserve.


For the second part:  Yes, same-sex marriages are an abomination.  BECAUSE GOD SAID SO IN THE BIBLE.  And sorry mate, but I believe him over anything any person in this forum says any day of the week (and twice on Sunday).  So, go argue that one with Jesus.  Because whether you believe in him or not, one day you will sit at the judgement seat of God and it wont matter that you didn't believe....because then it will be too late.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

     Do you eat shellfish, GS?

No, bad for your cholesterol and all.  Why do you ask?

oh man are you missing out! GS i promise you try this and you'll change your mind about shellfish.

a couple dozen - little neck clams (make sure they're all closed)
1/2 stick Butter (i always use unsalted butter for cooking)
1-2 cloves minced Garlic
1/2 bunch of Basil cut in thin strips
2-4 tbs of chopped Parsley
1-2 cups of White Wine
2 Lemons quartered
S & P

Melt the butter in a large pot. Add the wine, clams, garlic, basil, parsley, lemons, and s&p. Cook over med - med high heat, and cover immediatly until all of the clams open.

i'm not to fond of oysters but i usually buy 3-4 dozen littlenecks when i make this recipe and it's a always a race and fight to the last one.

                    enjoy!

                    Chef Cutter

Im guessing your a Christian then... So why exactly are you prepared to remove all aid that the US give to the worlds most in need? Im seeing just a few contrasts in oppinion here. On one side your refering to the bible and how its an abomination for two people to love each other, on the other hand you seem to find it perfectly acceptable to allow millians of people to die. How so?

Let me put it to you this way:


Stop aid and let millions of people starve to death.

or

Cut back on the absurd size of your military and spend the money on environmentally friendly energy sources (won't happen while the republicans are in power), inprove education, provide a NHS, raise the bread line and have a few billion to spare)

Funny, since you appear to be a strong christian i wonder why your keener to let millions of people die, rather than destroy a military who's existance is to kill...  


 Yep thats right, fuck up other countries to keep yours nice.


Show me. Go on show me the exact lines where "god" (he wrote the bible did he heh) said that  that it was an abomination for two people to love each other. Becasue that is basically what you are saying. If not show me where it says that two men or two women cannot love each other?

Yes if Jesus actually existed i might have a quick word. pity about that.

So everything about loving all gods creatures ect is not true?... your not allowed to love someone if they are the same sex as you?

Id still love to find the quote in the bible which says "same sex marrages are an abomination"

you guys should step out of your holes for a bit and do some modern research on Jesus.  

     Unchanging Word of God and all that, eh? The anti-homosexuality passage in the Bible is Leviticus 18:22, and reads as follows (KJV): "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." As an incidental side note, this says nothing about lesbianism.

     Leviticus is primarily concerned with God's law--what you can't do and how you should be punished for doing it. Aside from the famous 18:22, there are some very interesting bits in there. For instance, 11:10: "And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:" It seems that God says eating shellfish is as terrible a crime as having sex with a man. Quick, let's pressure our elected representatives to shut down every Red Lobster in the country!
     Lev. 19:27 forbids cutting the hair at your temples or trimming your beard. "Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard." I guess damn near everybody except Hasidic Jews are on God's shit list, eh?
     Lev. 19:28, the very next passage, forbids tattoos. "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD." Got any tattoos, O Honored Serviceman?
     Lev. 11:26 mentions eating bloody meat: "Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood:..." And to think, I've seen Christians eating rare steaks. For shame.

     You used the Bible as the sole justification for your argument, GS. I refuse you the right to pick and choose, however. If you're going to say that a book written millennia ago is sufficient justification to deny people the right to live their own lives without your interference, you've got to take the whole package, from "God hates gays" to "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalm 137:9), to "It's all good in God's eyes to sell your daughter into slavery." (Exodus 21:7)

Here is the full text of the first chapter of Romans:

Romans 1

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. 13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. 14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


Now, the most important parts of this scripture that you need to know are contained in Versus 24, 26, 27, 31, and for you, especially verse 32.  Now then, read that verse 32 again..."but have pleasure in them that do them."  So even if you are not a homosexual (which is against God in itself); if you let it happen it is just as bad.

As for the first parts of my argument....I was being totally sarcastic.  I do not want to stop giving aid to the rest of the world, nor do I really want all of our troops to stop protecting our interests around the world and come home.  I do, however, want the rest of the world to stop treating the United States like it is some dictatorship out to take over the world.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

Your biggest problem here is in using only the Old Testament of the Bible to support an argument against me.  The laws of the Old Testament were washed away with our sin when Jesus died for us on the Cross.  Now if you look what I just posted, it is out of the New Testament, which is what Christians of today are taught to follow (not that the wisdom of the Old Testament should be overlooked, however).

I really don't think you are going to win any debates about the Bible with me though, I had good teachers.  My father is a Missionary and my father-in-law is a Preacher.  I have been in church since I was born.  And no, that does not make me perfect.  Being a Christian does not make me perfect nor does it mean that I no longer sin.  I do.  Everyone does.

However.

It does mean I'm forgiven.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

I think one should not follow and believe the bible or any other "holy book" word-by-word, but look for the spirit of it. If you take a german or english bible, it has probably been translated from the latin one, whereas this one has been translated from a greek bible, and that one from hebrew. There are just too many translation errors in it. Additionally, the bible was written by men, and men a) are prone to errors, and b) are very influenced by the time they live in. Even the new testament has been written too long ago, that one can truly understand the context in which many parts of the bible were written in.

IMO, the koran is one good example for a religious book/writing, which is being followed by many of its believers too closely. In countries such as Sudan, Saudi-Arabia or the Afghanistan the Taliban used to rule, the koran is/has been the law. If there was a christian theocracy, things wouldn't be much different than in these countries.


one question for you, GS: do you believe in Creation like it is described in the bible? that it took 7 days to Create Earth and that?

Elandrion

Yes, I do.  For with God all things are possible.  :)


But really, I think we are all just a bit off topic now.  Unless someone is for Jesus as President.

Ghost do you believe that the bible should be taken literally for everything? How can you only chose to follow one thing such as homosexuals being immmoral and not stone others for being adulterous?

"Unless someone is for Jesus as President."

I say let's find us a small mexican named Jesus and stick him on the ticket.

All kiding aside, it's pretty hard to argue religious doctrines, laws, and tenets with people who follow them. They are their doctrines, laws, and tenets. Much like if when the French want us to eat frogs. It just doesn't fly.

However, and this is the part that gets me going and leads to my opinion that American Conservative Christians are schizophrenic (not clinicly, just of two heads) - their faith calls on them to be one way, their patriotism calls on them to be another.

To be truly American you must be able to seperate your practice of faith from your making of public policy.

The founders, revolutionary liberals of their day, (does anyone remember when the Dems were considered conservative and Repubs liberal? Little "l" liberal?Just a thought.) wanted religion seperate so that all faiths could be enjoyed, and none. But the conerstone of this is they wanted the people to be free and get free-er. Banning gay marriage *in the Constitution* is completely antithical our American brand of freedom.

All "under God"s aside, America was founded on the principal of secularism precisely because the founders saw how fundamentalist churchs, state sponsored religion, and political leaders used faith to abuse the people and inhibit freedom.

They may have been faithful people (many were agnonstic) but the Founders didn't want to turn Americans into copies of them - they wanted Americans to be whoever they are.

It's all fine and good to be religious, but to argue that, for example, gay marriage is wrong and should be banned because it's expressly condemed in the bible, nor backed by any religious text, is to truly and utterly miss the whole point of living in America.

You make me want to live in the US, Six.

GS, you repulse me.

I fail to see how living by the 'rules' of the bible which was written so long ago can have anything possitive. i have the utmost respect for people and their faith, but only to a point where we enter the realms of religous extreamists....


What a lot of people won't pick up on is that many of the founders were actually the equivelant of religious extreamists who could not or would not live in the societys that hey had left... im not saying they all were, or in somcases that they were moving away for a valid reason. I suppose ultermatly what im saying is they way in which some americans practise christianity is somwhat scary.

And im not just slagging of  religionas a whole by the way... if i had any faith it would be/ is in Buddism but i certianly have abosolutly NO faith in anything regarding christianity.

As much as I agree with where you are coming from, BFG, I disagree with your statement. SOME (few, I know) elements of the bible are pretty fucking cool. Particularly the variants of thou shalt not kill. Indeed, most of the ten commandments are really good tenets. It's the extremes ppl go to to force apun others those tenets (often the hypocracy of this, trying to teach ppl to live under the rule of God, which is mostly based in goodness, through force and hatred) that really is the problem.

Variants of this, from Islamic terrorism to American Christian Fundamentalists agendas, I'd argue, that are the greatest problems facing humanity.

On an related note, attacking the bible is a good way to get flamed to death. Literally. By those that beleive it. Besides, we should take what's good from it before we toss it in the dust bin of history. ;-)

I wish I could go argue shit out with Jesus. Perhaps there is a Heaven and he'll want to chat with a true Liberal.

Besides, seems like the dude was a hippie (and, you know, with all those guys he hung out with ... him never getting laid, and all ... I'm just betting Mary M was a fag hag), and I'm betting Jesus had a cool point of view on life. Like Peace, Love, Be Cool man.

I'm pretty sure if Jesus was around these days dude would be cool with gays.

It's the people who editorialized his fucking Book a hundred or two hundred years after his death that I have no interest in. Those fools shat on a good thing.

I'm looking forward to his resurection - either to be proven wrong (oh well, shit) or to see everyone who thought they were right proven wrong (yay!).

Either way, it would rock to chill with Jesus. Him and Buddha. And Confucious. Hell, even Mohammad. And L Ron Hubbard. But I'd keep Ron in chains and thoroughly druged in case he went all "wacko" on the group.

Closer to the topic, there's a great article on Kerry and Bush in the latest Newsweek, apparently they both went to Yale, I never knew that, you should all read it. Also there's a shorter article about how popular JFKerry is in Europe, pretty funny.

I don't know if I'd like to chill with Jesus... would creep me the fuck out to be talking to a guy who'd been dead for two millennias ;o

If he is resurected he'd most likely be outcasted and ignored for being a false christian and crazy dude.  Until of course he pulled out some mumbo jumbo magic.  Then he'd be a looked at as a marvelous sideshow.  Then what would he do?  He might attempt a large peace movement, and when he and his followers became too powerful in numbers, someone would most likely kill him off (crucified).  So... he may have already been resurected a few hundred times.  My point is, if you can separate yourself from the fantastic stories historically created in the bible, you'd see that Jesus and his teachings lives on.  We just choose to ignore it as anything real.  This is mainly due to the influence of long standing and powerful institutions that rather us believe that they are the true voices of God.  
 

 

I'd just like to point out one small thing here. God said nothing in the bible. It was written by man and copied down through the millenia by man. It is no more God's word than anything I read on this forum. It's just an old "he said, she said".

Not that there isn't wisdom and good lessons in the bible, of course there are. It's the best summation of the human condition I know of. In fact, there is more useful life-living information in that one book than any other. But that doesn't make it the word of God.

Very true Alaric, The bible has to be the most famouse story, and stories are tales handed down from person to person, by word of mouth or by varient of text..


I totally agree, and im all for people tryiing to live under such guidlines as not killing each other. What i don't agee with is people 'picking and choosing' the bits they feel they want to 'use'.

Variants of this, from Islamic terrorism to American Christian Fundamentalists agendas, I'd argue, that are the greatest problems facing humanity.

That... and george bush ;)

Steal This Book, by Abbie Hoffman

I kid  ;D

but there really is a lot of useful info in that book (although most of it is dated now)

This is one of my favorite posts I've ever read on this forum, or any other for that matter. Also, since Ghostsniper quoted the bible to support his point of view, I think I should be allowed to quote one of my favorite verses:

"Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common. With great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and there was a great grace upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and bought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need." (Acts 4:32-4:35)

Well, it appears that Jesus and his disciples were all communists. If you really want to be a christian, you should support overthrowing our capitalist market economy and replacing it with one based around the common need. But instead of helping people, most christians are more concerned with denying them their civil rights instead. Pretty sad, if you ask me.

Hahaha Tasty, I had no idea the bible said that, that's pretty cool, makes me want to read it. Very good point there.

So Jeovah ... was a stinking Red Commie Bastard?

What do you think about that  comrade Ghost sniper?

funny isn't it that 'god' apparently chose to write the bible in the third person... in past tense

How did this thread start with politics and end with bible talk?

Should be pretty clear if you actually read it.