*DAMN R6 Forum

I'm disappointed to have missed some of the debate on the US's reaction to the WTC attack, but I just want to add my own 3 or 4 cents.

It seems like everyone seems to have an opinion, but to quote pyschoassassin, "where are the voices of reason?"

We Americans are hurt and angry over the attack, but why is there so much talk of war?  Having read through some of the threads here, I can also quote another apt comment - it seems as though some of us have yet to fully evolve.  Quite simply, what possible good can come from further bloodshed?

Why is it that [in this week's Newsweek poll] 71% of Americans support an attack on countries that harbor terrorists, regardless of an civilian casualties?  In our blind rush for revenge, have we lost all respect for human life?  Isn't this a time when we ought to value it even more so?

In all of the world's history, war has never been successful when the enemy is not fully defined, and often leads to further innocents' casualties.  When America entered the highly controversial Vietnam war, the enemy was uncertain.  When a soldier entered a ravaged village, there was no way to know if he were surrounded by friendly supporters or 6-year old children aiming handguns.  War has no true rules.  If we enter a 'war' against Afganistan, intending to root out and 'eliminate' all the terrorists, how will we know who is the enemy?  Are the curious citizens on the street innocent, or do they make dark plots when we do not look?  Are their lives important?  Should US troops kill these potential terrorists?  How can we know?

Perhaps I have not voiced these concerns as clearly as some might, as I am but a na?ve 14-year old.  However, I do not wish to live in a world in which people will be massacred by the supposed greatest nation on earth, simply for sharing a religion, a homeland, or a culture with evil.  There is no simple solution to the threat of terrorism, but it seems clear to me that retaliatory violence serves no purpose and further increases the body count. If we attempt to eradicate all terrorists from the world, it will give legitimacy to their cause among those dispirited people with which they live.  America does not need to give itself further cause to be seen as the enemy, we need to instead do more to be the hero.  We give aid money, yet we continue to ignore the oppressive regimes that sap the region.  If we must take action, let it be to completely reform and if necessary replace the government of much of the Middle East....we have the power to do so.

Please add your opinions to this....I am tired of hearing bloodthirsty fools rushing to sign up to "kill the Arabs" [sic].  Although perhaps one of you, and I have seen a few on the forums, can explain to me why a radical viewpoint makes sense.  If you cannot, I certainly hope our nation's leadership can....or will choose a more sensible path than the one I fear they are undertaking.

Very well said.

Loud, your comments are well thought-out, but your logic is skewed.

Retaliation on terrorists and countries that WILLINGLY harbor and SUPPORT them is the right and only course of action.

There will be innocent people who die. There will be bloodshed. Sadly, this in unavoidable.

There is no negotiation with terrorists. There is no way we can get them to stop unless we capture or kill them. We can?t let an attack on thousands of innocent people go unpunished. If we do, it will mean thousands of more people will die.

What is the difference between any retaliatory actions the US will make versus the attacks of the terrorists? US attacks are made in the hopes of saving thousands of potential lives. Terrorist attacks are made in the hopes of destroying and murdering thousands of innocent people.

Black brings up a very good point. You don't think that innocent people will die in this? Of course they will, but that's the price we have to pay.

The president said, "We will make no distinction between the terrorists and the country that harbors them..." Like Bush said, we aren't not going to allow a country to harbor terrorist who have killed thousands just go unpunished.

Loud,
very good points, and great use of color ;P

Blackie, I don't think it's "the only course of action and right thing to do" ?I think it's A course of action and not the worst thing. ?But if we could go in, only get the ones that were guilty, that would be the best thing.... now, if only someone knew how to do that. ?

The most important lesson to learn here is that life is all about compromise. ?No solution is ever really perfect for everyone. ?This is the underlying concept that our country is based upon.... that never gets talked about. ?So, to end the effects of terrorism in America (and hopefully the world), many people are going to have to give things up. ?Some will give up freedoms, some will give up safety, some will give up lives.... what's important is that we weigh them all, and make the best decisions going forward. ?After all.... is the life of an innocent American more valuable then the life of an innocent Afghan, or Canadian, or anyone?

Just to throw more food for thought...... as if we didn't have enough.

And remember boys and girls, it's very American to voice your opinions on these issues.  Questioning the government was kind of what started the whole American Revolution way back when, you know.  And that's why Freedom of Speach is what it is.  If it was only meant for the popular ideas.... it wouldn't be freedom.  Please remember that when calling each other names (this doesn't apply to this thread.... yet... but it does in many others).

Like Grift said, sometimes America thinks that we are more important then others, but are we really? I mean what makes us so much better then them, just cause we have a well built government? Well, none of this really matters to me, because in my opinion, the US can do just about anything and I will support it.

Blind support of a corrupt nation, very nice Vap.  

How does that differ from the blind faith of many Muslims who are followers of fanatical Sheikhs.  Hmmm?

Hypocrisy abounds in this day and age.

Grift, I wasn't suggesting bombing an entire nation. I was suggesting taking action against those who are guilty. However, if it comes to it, a few missles directed at a terrorist camp that kill a few innocent people is much better than another WTC attack.

I know what you were saying Blackie.... all I was saying was..... "what is a few".  If we kill one more innocent then they did.... what does it make us?  Is that really worth it.  What if we kill just a few less innocents to get to 'em.....  does that justify killing innocents?  Why is it ok for us, but not for them?

I'm not saying at all that it isn't worth a little bloodshed to bring down these evil bastards.  What I'm saying is that if we aren't careful... we'll be those evil bastards in a lot of eyes.

I saw an interesting idea in an email forward today...

Someone suggested that we 'bomb' Afganistan with an airlift.  Essentially, drop thousands of care packages with American goodies.  Bring the people food, clothing, pro-American propaganda, everything western possible.  If the people learn that America is truly not the enemy, they will support us and American-supported governments in the country, not crazed militant Taliban dictators.

Perhaps the best part of this would be that it could be done in such a large scale that it would be impossible to avoid.  Think about how many packages of food or medicine could be airlifted for the price of one cruise missile.

Think about it....we spend millions of dollars on complicated hunks of metal that would feed an entire nation for a day.  Perhaps most appealing, there would be zero loss of life, unless somebody got hit on the head ;)

naw chances are the taliban would tell everybody that it was the evil, greedy, rich, Americans trying to make them think America is their friend, before the invasion. or something like that.
even worse the plan could backfire, and the taliban would be all:
anyone who goes within 10 feet of those crates of food gets shot.
there would be a large loss of civillian life.

on another note, what the hell was with Bush completely ignoring the existance of Canada during his speech to congress??
hes talking about a couple of indians praying at their embassies, and he doesnt even mention the fact that Canada held a huge memorial at Parliament Hill with thousands of people attending, or the fact that canadians in every city turned up in droves to donate blood to the red cross to help with the shortage, and nothing about how our fire fighters headed to New York to help with the crisis. It feels like America gave us the cold shoulder, even after we gave so much help.

Loud,
I know that three things working against the airlift of care packages are:

1) It didn't work for us in any other conflict we tried it in.  The tried that sort of thing often in Vietnam.... and the practice goes back to WW2.
2) To do it with the right amount of effort that you speak of would mean also supplying the terrorist camps themselves.
3) As to the "no loss of life", methinks they would be shooting down a plane or three that crosses into their airspace.... they wont want us there.... and I'm sure they've purchased a few SAM's.  We'd have to go take those sites out first...... which would mean loss of life.

But Loud, at least you are thinking "out of the box".  Looking for solutions that fit in with your beliefs.  That takes a certain amount of conviction and courage.  I respect that.

Black Sheep, as to Bush ignoring the great white north, eh.  You gotta remember that he has a small amout of time.  He was thanking those individuals mentioned for a specific reason.  To prove a point.  Saying to the American people (his number one audience) that our friends up north are shaken and angry at this...... we all already know that.  It wont make me feel any better to hear Bush say it.  Now, to tell us how people in the middle east are reacting negatively to it, that stops some of the blind hate directed at all middle eastern peoples.

So, thanks Canada!  I will officially never play the "Blame Canada" song again, in honor of your stand with the USA on this."

[/color]

Thanks for for pointing those out....

By the way, what is the "blame Canada" song??

The "Blame Canada" song was from the South Park movie.... from where the US declares war on Canada.  Funny enough, the song was up for an Oscar.

Black, It's good to have someone with jingoist rantings in every thread.  Needless to say, your wrong.

The "smart bomb" allegedly used in desert storm never was used in large quantities.  most of the bombing occured from slightly upgraded b-52s.

Cruise missles have been proven ineffective in submissifying (i know its not a word, shut up) a country over and over again.  they arn't as accurate as we like to think, and they  don't have the power necessary to be truely useful.

How then do you suppose we retaliate?

We could put in a spec ops team.  A jolly good idea, save for the more than 150 handheld SAMs in the possesion of the taliban.  Any one of which can take out a helicopter.

There is always full scale invasion.  But krustchev might suggest that that doesnt work.  LBJ, god rest his soul, would no doubt agree.

Im not saying we cant do it with force, and im certainly not saying we wont.  But its just not wise, or humane.


As for this "package" thing loud speaks of, well, thats just ridiculous.

Do you know what the surefire way to have zero casualities, and stop the attacks on the US?  Withdraw all troops for the middle east, cut aid to isreal.  That however, is giving into the terrorists, which is just sick.

Why do i feel like I'm repeating my other posts?  O well.  Im all for exhausting our diplimatic options  first, and meanwhile, getting more intelligence on usama's whereabouts and organization.

Mort, so essentially your ideal course of action is...wait...you don't have one. You haven't suggested a solution, just tried to pick apart and prove that eveyone else's are not going to work.

I'm all for gathering intelligence and having a strategized political attack on the terrorists, but there's no way in hell the US won't retaliate with force.

As I already said, the terrorists aren't going to put down their guns and walk into their local US embassy and asked to be arrested. We won't be able to use politics to get the terrorists, which is why an attack on terrorists is inveitable.

Bottom line, whether we use a political attack or a armed forces attack, the terrorists are going to get pissed and will start making more and more attacks on America. In other words, we're going to get hit either way, and we might as well hit back harder, quicker, and with a bigger bang.

and finally, if people actually listened to your ideas, the US would most likely be in a heated war with Iceland. yep. it's sooo true.

Ok, I guess it's time for me to end my weekend long sabbatical and chime in with my opinions. Where to begin.

I'll start with the only truly viable idea in the thread, blackhand's. You guys have to be realistic about a few things:
A) We MUST retaliate hard against the terrorists. There is absolutely no room for a debate on letting this go. We are the United States of America. You do not do this to us and get away with it.
B) There may be a small loss of innocent life, but this is pretty much inevitable in combat. Even sending in the special forces would result in the loss of life. GRIFT touched on the point of whether the life of an American is more valuable than the life of a foreigner. I say that this is almost wholeheartedly true (Britain and Canada have always stuck with us. I have a great amount of respect for both of those nations, and I afford their citizens almost the same respect I do for Americans) If it comes down to sacrificing the lives of 100 Afghans to save 50 American soldiers, there is no choice in my mind.

Loudnotes, I must admit that your solution was creative, even if it wasn't realistic. I would like to make it clear that airlifting has worked in one war time situation, but this was under very different circumstances. When the USSR cut off access to West Berlin, we airlifted food, water, and even toys (hey, you can't have Christmas without toys) for the West Berlin people. This was a huge success, and the USSR was forced to back down.

Mort, I almost knew you would come up with the Vietnam comparison, but this situation is different. Our technology is far more advanced, and our goals are completely different. We wouldn't be trying to beat the entire country into submission like Nam. We would be searching out Bin Laden and possibly Taliban leaders/strongholds. Also, we aren't incompetent like the USSR in the 80's. Plus, the USSR had to go up against our supplies in the 80's. No one will give that kind of aid to Afghanistan today. They will be using... the same supplies we gave them 20 years ago.



On a final note, I would like to add to GRIFT's comment about the "Blame Canada" song. I used to be the biggest Canadian basher around (Rogue can attest) However, Canada gained a huge deal of respect with their efforts to help us in this. I have not made a Canadian joke since, and I hope I won't be making any for a long time.

Ace, how did I forget about the Berlin Air Drop of goods.  Good catch.

The big differences between what can happen now, and what happened to the US in Vietnam, and the USSR in Afghanistan are:

• The other superpower will not be backing them this time.  The USSR and China backed Vietnam with supplys and weapons.  The US backed Afghans in the same way.  Not to mention training, intellegence, etc.
  
• This will not be a half-assed attempt.  The public is behind this campaign... and will send in enough support to get the job done (whatever the job is).
  

Now, that said, I still say that it is the responsibility of the US to ensure that we do not sink to the level of terrorists ourselves..... the wholesale slaughter of innocents must be avoided.  Will there be some, without a doubt.  But to be proud of being an American, we have to make that as small a number as possible.  Let's face it, the average Afghan person, could probably care less.... and just wants to stay out of the way.  We should let them.

And finally, my blood cries out for vengence and justice as much as the next guys.... maybe more.  I just know there is none to be found in snuffing out the lives of those that had nothing to do with it.
[/color]

Fuck you Ace.  A human life is a human life.  Nearly any other country in the world (save canada and memberrs of the EU) would rather sacrifice 100 Americans to save 50 of their soldiers.  Nicely done with your racism there.

The west berlin airlift is a totally different issue.  We were supporting what were essentially our citezans, not propagandaizing another sovreign nation.

Douf:  I did give a solution, exhaust our diplomatic options first, and simultainiously aquire more intelligence.  you may have been confused by the diction... I used "exahust" because im not to optimistic that it will work.  But no one elses plans seem to be that reasonable either.  

No one expects the terrorists to surrender, but enough pressure on the taliban could force them to turn the terrorists over, at least usama.

Ace/grift:  The Afgans don't need a superpower to back them, they have the terrain.  Why do you think hitler never attacked switzerland?  Because he liked chocolate, watches, and knives?  No, the answer was that the Swiss had the ability to defend every mountain pass the nazi's attacked.  An attack by THE premier army of 39, 40, and 41 against a tiny neutral nation armed  with rifles  would have failed, or if Hitler was lucky, successful at tremendous cost.

The terrain is the same, the discrepency in manpower and technology, comperable.  An attack by the premeir army of 99, 00, and 01 will  no doubt be successful, but only in oxidizing the middle eastern people against us.  The cost will be tremendous, and yet, there is no way we can wipe every terrorist out.  In fact, our involvement will no doubt breed MORE afgan terrorists.

I'm sorry if I compare this to Vietnam so much, but the resemblence is striking.  You can fight a nation, but not a people... and yet that is where we are headed.

Surely if America wants to tackle terrorism and any one who aids terrorists in any way it should first look internally and stop the funding to the IRA, something which seems to have been kept fairly quiet.

Also [sorry if has been mentioned] bombing Afghanistan would make any difference they havnt got anything of value anyway, The dropping supplies is a good idea but wouldnt work.

Anyway just my little bit to add.

Bah u are all blood thirsty idiots and NO INCH better than those bin laden fukcers and co! One one side u cry for the victims of WTC on the other side u are racial slurs who say: American are "more valuable" humans than others. Bah - since i read what americans "demand", and what Bush says i have lost even more respect for that "great" nation. Listen:

Kill or harm my aunt (76 years old) in kabul and u have another anti-taliban afghan against you:

ME!

regards idiots (mauti these forums are "poisoned" for me - everytime i log into our own website i get abused by those shithead comments!)

i hate the taliban but if u go to afghanistan and kill innocent afghans there we will have a "fair" payoff for every single civilian that u killed. afghan fighters need no fuel, no ammunition and no food. what they need they get from their foes. a dead foe has anything u will need in afghanistan till the next firefight will be.
u can bomb our civilians like the russians did (for years). go kill even more of our children and war-widows, or their men who cant feed their families then. There will always be afghans left to take "Infinite justice" on every foreign agressor there. We will NOT allow americans or any other "wannabe napoleon" to harm our people by cowardish mass-bombing raids like in bosnia. If there will be dead children and old people we will kill those murderers - no difference if they are americans, taliban, europeans or other asia-states. Then u can expect our infinitive justice! bet on that.

Afghans will always fight man vs man. Afghans didnt use terrorist tactics against the UDSSR the WHOLE war against them (more than 10 years). I dont know what bin laden fukcers men will do in the meantime to the U.S. and others - but AFGHANS wont use terror even when the world start to terrorize the afghan people again!

lol - i just say: somalia

loud notes may be only 14 years old but when i red his opening post i really thought: wow man - this guy should write comments for the newspapers. its amazing how clear loud sees all these issues and how  perfect he analyzed the whole situations. respect my friend!

but u OTHERS(!!!) who just talk about "invasion", b-52 somewhat bombers, cruise missles etc. dont know NOTHING about the region, its people and its history.
Why? Cuz u are overweighted fat americans - who dont get a good enough education to check out anything that takes place 10 miles away from your neighborhood. the only thing u are interested is waving your flag, cheering to whatever your president says and watching CNN (if there is no sit-com on another channel).

Europe? Bah - its true. They just talk and do NOTHING. Suddently sanctions get lifted from one day to the other, UN mandats are not longer needed, police rights are getting updated (big brother is watching u), army forces get financial boosts, U.S. can check out EVERY police computer in whole europe. Europe really is a pile of shit (austria too). Tony Blair that monkeyhead cant even do anything about the IRA Bombings (Terror too) but blows himself to the size of a big baloon whenever he notices a TV camera nearby. Same with the Spains (ETA), Italians (red army fraction), germans (neonazis) and even the americans (michigan militia, and several other right weighted paramilitant groups).

By the way: Maybe Switzerland (neutral) should bomb out the U.S. facilitys where they are doing experiments with "Anthrax" a nerv-gas wich is one of the worst chemo-biologic mass destruction weapon ever. (Forbidden too since the seventies - but lol - why should americans care? its just for "self defence".)

HEY - I AM REALLY TIRED TO TALK WITH U ON AND ON without having ANY positive effects on what u think.
I will not post much anymore about all this cut it seems senceless to argue with those 75% of u americans who claimed they still vote for an military(!) engagement in afghanistan EVEN if this would cost SEVERAL THOUSAND dead civilians! Vapor is not even allowed to receive the damn birthday cd-rom and video via airmail cuz of his parents and here he acts as the heroic american fighter. u little boy: eat some vitamines and grow up a little. lol - pathetic.

greets *DAMNs and my few "real" friends on GR!

Ok, first let me clear up something. I meant to say sacrifice 100 Afghan soldiers. Yes, this still may be racist, but you can kiss my patriotic ass. *Cue overtly patriotic rant* Our soldiers have been fighting against tyranny, oppression, and terror for longer than our great nation has existed. Men have gone and died for our great nation, for your right to come here and spew all the anti-American bullshit you want without fear of repercussions. These men include my grandfather, my grandfather who had to occupy Japan with his wife and 4 children (2 born on the base there). You want to tell me that we shouldn't have nuked Japan so that he wouldn't have to fight and risk his life anymore? These men also include my uncle (the firefighter) You want to tell me that I'm wrong to think that his life is more important than some communist Vietnamese bitch. I would definitely love to tally how many lives he has saved since. Now, you want to tell me that a soldier who either supports Osama Bin Laden, the Taliban, or both is just as valuable as an American soldier who stands for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Fuck no. These men are out there fighting to protect us, fight against injustice, and guarantee our way of life. If you don't want to give them the respect they deserve, I suggest you go try living in Afghanistan.




Another thing. I have never advocated intentional killings of Afghanistan civilians. However, if we are forced to go to war, everyone must understand that innocents will be lost. I know you may not like it, but it's a fact. The only thing we can do is try our best to minimize these losses.

***Timeout. I am watching CNN right now, and I just heard that they changed the name from Operation Infinite Justice to Operation Enduring Freedom because it "offended some Muslim groups". Fucking politically correct pussies. If those fucking activist groups have a problem with dealing out the justice those terrorist bastards deserve, they deserve to share their fate. Now back to your regularly scheduled ranting.***

If we go to war, the safety of our boys has to come first. Afghan civvies second. You may call me racist. pigheaded, or whatever you want. I would just like you to personally go up to my uncle and tell him you disagree with this before you start bitching. Just make sure it's not while he is on his shift, he has a pretty damn important job.




What next. Ahhh, Vietnam comparisons. GRIFT makes two damn good points. Also, Mort, don't even compare us to Hitler in any way shape or form:
A) We aren't trying to take over the world and institute a Nazi regime.
B) Our technology is so insanely superior it's ridiculus. They may have terrain, but as long as we have a slight clue where they are, we can strike from a distance. Wanna know what equipment they got over there? It's older than me; it's that same shit we gave them at the start of the 80's. We will control the skies to our pleasing, and give any air support we want. Even if it comes down to man to man combat, our soldiers are more disciplined, better trained, and superiorly equipped.




Mort, don't give me that shit that they will turn Osama Bin Laden over. You and I both know that ain't happening. And we have exhausted diplomacy. We sent them proof (If you don't believe me, do some *good* research and find out for yourself) that Bin Laden was involved; we don't have Bin Laden in our hands. Bye bye diplomacy.




Bander, don't even try to call me an un-educated, overweight American. I have probably read and seen more about this subject and history in general than almost anyone here. The overweight one is classic too. If you got the balls/stupidity, you can come play some water polo with me. I'm used to going up against guys who have 2 inches and 35 lbs of muscle on me. I doubt you would be a problem. And hell yeah we wave our flag. You ever think that it's because our flag stands and has always stood for ideals greater than any other nation in the world? You ever wonder why any good American will do ANYTHING to protect our flag from even touching the ground? I went home to weekend after the attacks. I saw my grandfather's flag, and that has to be one of the most inspirational things I have ever seen. It sent chills down my spine.




Finally, before you all go accusing the US of bullshit (supporting the IRA, having anthrax labs) I want some damn good proof. And no, the CDC doesn't count as a goddamn anthrax lab.

I'm with Ace on this one.

No one meant or even said that American lives were more important than everyone elses. The general sentiment is that though we don't want any people to die and we don't condone killing innocent people, we would rather have a few ACCIDENTAL deaths of innocent people then another WTC incident.

To be clear, we would prefer that NO innocent people got hurt, but realistically, that probably won't happen.

No one is going out and trying to kill civilians, but should we go to war, people will die both good and bad. It's a shame, but it will happen.

And when it comes down to it, I would rather live with the guilt of a FEW innocent ?deaths regardless of their nationality that resulted in a major win over terrorism, than the pain and suffering of losing THOUSANDS of people, REGARDLESS OF NATIONALITY.

This isn't America vs. terrorism. THIS IS THE WORLD VS. TERRORISM. And as usual, the US will play\ a major part in this fight against terrorism and will get all the blame for any mishaps.

--------

Bander, fuck you. Your rantings are such bullshit.

You criticize people for making derogitory comments about Afghanistan citizens and then call Americans fat lazy assholes.

You talk as if none of us Americans ever have a hard time. You talk as though we walk through life.

Well, I am motherfucking hard times. I've been sick on and off for 4 years. I've gone through excruciating pain and had it last for months at a time. I've gone through more suffering in four years than you will in your entire life.

Don't give me any of your shit. Take your rhetoric and go preach to some American hating Europeans. Then shove it up your ass. Take a walk outside. Play with your friends.

Over here we'll be mourning the loss of thousands of lives, donating money, blood, and our time. Then, we'll be working to rid the world of terrorists.

I must say that Bander, blackhand, and Ace all have valid points and well written opinions.  However, the way you all bash each other silly is utterly ridiculous.  I feel like a kindergarten teacher here....grow up y'all!

When I started this thread, I just wanted to hear some of your opinions, not to lose respect for any of you.  While I feel some of you are clearly in the wrong, isn't the point for us all to learn and better grow as people....

Take a look at these many viewpoints which have gathered nowhere else in the world.  This is a unique place to discuss your opinions, so lets keep it that way.

Perhaps we are all wrong, but isn't this what makes democracy so wonderful?

Bander speaks as an Afgan, a unique perspective I haven't seen anywhere else, and he is priveleged enough to be able to view US policy without blind nationalism to cloud his view

Blackhand apparently speaks with the voice of a physically disabled patriot, who values country over life.  We all have something to learn from him.

Ace shares a similar patriotism, and gives a voice to the rightist view of things.

Mort is the classic 'armchair liberal' but his ideas are credible and his theory well-based.

And where am I?  I try to offer my own brand of opinions, but I find it striking how little agreement we, an unlikely band of several strangers, can reach.  How will the whole world be able to reach consensus either?


-Grifter I didn't forget you I just have to go now

::RANT MODE ENGAGED::

Mort,
If you think that: "No, the answer was that the Swiss had the ability to defend every mountain pass the nazi's attacked." is true, you better read a bit more history.  Or at least watch more of the History Channel.  The Nazi's had oh, so many reasons not to invade Switzerland.....

• Swiss were neutral... and posed no threat.
  
• Swiss mercinaries were feard throughout Europe.
  
• Hitler was fighting a war on many fronts, and was more concerned with keeping neutral countries (like the Swiss and Americans at the time) out of the war.
  
• This list could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

Now, looking at the Nazi's, trying to spread out from the middle of Europe, it's easy to understand why they'd want to avoid areas where the terrain was unfavorible for them, and fighting wasn't necessary.  

Ok, that said, we are now looking at the world around Afghanistan pointing in.  America wouldn't have to worry about Russia invading through Alaska, would it?  Or Japan attacking Hawaii again (look out Civ!!)?  Nope.  America, NATO, and everyone else involved can focus their full attention on the problem at hand.  That's something new, that hasn't happened very often.  Not at Vietnam, not when the USSR was invading Afghanistan.  

Bander,
my respect for you is starting to slip my friend.  When you first posted here, you made some very good posts (like Loudnotes) about how the average Afghan isn't behind this, thought it was wrong, and that holding those people responsible was not right either.  And I agreed with all those points..... but when you start slandering America, comparing us with Napoleon, calling us fat, overweight, and undereducated....... well, that's the talk of children.  Do you really think I'm a fat, stupid, ugly American?  If you do, I pity you.  Take some of your own and Loudnote's (and mine as well!) advise, and let some of the anger go before you do something wrong.  You want to talk about all the things you don't know about American history (only a few hundred years....), we can talk all day about the gorillia fighting that went on in AMERICA hundreds of years ago..... when different tribes of Native Americans fought on BOTH sides of Many WARS here.....  So, let's not get on any high horses about what history we know, or don't know..... ok?

As for America being defeated by Afghanistan...... well, in that decade of fighting the USSR.... we (Americans) GAVE YOU WEAPONS.  You think those stinger missles that were used to shoot down helicopters were "found on the battlefield"?  Considering that the USSR doesn't make them?  We Americans started supplying AK-47's and ammo not 13 days after the USSR invaded.  Maybe you should read more yourself.....

Even more..... the LAST time America WENT TO WAR, Japan and Germany were many decades to recover.  America has not declared WAR since then.  You really think that Afghanistan has more of a chance then Japan did?  Ever think of what a few Nukes would do?  After all... isn't that how we ended the LAST WAR AMERICA WAS IN?

And, isn't this more then America??  Isn't this NATO, plus a few dozen other countries that have had enough of TERRORISM??  

::RANT MODE OFF::

Now, all that said, I'm not in favor of killing any Afghan's that are not ACTIVLY HARBORING TERRORISTS.  Let's face it, there's a good chance that some of the terrorists were here in Dearborn, Michigan.... does that mean we should Bomb Dearborn?? (shut up you guys that don't want me on GR anymore).  I only want the guilty punished!  I know that innocents will die, because they already have, and they always do.  I just don't want anyone thinking it's right!  I don't want anyone thinking that killing Afghan's wholdsale is ok... that their lives are any less valuable then our own.  The blood of innocents will be spent to save the lives of other innocents  in the long run.  My points are that it shouldn't be thought of in any disrespect (which abounds here), and it should always be kept at the minimum..... or we are no better then those we call Terrorists.



[/color]

First of all, I think it's safe to assume that NO ONE here wants innocent people to die, but at the same time we all want Bin Laden captured, just we each have different opinions on how to get him.

grift, that's what i've been trying to say, but I just couldn't seem to put it eloquently. Thank you for speaking intelligently.

loud, while your attempts to keep the peace both on and off this forum are admirable, i think you're missing something. What it is, I don't know. Maybe you're more optimistic than realistic (which in the long run will be a great characteristic). I don't mean to play the age factor here, but I know that when I was fourteen I didn't understand international tragedies to the extent that i do now.

Regardless, your ideas are thoughtful and you're infinitely more intelligent than many of the older members of the forum.

However, I am not blinded by "national patriotism." I have many complaints about the USA, but as far as this tragedy goes, I think the US has handled it admirably. Remember, though we talk about war and missles, we have yet to do anything in the means of warfare.

As for Mort having credible ideas, you obviously don't know him well enough. He is completely jaded and bordering on insane. but that's why we love him.

And just so you know I'm not disabled in a normal way, a condition rather than a disease. It's not that bad, well except for a 2 month long migraine and that whole inability to do anything for long periods. ;)

Bander, The USA's demands of the Taliban are completely just. Maybe you didn't realize this, but the Afghanistan government has WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY harbored terrorists. We ask them to help turn over Bin Laden, a terrorist linked, if not behind the WTC attack and they refuse.

If we go to war with Afghanistan, it's because the Taliban refused to help capture an truly evil man who was a threat not only the US but to the WORLD.

I think your views would be much different if someone you knew was killed in the WTC attack or better yet, if someone you knew was killed in a terrorist attack in your country.

Thanks Blackie,

Sorry for the Rant.... but stupid people always piss me off.  The racist assholes that want to whipe a country off the map piss me off.... the hypocrites that don't believe it's right for people to express their views (just because they are anti-american) really piss me off.  And now Bander, who was speaking with reason and logic before, has stooped down to the name calling insults and stereotyping too.  

I mean, I don't agree with everything you (Blackie) or Ace has said..... it's opiniion.  I have mine, you have yours, and every asshole out there has his.  The difference is, it's informed opinion, expressed with intelligence.  So, while I don't agree with Ace that an American life is worth more then any other.... that's ok.  It's his opinion, and he's not a "stupid, fat, uneducated american looking for the next Burger King" because of it.  And while I wish I was more of a Budhest (in terms of respecting all life as sacred) like Loud, I'm not.  I respect Loud for expressing the more unpopular view that I agree with in point, but am not a good enough human being to follow up with.  What I don't respect is the name calling or the "Yeah, but what you did before is worse" stuff.  Everyone here knows that EVERY country has done some pretty shitty things at one time or another.  That HISTORY is no excuse for the actions of the present.  And I truely believe that justice must be served!  And Justice is BLIND.... so if that means when America does wrong, Justice should get her bite of our ass too.  I just don't think we're wrong in this case yet.  Talk is cheap, all we've done so far is try to get to the bottom of WHO should be blamed... eh?

I have nothing to add to what i said before. Ace u are a nationalist and if u would have grown up during 1938 - 1945 here some facists would have had their pure joy with your thinking i guess (its easy to replace a flag and wave with another one).

U are at the same damn point as the fukcing nazis have been once: We are the number 1 race/nation and all other nations are just nations with degenerated underlings - in the "partisan"(!) wars the german used the same "tactics" as your stupid (aces) arguments are:
When they killed a german soldier - they shot 3 of their civilians. Saying: "This is un-avoidable to show them who has the power here now." - reminds me on somewhat.

Ace and the other (for my taste 100%) morons:
Typical American: U always try to claim ALL victories on world that happen to be YOURS. (like the capture of ENGIMA - but it was the brits who captured it!) U say u gave us afghans the weapons to defeat the UDSSR? LOL. U may think so cuz u are "conditioned" from ur goverment to avoid "independend thinking". So when always the superiour U.S. aided the afghans against the U.S. answer me this: Where have the U.S. been when afghan rebels fought out the Brithis Expeditions Corps 2 times during the colonial times?

And on the end of your statements - when u claim u have the better "tools of destruction" (as i said u always do in my previous post - tnx for prooving my point) u turn into such cowards that the only thing thats left to say for u is: If we cant win on ground we will nuke em.

THIS is as bad thinking as nazi shit has been i say.

U ask me if i would NOT have dropped atomic-bombs on nagasaki and hiroshima? u ask if i would NOT have burned old people, shool kids, housewives, nurses, people in the hospitals, mothers, sisters, daughters, sons, uncles, aunts, grandfathers and grandmothers? U ask if i would NOT have bring stravation and radiation to those people? U ask if i would NOT have killed thousands and thousand innocent civilians in japan in the end of war?

My answer is: YES - i would NOT have done that shit.

All of u who feel personal offended by my "fat, uneducated" statement: Okay you CAN feel offended. Cuz i knew when i posted this, that only guys where these attributes fit on would take it personal. Gotcha morons.

Grift and the others here who waste my once so beloved forums: Go to hell with your advices to me how to "discuss" here. I dont care what people like u think about me - u are not the kind of people i wanna have props from. and i dont care if i loose your respect - i spit on your "respect" - u are unable to respect human life at all - so i dont need your fukcing idiot respect at all.  

blackhand u still didnt check that the taliban are NOT the afghan goverment. lol - he doesnt check that i am AGAINST the taliban (much longer than u clowns even know they exist). dont drag dirth on me and my people by putting us into the same box like those fukcers!!!
we will kill bin laden for our won reasons if we get him (bet ur hairy asses on that) - and we will kill any other murderer of afghan civilians the same way.

And one more about the american "fight of freedom":

Saudi Arabia - a worse regime that violates the human rights on and on, Bin Laden comes from there: Goverment installed by the U.S.

Masharif - pakistans dictator: Bush?s Whore (and an asshole), supported the Taliban along with the U.S. (go and check some old washington post articles from last year) is a military dictator who overthrowed the regular goverment by force.

Kuwait: Founded by the Brits after the colonial times as an independend "kingdom" where no democracy will be found too. (but who cares: america gets its oil - so who cares about human rights. lol u are so sick)

Irak: Saddam still there. U.S. and Nato had possibilitys to get that swine and bring him to justice too. For some odd reasons the U.S. and Nato stopped their war "for justice & freedom" there - and left Saddam rule one there (wtf?????) - the Irakis will be very "grateful" i think.
Also the Curds who followed the U.S. calls to rise up against Saddam and who now pay for their attemts. (left all alone by the U.S. now). But yeah - bomb the civilians is always a great idea - cuz "WE CAN do it" - sick.)

Vietnam: Tnx for all the mess

Kuba: The american "holy and good" goverment admitted already that they sabotaged various food programs and deliverys to kuba to weaken the support for castro during the crisis. They added lotta sanctions till Kuba was on the ground economically -then they put their fingers on them and said: Look what communism has done to poor Kuba. Snakes.

Cambotcha: ???

Panama: ???

Ah yes: Yugoslavia. I love the peace u brought there: Serbs still run around and claim they are "the poor" and misused people and there where "no massacres done by serbs" during the war. Macedonia falls apart and Kosovo still is a dead-ground.

Africa: Good plan - bring marines there to stabilize the area - let them get photographed while leaving the boats. Then order em back ASAP as soon a rebel fires a shot with his gun there. (i always wonder what happes to the "friends" of the U.S. after they are left behind wherever they "helped").

Bah - i am trying to explain things to some morons again but i should already know they have nothing in their brain than a (i must say it IS beautiful) flag (uuuhhhh kill civilians is NECASSERY but our FLAG will NEVER touch the ground - uhuuu!!! wow "the patriot". disgusting!). One last question: How many americans die every year cuz of these totally mad "fire arms laws" (means: want a gun? - go buy a gun). How many americans die cuz of their social situation (black people, social victims) every year? I agree: Terrorism must be defeated (by anti Terror POLICE Squads) but if u re brabbeling about "infinite justice" u should bring it to your own country too.

caution: This statement is refering to the "discussion" points here about "what afghans deserve" for various reasons. I am not defending bin laden fukcer or those "walking death" taliban occupants. But i defend the honour of my people against ur moody american nationalism and your permanent threatenings about what will happen to "the afghans".

THIS is not a discussion like we had ever before in these  Forums. THIS time i will remember the assholes and divide the "morons" from the ones "who are equipped with a working brain" on GR.  I dont give a fukc on being friends with people who cant even look over the ream of their coffee cup.

If there is a god somewhere he will take care bout the poor victims of the WTC and OTHER places on this planet where INNOCENT people died (and die).
And if it is so i bet: they all SPIT on u and will not need the blessings of bloodthirsty people like u who arent any better than the asshole bin laden.

warmongers, nationalists, little wheenies
go to hell and stay there a long time pls.

tnx

P.S.: Mauti u must make me my own forum. i cant enter this one anymore without getting mad and sad at the same time by reading those crappy shit here everywhere. Please dude: make it like the Grey Death forums but i will make a r6 flag for it. and when done DONT link it to this "poisoned ground" here please.

Bander:  The Taliban have been aided by the US not only in weaponry but also intelligence, it was the CIA [someone may correct me] who pointed the Taliban to the location of Russian arms dumps when they retreated.

Dont get me wrong I totally agree that the Afghan people in large should not be punished or harmed, only those that hrbour terrorists and terrorists themselves.

And yes Americans [not all] are loud, full of themselves, patriotic [isnt everyone proud of their nationality], the US government has made some situations worse rather than help, but think of what they have done in terms of quality of life and what they stand for. And [Im presuming you are not in Afghanistan] if it wasnt for countries like the US youd be stuck in your homeland with a worse standard of living.

Now you can call all you like because I can just laugh it off.

Oh and the IRA have been funded for years by American groups, thats why Clinton took a trip over their to stop attacks, if they had never been involved would he have gone???

Finally someone who is "discussing" here. ty your post was really an exception. Okay: Its also true (when i have to say the U.S. supported the Taliban) that the U.S. gave the afghan Mudjaheddin Stingers and i guess also other stuff (except those stingers it was as ace said: they just gave the afghans some crappy old weaps they had to get rid off, and where enjoying to see the "evil" UDSSR having major troubles. This i dont really call "helpful" when we now look at those Taliban Bastards who are tyranning the whole afghan population in their controlled provences).

One IMPORTANT point (for all who should be interested): There where NO Taliban at all when the Mudjaheddin once fought against the Russian Agressors! The Taliban Movement appeared in the middle of the 90thies where the Soviets had retreated already. They "disarmed" the population by hiding behind their corrupted face of islam and told em they will bring peace and savety to the afghans (after 15 years of war!). Once they had the pop. disarmed they started to show their true face (but Pakistan and the U.S. still kept supporting em, cuz no one on this world gave a fukc on the afghans and their sufferings. We had just been useful idiots and chess-figures in another stupid cold-war conflict between U.S. and the former UDSSR. Btw.: Official US Spokesmen also said that was true. Cuz: "If we would have supported the North Alliance we would have been on the same side as Iran & Russia at this time" - so that was ONE of the reasons why they supported the Taliban. Clever eh? So thats why my thankfulness is not that amazing huge.)

Another fact: No afghan i talked to ever heared from a "bin laden" fighting against the russian during their occupation. I bet he was hiding his saudi-ass somewhere behind a rock and came out when they told him its over. Its annoying and makes me mad when now the fucking Taliban are called the liberators of afghanistan. Most Taliban are foreingers (and crazy idiots), they cant fight like real afghans, their leadership is weak, and their morale is a fake. If the Pakistani ISI and the U.S. would have had stopped their support to them earlier we would have already dealed with em. U will see in the news the next days what i mean. FINALLY we get enough support to deal with them one for once! We "true" afghans will avenge the death of our Shah Ahmed Massood AND the innocent victims in the U.S. Terror attacks! There is a reason why Bin Laden Asshole might really try to flee somewhere else now. He thought his assassination on Massood would desperate the Northern Alliance. But he just signed his own deathwish. But same fate will hit everyone who dares to use the lives of innocent afghan civilians for their dirthy "game" of power, wealth and sickness.

i must go back to work now - i could post endless here damn world has gone mad and people who where stupid before went dangerous crazy now. god (allah, or however u call the "almighty" is either on vacation or he doesnt care much lately) -

cheers

After hearing Bander's comments, that are hypocritical, racist, and most importantly idiotic, I can only say one thing:

I hope a missle intended for Bin Laden's camp gets redirected to your house.

Not only have I lost a lot of respect for the DAMN clan because of Bander, I've also lost respect for Afghanistan. I just hope that not all Afghanistans are as idiotic as Bander.

Not once did anyone imply that ALL Afghanistans were like Bin Laden, but we certainly did say that Afghanistan should not ever knowingly harbor a terrorist and do little to caapture him.

I only have problems with two groups of people in Afghanistan, the terrorists, and the anti-americans, who always cite the mistakes made by the US, but never mention ALL THE GOOD THAT THE USA HAS DONE FOR THE WORLD!

Bander's hatred of Americans is so typical. First and foremost, he's jealous. Secondly, he talks about all the mistakes USA has made over the years.

Well, at least we tried to do something good. At least we're pro-active. Whenever a country is hit by a national tragedy, the US sends over people and supplies. Whenever there is an evil threat to the world, the US is always the first to step in and try to resolve the issue.

I'm not saying the US hasn't made mistakes, because it has, but at least it DID SOMETHING.

Because of our pro-active nature, we always get the blame for any mishaps. We are hated by people everywhere.

In the end though, it's worth it. Because we tried and many times suceeded in maiking the world a better place, which is more than I can say for most countries.

As Vonnegut put it, he liked to have this more than anything on his tombstone, "He tried."

Blackhand, you suck. Leave something for me to say next time. (Except the missile comment. I think that went just a little too far) Bander, I would respond to many of the "points" you made, but the majority of it is falsified bullshit. US supporting the Taliban? What shit have you been smoking. Also, don't think that I am "a fat uneducated slob" because I took offense to that comment. I take offense to anyone trying to bash Americans in general just because they are ignorant, jealous bitches. BTW, I got an SAT of 1490, GPA always over 4.0, and an engineering scholarship to USC. I also got offers from water polo coaches at top level Ivy League schools. Kiss my educated, athletic ass.


Yes, I am fiercely patriotic, and I take that as a compliment. I love America more than you can imagine, but don't even fucking try to compare me to Hitler. I am not saying "Go burn all Afghans because we are a superior race". I said I would rather sacrifice the lives of the supporters of these terrorists and the Taliban rather than the lives of Americans. Might be racist, but I sure as hell value the lives of those fighting for freedom and liberty more than those fighting for terror and tyranny.


Finally, I bet many of you have seen this lately, but I think Bander and any other American bashers here need to see it. This was written by a Canadian in the 70's.

?America: The Good Neighbor.

?Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

?"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.?

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward as to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.?

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.?

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.?

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon-not once, but several times-and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at.?

Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.?

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.?

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.?

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around.

?They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."?

Stand proud, America!"

I stand proud, just as the rest of my country has done. Bander, can you tell me the same?

ace and blackie, you may take offense at some of Bander's anti-american postings, however, I believe you lack a certain perspective necessary to even begin to appreciate them.  Don't get me wrong, I love America just as much as you, but I do not do so blindly, I am patriotic despite our nation's faults.

Have either of you ever been to Europe and read a European newspaper?  I suggest you do this before you attempt to criticize any criticism of America.  You will understand far better the other viewpoints in this issue.  Why do you think Bush's conference in Europe earlier this year was considered so ineffective?  He lacks the perspective of an outsider, having never been outside the US before this year

If you analyze what Bander said and go beyond the inflammatory rhetoric, nothing he said was untrue.  I suggest you rethink your condemnation.

Loud, sigh. Please stop acting like you?re so novel and your perspective is infinitely clearer than Ace?s and mine.

Read my posts. I never once said the US was perfect. I agree with many of the points brought up where America has made mistakes. The US is not perfect. I won?t die for my country if it?s not a cause I believe in. However, I will defend my country against unfounded, anti-American, bullshit comments.

I?ve been to Europe. I?ve lived in different cultures. I can see when the USA has made a grave mistake. Tell me though, when did America make a mistake during this recent international tragedy. What did we do to deserve the slaughter of THOUSANDS of lives, both American and foreign? What did we do to deserve comments such as Bander?s that MIGHT hold some validity, but are too riddled with anti-American propaganda and insults?

The answer is nothing. Regardless of whatever mistakes the USA has made in the past and yes there have been some big ones, we, the world, did not deserve this. I shouldn?t have to read a news story about a mother who lost her son or the other way around, then come to the forum to here Bander insult me, members of this forum, and The United States Of America.

Any with any class whatsoever, would not rant on about the US?s idiocy (which is funny, considering the technology used in posting on this forum was pioneered and still dominated by American business?) and insult us at this time.

Criticism, I don?t mind. Personal attacks, racial slurs, I do mind.

So why did I say what I did about a missile hitting Bander?s home?

To prove a point. Ace implied that I was wrong. You implied that as well. Our patriotism has its limits. The comment was not right and you and I were able to recognize that.

Bander is unable to recognize the injustice of his comments. He condemns Ace for valuing American lives over other nations, yet it is obvious Bander could care less about Americans. He could care less about this whole situation. He condemns some for bashing Afghanis, then turns around and bashes Americans.

Maybe those last comments were a bit harsh, but I have NO reason to believe that he is different and I am wrong about him. I can only know Bander through his posts, and based on those posts I can only conclude that Bander is, well, an idiot who occasionally reads a newspaper.

He compares us to Hitler, yet just like Hitler, he can?t see how much of a hypocrite he is being. If he were truly so anti-American, he wouldn?t own a computer. He wouldn?t use the Internet. He wouldn?t go to the movie theater. He wouldn?t speak English. He?s just dumb, confused, and jealous. He hates me because of my nationality. Who?s like Hitler now?

----

Note 1: Bush is an idiot. He?s handled the current situation well, but is not at all what would call an ideal choice for the presidency (the results of the election reflect on this). That?s why his European campaign failed.

Note 2: Loud. You are no less blinded by patriotism then I am. The difference is that I will point out Bander?s idiocy. You will not. Again, I?m not saying all of what he said is idiotic, but a lot of it is.

Note 3: All of this is based on Bander?s posts. That is all the material and knowledge I have of him and until he proves otherwise, he?ll be infinitely lower than Romulus, peekay, and all the idiots.

Reading through these forums, I am deeply dismayed. I largely agree with Ace, Grifter and Blackhand and have to say one thing, SHAME ON YOU BANDER. You are a hopeless unfortunate soul who is like a race horse - you have you blinders on and can only see one P.O.V. Sure, I sympathize with you when you are upset that you think that all Americans want the blood of Afghans running in the streets but you are terribly misguided.

A) comparing the U.S. to Nazi Germany was the dumbest thing I have ever heard of in my life. Sure, we consider ourselves superior, only because we are. The Nazi's went so far as to call themselves "aryans" and slaughter the innocent. Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt the United States the most diversified country on this planet?

B) The Afghan citizens better be praying to their God, (Allah or whoever they believe in) that a target is not located by their homes. With Three Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups positioned to attack and heavy bombers ready in Turkey, there will be blood shed. I can only hope that we don't kill many civilians, but as mentioned above, in every war, there will be innocent casualties, over 6000+ Americans so far...

C) Bander, if you are truly an Afghan of the Northern Alliance, shut your fucking fly trap. You should praise the U.S., not bash them. By the time we are done bombing the hell out of the Taliban army and the Al Qaeda bases, the rightful gov't will soon be back in power. Instead, you rant your mouth like a typical peace loving bitch, calling for diplomacy and what not. It is time for action, diplomacy is OVER.

D) thank you Ace for bringing up the patriots fighting for their country, for I have dealt with a similar experience but worse - my relatives never came back from war. Grandfather KIA at Midway, Uncle killed in a P.O.W. camp in Pyongyang, and a cousin who was killed in Vietnam. I will never let the freedom they fought and died for slip away because of acts of cowardice. The U.S. military has always fought for Freedom and Justice, and those who say otherwise, i say FUCK YOU.
-Peace out

Blackhand has said this too, and I would like to affirm it: America is not perfect. But at the same time, I would like to point out that it's still the greatest nation on earth. Where else could the son of an immigrant have the oppurtunity to become the leader of the free world? Where else could the daughter of a low income single mother have the oppurtunity to get a world class education. For hundreds of years, people have aspired to come to America for these reasons and more. Today, we are the most diverse nation in the world. I am not blinded my patriotism - I am empowered by it.

Loud, Bander's posts are littered with falsitiies. For example, "when i have to say the U.S. supported the Taliban" The US never support nor recognized the Taliban. There are many others, but it would take too long to point 'em all out. Also, I was in France this summer and read French newspapers and watched French TV. So I have a pretty good idea of some other viewpoints. For the most part, the other countries are highly jealous of our power and position. I think the EU is totally hilarious; they are essentially trying to make themselves into a United States of Europe so to speak. Imitation is the highest form of flattery. As far as Bush goes, I don't believe he or anyone else could have handled this situation any better. Every day I am more and more proud for having stuck by him since the beginning.

Postmaster, I am so very sorry to here that. I am lucky enough that none of my family members were killed (especially my grandfather or else I wouldn't be here today) Sadly, you are not alone. Many other Americans have lost loved ones who served our country valiantly. As you know very well, it is sickening to think that the freedom, liberty, and justice these men gave their lives for is being abused today. All these people bashing America and it's ideals are like flag burners on steroids and then some. My first and strongest impulse is to knock their face in with a 2x4.

As I did before, I must end with:
I stand proud, just as the rest of my country has done. Bander, can you tell me the same?

I think that maybe this thread is getting a little out of hand, I think that people should have been carefull in what they had said on what is a subject that has affected not only the US but also many countries throughout the world, how many people from the Europe and Asia died in the attack?

Everyone is agreed on the fact that a single group and their helpers/defenders has caused this and that they alone should be punished not innocents, I think collateral damage is bollocks buts thats out of our hands and up to our governments soldiers. Saying that if I had to be classed as collateral damage to save my friends and family Id accept that.

Oh and Blackhand the computer was created in Manchester UK and the English came from............. England :)

Sorry just winding people up now.

Anyway heres to getting the wankers involved and everyone else being fine.

Blackhand: I dont hate u cuz u are american - i just hate you cuz u are a violent - brainless - nationalist, whose stupid comments arent really worth arguing with.
Send me your funny missle - yeah - u clown, this is a typical reaction of militant assholes (even when he meant it as "joke") when they run out of arguments: Violence!

Ace: U are just what i said. U can deny for yourself that the U.S. supported the Taliban but that wont change the facts. And people who refuse to see the truth are always sticking together their phantasy-truth then.

U and your gang of  warheads try (again) to move my comments to an "anti-american" spot. LOL. This is really cheap. U ignore when i say most of my relatives are americans (afghan americans) since more than 30 years or born there (cali) - cuz it seems u dont see them as americans too but as "Stans". You cant devide one wrongdoing from another. You claim u are on the side of justice but only call for bombs and when it comes to OTHER countries killing civilians suddenly is "not avoidable" (at the same time u claim there must be war to AVENGE other civilian deaths).

LOL - one of u apes said im like a race horse which is just running on the track and ignoring everything going on aside. And i would just "sometimes" read  the news.
If u ask Mauti he will back that i am ALWAYS informed very well about recent political ongoings and due to my huge inetrest to politics i can compare actual issues with past historical happenings. (At last i try).

Listen u "heroes":
Its easy for u to hide behind the whole bunch of anti-moslemic people here on "my" forums or on GR cuz u are not alone - one warmonger is backing the comments of the other (when i deliver political facts, you bash em aside and answer some patriotic bullshit instead). As far as i am see i am the ONLY representor of the afghan or the mulsim culture here - so i feel RESPONSIBILITY to answer on your murderous, stupid, uninformed and propaganda blinded comments. Blackhand, Ace and all others of that kind:
I feel unable to argue with u cuz ur brains are blocked with "Either he?s pro U.S. or hes a Terrorist". U may be surprised: I am neither (100%) Pro-U.S. and also not a terrorist. So what am i then? (i am not even 100% pro austria, and also only 5% pro afghanistan). Maybe u live in a world nicely divided into black and white. But i am making greyscales also. And by doing this i already admitted "to be positive surprised by the U.S. goverment so far". I have NO problem at all with the Bush Administration so far. They really seem to think before they will act (even when rational thinking is hard after such an tragedy).

Loud Notes: Tnx for trying to show me your friendship here but i would suggest to better keep u neutral,
or u will be moved into the anti-U.S./Traitor corner too by those assholes. We can discuss in emails about this when something changes but its senceless to share our thoughts with braindead idiots like some of my "old friends" here.

Ah yes:

Blackhand: It really doesnt interest me a bit if u lost respect for *DAMN or all your respect for me. I dont respect morons of your kind so keep that shit for yourself. The mayority of the *DAMNs are U.S. mates, and as many people know *DAMN is a clan of r6 vets who are bounded together with "friendship"! Now cuz u are hating me u spill sirth over whole *DAMN. Its just the same like u act toward afghan citizen now. One bad - all bad. Hahaha - i just have to wait to any of ur dumb replys to get proof to most what i said about u.

AND IDIOTS please:
Check it: I just compared ACE, BLACKHAND and the other members of the "Core of the american race" with Nazi-Thoughts. So i compared THEM to that and for sure NOT the american nation (nice try again fukcers).
By talking such crap like "mericans are more worth than others" etc. u can say what u want: This IS Nazi Propaganda! And if there is one thing that i hate more than blind nationalism its nazism! (same roots).

ATTENTION ALL:
I am NOT an anti-american
I am NOT an terrorist
I did NOT compare the U.S. Nation to the Nazi Regime (just two of their stupiedst citizens: ace, black and people like them)
i AM a democratic european who?s dad is afghan

So Ace and ur froggy friends: Its interesting how u try to gimme the view of an U.S. enemy here. When u claim u have the right to defend your country everywhere on this world u will have to accept that afghans will defend their soil too if foreign powers should bomb their civilians. If not u are just BIGGER nerds than i already thought.
Listen what Bush says about afghanistan and learn out of that. Bush (who i didnt like before) earned lot of my respect  the last days - and since they informed themself about afghanistan their plan there i say is clever. (but maybe u didnt watch american news the last 2 days - so u might lack a little behind - as usually.)

I must admit my MAC is made in the U.S.A.

cool. But (just to make the 2 nerds mad) the whole united states where (merely) founded by Europeans.

and yes: the english language originally comes from ENGLAND (as the name already indicates) - thats no reason to be ashame of - but i guess ace and black will be unable to accept this.

"I stand proud, just as the rest of my country has done. Bander, can you tell me the same? "

Yes.

Ace, this argument is futile. Bander is lashing out at anybody who disagrees with him. He doesn't even read our posts, for if he did he would see that we were the ones long before this thread was started, telling people not to make racial slurs, not to judge people because of their race, religion or nationality.

Bander, sigh. You're a biggot. You're ignorant. You're idiotic.

If you would read my posts you'd see that I have NEVER suggested that we kill innocent people or that I think an American life is worth more than other lives. You accuse me of all this bullshit, but when have I said something that actually supports your fucked-up theories?

Since when am I a hater the Islamic nation or any other religion? Since when do I hate Europe or Afghanistan? Quote me Bander. Cmon, I want to see a quote of mine that shows that I am what you say I am.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore, it's pointless. How do argue with someone who is so narrow-minded.

This isn't me trying to be friends with you and this isn't me saying that you're right. This is me saying I'm a bigger man than you and I won't waste my time trying to convince an oaf that he is stupid.

I'm proud of my country, proud of my freedom, proud of my rights, and proud of all the members of tis forum who have been sympathetic, helpful, and reasonable.

For what it's worth, though I will never say the USA is the greatest country on earth (I don't believe there is a country anywhere worthy of the title), I will say that it's damn close to being the greatest, and I thank god for letting me live in such a wonderful country.

Oh and few little things before I go:

1. England may have built the first computer, but the US are the ones who have pioneered the technology. What do I mean by that? We are the ones who have made possible the computing world today. Need proof? Bill Gates. Steve Jobs. IBM. Intel. Apple. Motorola. AMD.

2. The English language came from England, of course. But would English be such a vital language to learn if the US was not the power it is?

Well, with my partner in assing being the bigger man, I guess I have no choice to to try and live up to that standard.

I would just like to make a couple things clear. I never, NEVER said anything about arabs or muslims as a whole. I only made comments about small groups who deserved my insults. In fact, I have told many people (in real life, not the forums) repeatedly to quit using terms such as "raghead"

While blackhand may not share my uninhibited nationalistic pride, I am not ashamed of it one bit, nor do I think there is anything wrong with it. I still contend that I live in the greatest nation in the world. I also will still contend that the life of an American soldier is more valuable than the lives of the soldiers they fight against.

Finally, Bander, I would like you to contemplate why you know English so well? Is it because England has such a profound impact on you?

"But (just to make the 2 nerds mad) the whole united states where (merely) founded by Europeans."

And your point is Bander? Europeans originated (merely) from Africa, and Humans (merely) evolved from Ape-like creatures. Our point is that even though America was founded by some dissident Euros, we have made ourselves independent or Europe and now it is Europe trying to emulate us.

One word describes you: HYPOCRITE.

Bander... I have a new word for you to learn in your well informed life... it's hypocrisy.  You spit on me.....?  Fuck you.  I'm no child, I'm probably older then you.  I'm no ugly american, and I am most sure that I am not uneducated....  And I've probably worked in more countries then you have been too (and don't give me the shit about Europeans traveling all over.... some Americans do as well).  I have worked in Germany..... I spent much time there, in England and Brazil setting up the systems I worked on at Ford.  I also traveled while I was over there.  Some more info about me... I think I mentioned that I live in the bigest moslem area in North America... that the Iman from one of the Masks came to our church, to pray with us (I was there instead of at the CB with KoS).  Also, just FYI, Ace and I have talked about my Scottish blood... but the rest of it happens to be Native American... so I have my own views of this nation, and when it really began.

Now... a quote from Bander:

Grift and the others here who waste my once so beloved forums: Go to hell with your advices to me how to "discuss" here. I dont care what people like u think about me - u are not the kind of people i wanna have props from. and i dont care if i loose your respect - i spit on your "respect" - u are unable to respect human life at all - so i dont need your fukcing idiot respect at all. ?[/list][/color]

Hmmmm..... I am unable to respect human life..... I said that somewhere?  I even hinted that??  Bullshit.  Take your well informed ass and READ MY FUCKING POSTS YOU ASSHOLE.  

Jeez... what's this.. I was the first one to come to Bander's defense?  I spoke out against hate towards all Arab and Moslems?  I said that bombing and killing innocents would be terrible?  I said we need to concentrate on finding the guilty and only punishing them??  Damn... I did say those things, didn't I!

Oh, wait, Bander now wants to talk about America's violence.... about us dropping the bomb.... yes, great loss of life.... but wait.... what's this... I seem to remember that it was the Nazi's (led by that short little Austrian dude.. emmm.. HITLER) that were working on that first... that would have had it if they had the time to finish.... wait... more... wasn't it that short little Austrian dude that was behind many more innocent deaths then were caused by the A Bombs??  Bander... if you are going to use history (which is one of the things I advised not be brought into this), then you are in trouble.  Because EVERYWHERE in the world, you can find hate and evil.  Any stone you cast here... can be cast right back.  You have verbally attacked those that were on your side... and you are to blind or stupid to see it.  I was the one that made the point that all "innocent" lives were equal, you idiot.  So go back and read your liberal magazines that tell you that the USA is responsible for your problems, because we force our valuse upon the world.  What I have to say to that is.... if your values are that good, they will survive.  The world becomes a better, safer place every generation.... we as a race, learn what's right.  The right values will flower over time.

You Bander, you speak down to Ace, Blackie, myself and others here... like you know more... like you are better.... that's why you are a hypocrite.

Loudnotes... I didn't forget you either.  You just keep it up.  You're words here are honest and brave.  Voicing the unpopular opinion with logic and reason is EXACTLY THE RIGHT THING TO DO, if those are your feelings.  

I have not agreed with many of the  things that Ace and Blackie have said... but they actually do discuss the issues with me... not lob insults... you did that Bander.  

Mauti, my other friends here.... I case I'm coming off too harsh here.. I'm trying to say that the people of today (American, Austrian, whomever) are not the people that did those things 60 years ago.  I was trying to make a point, and not insult your country.  Bander, at this point, I don't care if I've insulted you, because you've gone well past insulting me.  You've insulted me personally, and through your stereotypes.  Blow me.

1. Yes but we still made the first one ;)

2. English is such a popular language due to the fact that the British Empire was so wide spread, maybe the US being the large technological centre taht is is helped but I would bet that if the US had ammounted to nothing English would still be a major language.

OK Im probably not going to reply to anymore in this topic as Im just going to purposly wind people up from now on and as that seems to be the way things have been going its gettng more & more out of hand.

Wow, I leave the forum for 3 days and come back to 40 new posts.

Um, yes loud, I am a "armchair liberal," but we are armchair politicians by the look of it, except for mauti.

My ideas are credible and theory well-based loud?  Im flattered, really.  Especially since theory is about all we got to work with.

Bander is crazy.  He's got some good points in there, but hes overreacted and said some crazy shit.  *Sigh*, it looks like its just me arguing for the Afgans now.

As to some earlier comments, I support the bombing of hiroshima.  Not Nagasaki though, I think that was a bad desicion.  But enough about WW2...

Its not about old people, young people, afgans, americans, japenese, muslims or anythone else.  This is about Life.  No life is more important than another.  To think otherwise is rather sick-minded.

What I want is the least amount of death possible, and yet still justice.  Its alot to ask for, and war sure isnt going to accomplish it.

I can't really respond to much else, being that there is so much.  At least in here we have really conversation in here.

Blackhand, I must say that you were right....I was stuck up a little too far on my high horse, and I apologize.  All of our opinions are equally worthwhile.  However, if you will notice Mort's post just above this one, you will see what I mean about his ideas.  As far as I can tell, he is the only one who hasn't cursed or insulted anyone in this 'discussion'.  Bravo to that!

However, I still think you are all wrong to take such offense at each other's comments.  If you are we are all too blind (isn't that a theme here?) to recognize when something said in anger should be disregarded, then we will remain needlessly upset at each other forever.

Whatever respect any of you might have had for each other, etc. should not change because you had the guts to voice your opinions, however inflammatory, stupid, or downright wrong they might be.  

That's what I was trying to get at up on my high horse.  Let's please just have some discussion, so perhaps we can all gain a better appreciation for the world today.

In other words, lets just all kiss and make up!



;D

as long as we're on a lighter note, I would like to correct that Mort actually did curse:

he said


(gasp)

Mort, I must say that you are wrong to say that we here are all armchair politicians. I vote. I'm sure GRIFT votes. I'm sure that when you, blackhand, and loudnotes turn 18 you guys will vote. The only armchair politicians are those who turn down their RESPONSIBILITY (note: not right) to vote and later bitch at whoever was voted in.

Loud, heh. i also should apologize to you.

But, I don't get upset when someone argues their views. However, when it becomes a personal attack, I will take offense at that. I'm sorry, but I have little tolerance for anyone who "voices" their opinion in the manner which bander did.

Mort, i think everyone agrees we don't want ANY innocent people killed, but speaking from a realistic perspective, that seems doubtful, I mean we've already had thousands lost. Any move the US makes politically or otherwise, terrorists will most likely attack again and again.

I'm not saying it's right, but there comes a point (though I feel we are not at that point yet) where the leaders of our nation and all the nations must weigh the situation and make a move. Again, I don't condone murder, but realistically speaking, it will most likely happen.

That is why being the leader of a free nation is so hard. Thousands, millions of lives are in your hands and you have to do you best to protect them. Mort, you couldn't be president for that reason. I doubt many people could.

I suggest that everyone rents the following movies, I think that they're very powerful and horrorifying, especially during this time in the world, but none the less, I think everyone can gain some perspective from them. I know I have.

Deterence. Kevin Pollack.
Dr. Strangelove. Kubrick.
Grave Of The Fireflies. Anime.
Apocalypse Now. Coppola.

Ace, voting is not a responsibilty, it is most definitly a right.  By not voting you make just as much of a political statement as you do by voting.  I am a registered voter, and will no doubt vote in the next election.  But that is because I am not apathetic, I am not content, and I do not support the status quo.  

We only have 1 responsibility as citezans, and that is to abide by those laws which are necessary and proper, in place  to sustain order and to protect liberty.  

All those ammendments which say we can vote(14, 19, 23, 24, and 26) also imply that we don't have to.  Sounds like a right to me.

I suppose you're the type of guy who'd go for a flag-burning ammendment too, arn't you?

moving on, enough of that.
---
Douf, I'd make a horrible pres.  why?  cause i would never want that position, cause I hate compromise, and most importantly, cause I'm a really pessamistic idealist, and the combination is a real pain in my ass.

Member of Congress would be much better for me, but I'm not expecting that anytime... ever.

Oh - i do read those postings. i ve to say sorry if some of ur ignorant bullshit is so full of crap - so that my "ape-like" english (or should i say "american") skills are not able to understand em as u really meant em.

If i wouldnt have ur damn posts u wouldnt have angered me that much on your idiotic talks that i never would have posted something here.

And at last more important things are happening meanwhile - and i dont even have an argument to attack the U.S. goverment right now (smart).
Seems they are really acting professional and gained themselve proper information about a large range of facts. The North Alliance is gaining territory, they take over taliban merchanarys and are advancing Kabul from all sides. Taliban fear uprears in now lightly controllen provences. A spokesman of the alliance declared even when now they have to fight like a regular army - whats harder than their guerilla tactics - they gain a fast advance and could liberate the most vital parts of the the country in 2 weeks (if they keep getting ammunition and fuel. Iran, Russia and maybe also U.S. support them now). Their Spokesman added due to their informants they may have the capability to capture Bin-Laden and if he survive this (He killed Massood) they will hand over him the U.S.

WARNING: The pakistani so called "goverment" is trying to avoid support for the NA and is trying to damage their reputation (what is another violation of Commander Massood?s honour!). For a fair reason, gentlemen: After they suppported the Taliban directly when they invaded afghanistan, after they had regulary pakistani troops in afghanistan fighting against the NA and after they  where involved in the assassination of Massood they fear for the savety of their asses from in and ourtside! And they would get a very "unfriendly" neighbour in the new afghan goverment.
(But the pakistani one is a "illegal" one that overthrowened the old one and which is refusing free elections so far. so when this will be removed by a democratic then it could all change to good maybe).

Also i saw a documentation about the U.S.-Afghan Community in Queens who hold of a pro U.S.A. and pro NA March in Queens too (5000 people). Was a very funny view to see. Afghans waving the U.S. Flag and signs "Allah bless America". LOL. Shoutouts to to their american neighbours in Queens - they must be very cool.

-------------

as u may notice i did not continue to answer any accusing or insulting post here coming from several sides. i also not answer to any futurous comment of that sort (from anyone). But if there are any interesting points to share about the recent ongoings in that issue we should continue that. Of course if u correct me about anything i said would be smart (any further comments of my ex-friends i will simply ignore. WHY should i let me force of from my own forums by such clowns. lol).

Greetings  8)

Ah yes, Bander here seems to be taking lessons from Romulus....  seems that if he can read my last post, he thinks that all my prevous posts are ignorant bullshit.... So I guess BANDER IS FOR BOMBING!  Oh my lord!  Well, there you have it... my posts that we should stop and think... that we should not bomb, that all lives are equal... they are all BULLSHIT... you heard it here from Bander.  He must be right, after all... he is sure that he is better informed and smarter then the rest of us.  So if he really read my posts.... and he thinks they are bullshit... he must be for the bombing.

Bander, you are the one that started throwing insults around here.... not me.  I was supporting you.  I was (and am) against bombing.  so ignore this if you like (you seem to ignore anything that might mean you made a mistake, just like old Rom).  For your information, there are plenty of intelligent things being posted here, by Loud, Mort, Ace, Black, me and even you.  It's just that YOU started making personal attacks and general attacks on a few of us.  That was not intelligent... that was being a dumbass.

Mort, I think voting and citizenship do carry a responsibility.  No, you don't have to vote... but not voting doesn't make you less responsible for the outcome.  Not voting is just casting your vote in the default bucket.  I do vote, on any issue I have feelings about.  I do not vote on any issues I don't (figuring that the people that care will know more about it, and since I don't care, I probably don't know enough to make an informed vote).  The bad thing here is that we are a Republic, not a True Democracy (haven't heard of a True one since Ancient Greece).  That means that we don't get to vote on all the issues... we elect the people to make those votes for us.  This process makes voting less meaningful in many peoples eyes (not really less meaningful, but it seems that way).  What I would like to see is the US to move towards a True Democracy (where every voter can vote on every issue... no Congress.)  With technology moving forward, and information being more and more accessable... maybe it can happen in my lifetime.

What if in your mind neither of the two main canidates deserve to be the President? Vote for a third party canidate?

In the words of Kang (alien from Simpsons):

Kang: It's true! We are aliens! But what are you going to do about it? It's a two party system! You have to vote for one of us!

Man in Crowd: Well, I'm just going to vote for a third party!

Kang: Go ahead! Throw your vote away!! HA HA HA HA!!!

Actually Blackie.... voting for the third party is a good idea, if you don't have a difference between the other two.

Now let me explain my thinking here.  Let's say in the past election, it really didn't matter too much to you if Bush or Gore was elected (this works better in other elections, where the candidates were pretty much twins with different hats on).  Anyway, if this is the case, voting third party is a very good idea.  If a third party gets a certain % of the popular vote.... they then can get into the government controlled campaign "war chest" for the next time.  What does that mean?  It means that the US government gives funds to each "recognized party" to use in their campaigns.  If a third party gets "X" amount of votes (I can't remember what the number was in the past election.... been too long), they become a "recognized party".  This is a HUGE deal... it means getting this third party time in the debates.... air time.... other things.  

There was actually a big stink about this in the past presidential elections.  California and Arizona (or Navada... again, memory is failing me) voters for Gore and a Third Party Candidate were trying to "trade votes".  Since it looked very bad for Gore in the polls in California... the voters for the third party candidate wanted the California voters to vote Third Party (pushing up high the number of popular votes) while they would vote for Gore (possibly swinging their state's electoral votes over).  

So, if the first two party's suck... voting third party now is the only way to break the two party system in the future.  Or at least the most likely way.

Short history and civics lesson:

The Mayflower Compact of 1620 established a direct democracy for the colony of Plymouth.  However short lived, it was one of a few direct democracies we've had since Greece.

Flag burning is not only legal, it is the preferred method of disposal for an American flag that has been soiled by touching the ground.

Loud,
Good point.  I don't count the Mayflower Compact.... as they were a colony... .which means they were a "local" government, and still subject to the crown at the time.  On that level, there are actually communities within the US now that still practice that type of democracy.... but only up to the county level (as far as I know, I don't think there's a state out there without representation).  But, you're right, the Mayflower Compact was an example.

As for burning the flag.... even without it being a proper way to dispose of it, burn it.  Burning a flag is a statement, not a crime.  It's an insult, not a crime.  It's probably being a dumbass, but that's not a crime.  Burning a flag is just a good way to never get your views listened to.  That's the problem with statements.... make one too loud and in your face... people don't listen to the underlying message... they react to the statement.

Exactly.

I just didn't quite see what Mort meant when he referred to a 'flag-burning amendment' seeing as it's already legal to burn a flag.....

*sits here being an American and being quite offended by the Anti-American comments*  Don't mind me...

Fuck. This has gone from terrorism to flag burning. I put flag burners in the circle of hell just barely above terrorists. Blah blah blah, its a protest, blah blah blah. Bullshit. In this country, there are tons of other ways to make a statement without burning something that men have gone to war and died war. Flags are laid on the coffins of veterans. Why not just dig up the coffins and burn 'em? That would make a fucking statement too.

Hey Ace,
That's exactly why burning a flag is a stupid way to make a statement.... because people react that way.  But remember.... flying the Nazi flag... the Stars and Bars... or burning our Flag... those are rights that those vets fought and died for.... no matter how stupid you'd have to be to do any of them.

Yes, I realize that they fought for those rights too... it's just a shame that the right to be a dumbass is inherently tied to greater freedoms.

Loud, flag burning is protected under the 1st ammendment, right now.  But every year members of Congress advocating the end of that freedom.

As I suspected Ace supports it... which proves my point, he is not only blinded by patriotism, he is defiled by it.

How bout we respect our veterans by respecting our freedoms, and just as importantly respecting other (Afgans) peoples freedoms?  Seems like that would honor our veterans a lot more than worshiping a piece of fucking cloth.

Though I don't appreciate people burning the American flag in protest, I understand that it is protected by the 1st Amendment. And while I agree with everything you said Mort, you are downplaying the significance of the flag.

Piece of fucking cloth? Is a statue of the Virgin Mary just marble?

Would Veterans be better honored by respecting our freedom? Yes. Would God be better served by being a kind and loving person rather than worshipping him? Yes.

The flag represents freedom and the ideals on which our Country and freedom are based upon. Don't talk as though the flag is just cloth.

[You crossed the line. I won't stand for that. Ace], The flag IS just cloth. ?It is what they represnt that counts. ?their destruction is no destruction of an ideal, only of an object. ?Tn fact, the only object that is more than the sum of it's part is the living organism, more specifically, us.

But I have gotten us way off topic. ?My bad.

Back to the question at hand:

Terrorism is bad.
Libralism is good.

Blind Patriotism,
Blind Pacifism,
Blind Hate, ? ? ? ? ?disastorous.

Yay for rampant generalizations!

I am sorry that I had to do that, but that just overstepped the bounds of debate. You may argue that it's my religious beliefs taking over, but I don't really give a crap. I just found that totally offensive and inappropriate.


BTW, "Libralism" is pretty overrated, just as spelling obviously is on these forums.

Sweet Jesus.... what goes here?  Hypocracy abounds, name-calling is rampant, people are not listening, and spelling sucks.

Starting for the record... I'm a dead pat moderate (scored a 50 on the test in poli-sci).  Go figure.. me being able to see both sides.

So, while I see the stupidity and feel insulted by the flag burners, I do think it's their right to protest in that manner...   While I see the need to so something different and violent towards terrorism and terrorists, I do hope that we do it in a way to not kill any innocent people and keep the world from war.

So Mort... while you don't believe that a symbol is important at all... and you don't think that the union of states are greater then the sum of the parts... that's fine, it's your opinion... let's not start the name calling (you saw how effective that was with Bander).  Just because Ace is more conservative then you (ok, that's an understatement)... doesn't invalidate his words.  

It's when ideas that are different come together for debate that things are grown and understood.  It's how we learn and judge.  Bander forgot that and started hurling insults in a stereotypical (or "over generalized") way.  That deminished his arguments.  Don't fall into that trap.  If you think that Ace's view is wrong about flag burning.... discuss the points... or what is the point... eh?

Mort I think you might be a bit offended if I went around wearing a Nazi flag draped around my shoulders. Sure, the flag itself is a piece of cloth, but what it stands for is the reason people take offense to seeing the swastica.

When someone burns our flag, they are burning a symbol of our liberty. It's within their rights, but offensive regardless.

If the flag is just cloth, then is a statue of jesus just stone? Is a gravestone just granite? Is a nobel peace prize just a gold? Or an Olympic medal just a piece of cloth attached to gold, silver, or bronze?

If so, then why do people get upset when they are vandalized, stolen, etc.

Setimental value. Sure, some of my vost valued possesions are just newspaper clippings, yet they represent and mean more to me than just that.

Are your parents just breeders to you?

I know I'd find it offensive to see you running around naked, draped in a nazi flag.... and only some of it's from the nazi flag part.....

hehe.

Ok, re-reading some of the stuff here I notice a little modification of Mort's post by Ace.... I have two things to say to that:

1)I'm going to guess that Mort said something truely offensive about the statue of Mary (or something like that). To Ace I'm going to say that I probably (can't say for sure as I didn't see it before editing) would not have censored the post. As stated before, I believe that freedom of speach includes the freedom to be a dumbass. Which leads me to:

2) To Mort, Bander, and really everyone else here. Let us not forget about

RESPECT! It's very disrespectful to call people names... to spit upon their opinions... to wish people death and pain... to insult their beliefs. I don't care what you (anyone) believes in... I'm no jew, but I'd never take a piss on the Wailing Wall... I'm no moslem, but I'd never spit at Mecca... I'm no liberal, but I'd never beat down a flag burner or homosexual... Why? Because I respect the opinions of others, no matter how different or idiotic they may be to me.[/list]

On a last note... I'm a patriot. That doesn't mean I'm a blind nationalist... it means that I believe in the things that this country (and by representation, it's flag) happen to mean. So, how about increasing the amount of respect shown to your fellow human beings and lowering the insult levels a bit.
[/color]


[I noticed a ton of ?'s throughout your post. I doubt these were intentional, but they made it hell to read. If they were there for a purpose (failed code of some sort?) I'm sorry. Ace]

Ace:      
     So my spelling is bad.  I typed that post quickly and the typos and misspellings were excessive.  Nearly everyone is guilty of that crime here, so it seems pointless to single me out.  Single me out if you must if that is the most effective argument you have.  I won't stop you.  (For those who care, the correct spelling is Liberalism)
As for your censorship of my post, I may have worded that incorrectly.  I meant to qualify the start of that sentence with "The statue of..."  No theologian in the world would disagree with my statement, as now edited.  As I said, the object is nothing, it is what the object symbolizes that counts. I am a Catholic. (I assume you are too, being that you are Irish and took you offence to that particular comment) My statement does not contradict OUR beliefs/religon.  

Grift(post 1):
     When you speak of the states, such talk is based on an IDEA, not an object.  I speak only of the fizekull world.  
     I put that "rampant generalization" comment at the end of my post to show that I am not speaking maliciously, but that i understand the flaws in my post.  Evrything after my first paragraph was to revive the debate as it related to Loudnotes first post.  I obviously revived the debate... but not in the way I wished.




Blackhand, two things:
     First, you know my parents... and you just brought to mind the image of them having sex.  Shame on you!
     Second, read my posts next time.  I specifically said "the only object that is worth more than the it's {I'll do you a favor and point out the grammer mistake there, it should be "its", not "it's" - P-Roy}  parts is the living organism..."  I was referring to mankind, and if i'm not mistaken, my parents belong in that catagory.

Grift (post 2):
     I did not name call or point fingers.  I may have offended, but I hope my current post is clearing those things up.  
                 a)I did miss-word my virgin mary comment.  For this I am sorry.
                 b)Have I stopped respecting you, Ace, black, or anyone else?  Not                                                            that I can see.
     Finally, I put "blind" before both patriotism and pacifism because though neither are evil in any sense, when they are followed without thought the effects are disastorous.

I hope I have clarified my post to which you all object so much.  More will come soon enough in response to all of your debatable points

(On a lighter, unrelated note, I'll be posting in the next 2 days a T.E.T editorial on etiquette, as it applys to CSL)

sigh. i'd respond, but i'll just punch mort when i see him.

Mort: dont argue with them anymore. Its only a stupid 3 people coversation here anyways (i will not answer to those nerdish comments of the flag-burning theme too, but any intelligent person will see the stupidy of most arguments there - i hope).

Mr. Grifter put on his "wise man of peace" mask again and felt moody to adress this to me (and other glorious info and tips):

"... 2) To Mort, Bander, and really everyone else here. Let us not forget about RESPECT! "

muahahaha. yeah. indeed. but please: think whatever u want about whatever u wanna think, i figured out your (ace, black, grift and some "guests") opinions are just disgusting me - this is what i think personally so stop adressing your "opinions" to me (im not letting me being provocated by u guys again):

"... Because I respect the opinions of others, no matter how different or idiotic they may be to me."

LOL unbelievable that u can post such a bullshit after your other posts here.

i just have one thing to say: NO one is consoring anything here!!! if i catch somebody censoring others free speech here i will make sure that mauti gets another moderator for this thread. (general gossip).

he would make me an admin too - but im not interested to cocky run around here. so watch what u say. FOR SURE it will NOT happen that u spam this forum with your "opinions" and censore other ones. Never!

Precious Mort - message me on GR so we can swap email adresses (actual ones). i think we could have a better discussion about the recent political situation "privately". I am hangin in the web 6 hours a day actually, filtering out everything concerning this Crisis.
Could get u some kewl URLS with news-compilations from all important newspapers in english language.
And we wouldnt offend each other about any spelling failures - i bet on that.

LoL and Mort - didnt check it on time that u have been "Roy" earlier on GR ;)

sigh. if only bander knew what mort really thought about his comments.

Bander, you are pretty pathetic.  You are really as bad as Romulus.  Face it, you can't read ENGLISH if you think I don't respect others opinions.  I was the first here to support your opinions... I even quoted them for you... If I'm full of shit... find the post and quote it here.  Go ahead.  Maybe by re-reading them, you'll figure out that I am a moderate.  That, maybe, you mistook sarcastic remarks for opinion.  Probably not though, you probably won't take the time to read them.  You started the insults here.

As for being a moderator... fuck you.  Mauti asked me to, I never asked to be one.  I've only upheld the standards that Mauti expressed to me when he asked me to do it.  I've heard enough of you and your "My Forums" bullshit.  You are the one here that doesn't respect others opinions.  You and Zak were the ones throwing insults early.  So please, if you can't express your opinions intellegently, then yes, please go do them in private.  Because of you, I feel less sympathy for the Afghans now.  I don't want that.

Well GRIFT, I think that moderator comment of Bander's was directed at me. I highly doubt he is even dumb enough to suggest that you are a bad moderator.


Let me just state that if comes down to me trying to stop something that I extremely offensive religiously, I am going to censor it. I have done this once. I rarely do more with my moderator powers than delete smilies and delete double postings. I doubt anyone would say I am a bad moderator. Mauti asked me to do the job, and I feel I have done a damn good job of it. Before you started your mindless rantings, not once did someone complain to my knowledge of my moderatoring abilities before this. If a lot of people have a problem with me, I will resign, but I highly doubt this is the case.


Elaborating on what GRIFT said, these are basically no more your forums than they are mine, GRIFT's, Wrath's, blackhand's, Mort's, and anyone else who comes here regularly. Yes, you created *DAMN, but to the best of my knowledge, this site and these forums are almost entirely the work of Mauti (and helpers like Elandrion to a lesser extent)

Bander, and to anyone else who cares: my email is Morttty@aol.com (yay for crappy internet providers)

Black-dawg: ?I think nothing bad or good about bander's comments. ?Truth is, I only skimmed the last set that eceryone got so riled up about. ?I figured if Grift was mad he must have said some crazy shizat. ?i still stick with that opinion.

Ace, Bander: ?Though I dislike this sole act of censorship, I understand the rational and have not complained. ?If it had really bothered me I would have posted it in another section, where Ace lacks the powers of moderation.

To all: This is a conversation between myself and douf which ?I've found amusing enough to post...


Morty969: ? ? ?I posted a big long statement of clarification
Dfresh3: ? ? ?you're an idiot
Morty969: ? ? ?arguebly
Morty969: ? ? ?true, the arguments are stronger for the opposing side...
Dfresh3: ? ? ?haha. what did ace edit?
Morty969: ? ? ?"The virgin mary IS stone"
Morty969: ? ? ?or "a piece of marble"
Morty969: ? ? ?or something to that extent
Dfresh3: ? ? ?lol.
Dfresh3: ? ? ?you're confirmed. you're supposed to buy into all the shit catholics try to evangelize.
Morty969: ? ? ?hahaha
Morty969: ? ? ?remember, I'm not a very good catholic.
Dfresh3: ? ? ?you like to disagree just to disagree. that's what you two are really bitching about.
Morty969: ? ? ?to an extent
Morty969: ? ? ?we also have deep ideological differences.
Morty969: ? ? ?but disagreeing is fun
Dfresh3: ? ? ?bah. if you really believed in what you were saying you'd burn an american flag.
Morty969: ? ? ??
Dfresh3: ? ? ?and piss on a statue of the virgin mary.


Now now Douf, I won't go that far. ?I don't burn the flag because I have the freedom to burn it, and I don't piss on a statue of the Virgin Mary because, well, what's the point? ?No use pissing off God anymore than I've already pissed Him off. (I'm also, contrary to popular belief, a big fan of this "Respect" evreyone's been talking about.)

Hey Mort,
I'm just going through this thread again, since Bander is of the opinion that I'm a warmongering ass... I figured that if I was going to challenge him to re-read my posts, I should do the same.

So, that said, I think I was a little harsh on you.  I was pissed at Bander, and saw a tiny piece of what he was doing in your posts.  So, I was wrong for directing my anger towards you, and I'm sorry.  

But, I still can't figure out why Bander turned into a blind ass.  Ah, but I guess it doesn't really matter, if he's decided to become a Dumbass... it's not my place to stop him.

sigh.

Maybe our high-minded language is too hard to understand.  While Bander speaks very good English, he isn't a native speaker and certainly does not understand everything perfectly.


Also, and I'm curious from this debate here:

I was under the impression that the proper way to dispose of a soiled American flag is to burn it.  Is that correct?  If so, how is this done?  If not, what is done instead?  I'm pretty sure you don't just toss a worn out flag in the trash can....

Loud,
burning is the preferred way to dispose of the American flag. ?There are 5 or 6 accepted ways. ?A guy at work posted a 10 page document he D/L'd from somewhere on all the different "rules" regarding the American flag (what pole to hang it from... flying at night ok only if you spotlight it... etc). ?I'll find the link and modify this post next time I'm in the building.

[/b][/size]

Okay -

First of all - use my name as often u like in ur funny messages i will not continue to answer to this bullshit. (Mr. Grifter - u managed to make me that upset on u so its very unlikely u would earn any respect from any other afghan or afghan woman. no need to keep up your fake respect for us - thanks.).

Its like any other discussion here: Post something and another "chat battle" starts. Seems there a lotta bored people here who like it to fight each other in these forums for every single word while not seeing the mainframe of the current issues. Poor such ones.

So - as i said it would be:  yesterday on Sunday the U.S. and their "merry little elves" from U.K. started to bomb Afghanistan. Enjoy your war. (CNN will provide u with some nice green screens)

In times like this one i am glad to know WHO my friends are - regards.

50 Tomahawks. Lotsa B-52's. 2 B-2's. 37,000 tons of food. 0 civilians.


USA - 1, Taliban/Bin Laden - 0


It's times like this that I'm glad to know who my friends are and how good of a military they run.

bander. even now you can't keep your moth shut.

The Northern Alliance openly welcomed the attack on the Taliban.

WE are dropping supplies, food, and clothing to you.

WE'VE provided food for Afghanistan's for years now, especially those living within the Taliban's terroritory.

WE are praying and hoping our missles didn't kill any innocent people.

Maybe you've ignored all of what we've been saying, but the prominent figures in this debate thread have ALL said they don't want innocent people to die.

It's my hope that one day you'll see that we are not against you, America is not your enemy, and we want only to enable the USA, Afghanistan, and the WORLD to live without fear and with relative peace.

Bander,

First, you do continue to respond...

Second, I'm not going to worry about respect from you... as I don't have any for you anymore.  I don't respect people that can't discuss issues rationally and logically.  I don't respect people that use stereotypes.  I don't respect hypocrates.

Third, thanks anyway, but I have enough Afghan (and other Arab / Moslem) friends over here already.  I'll continue to show them the respect they are due, and I'll start showing you the lack of respect that you've brought upon your dumbass head.

Fourth, the only think fake here is your claim to have read any of my posts in full.  I've never preached war, only peace... I've wished peace to you and yours.. and meant it.  Your just way too much of an arrogant asshole to realize your mistakes.

Last... you still have friends with your asshole attitued??  I'm amazed.  Then again, I guess little men that stand up and preach hate towards other groups (like you towards Americans... you know.. that fat lazy bunch always looking for the next burger king you were talking about) always seem to find followers.  Hitler did.. bin Laden did.. I'm sure you have yours too.  I guess what I'm saying here is, yes, you've proven to many here what an arrogant asshole you are, what a hypocrate you are, and I guess the only think left to say is.... fuck it, you aren't worth anymore effort.

Bander: If you dont want a slagging of then shut the fuck up, You go on about one thing and then do the same against various memebers of the forums. Im sick of you winging, your all agrreing on similar things anyway.

from a 'merry little elf'

0 civilians?  An unkown number of civilians have been killed, anywhere from 60 to 100, including 4 UN representatives.

USA - 1, Humanity - 0

As for the Northern Allience, we should continue to give them weapons, we should give them our political backing, and we should give them food.  But we need to stop bombing.  In fact, we never should have started.

At the time of my post, 0 civilians were reported dead by both the BBC and THE TALIBAN'S OFFICIAL RADIO. If some died later, that is sad, but you must remember we are at war with people who attacked our soil. We all remember how badly we fucked up the last nation to do that. 60-100 civilians is extremely small in comparison.
Then again, I bet our food drops have saved the lives of at least that many people. Hell, we might even come out of this with more lives saved than civilian lives killed. Don't go saying we are in a battle with humanity. Humanity already lost, but not to us. Humanity lost on 9/11.


Also, don't go saying we should blindly back the Northern Alliance. I think we all remember what happened when we back a "good" Afghanistan group 20 years ago against the evil Soviets and where they are today.

Read the news, listen to the radio Ace - but stop dreaming.

Listen to what humanity-organisations say about "your food drops" -

Go and try to find out why the U.S. supported the Taliban together with the Pakistani ISI (before the 11th) -

If i tell ya u wouldnt believe it anyway - but before posting such a uninformed shit u could use the web to get some proper information on things u are talking about.

But one thing: So far the U.S. didnt even send weapons and ammo to aid the NA (they just supported the mudjaheddin as long they fought against the sioviets) - the russians and iran are doing that. Another thing: Ask those killed people (for excemple the U.N. mine seekers) and their relatives if they agree in what u said. And this sentence is totally shizo: "Humanity already lost, but not to us. Humanity lost on 9/11."

Wheatever - have fun with your war ace. I hate it.

Ace, We supported a democratic uprising.  When the soviets left Afganistan eruptedin a civil war.  Those previously supported by the US, (now comprising much of the NA)planned a democratic coalition, but were subjugated by the taliban.  Rather then help our allies, we got the hell out of afganistan.

Ace, they arn't starving in Afganistan, our food is welcome and needed by th eAfgan people, but it hasn't saved many from starving, because most werentstarving in the first place.

Did you know wthat in May we gave the Taliban 40 million dollars, because they had been effective in cutting down the poppy crop? (poppy=precursor to heroin)  Yay for the war on drugs, financing goverments striving to destroy us.

mort. the afghan people have been starving. not all but many. if it weren't for the US now and in the past, many more Afghans would be starving. stop manipulating facts to prove your points.

bander. who do you think the Russian and Isreali governments are working in conjuction with?

if it were up to you, you'd have the Northern Alliance be the only force going against the Taliban. Maybe you have years to wait around for them to overthrow the Taliban, but the world does not.

With every anti-american comment you posts, it only makes us care less about the Afghan people. Pull your head out of your ass and wake up.

WE ARE YOUR ALLIES. WE DON'T WANT WAR. THE TALIBAN HAS LEFT US WITH NO CHOICE. WE HAVE KNOCKED OUT MANY MAJOR TALIBAN AND TERRORIST POINTS. WE HAVE MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO BE DEFEATED QUICKLY, NOT ONLY BY THE US, BUT BY THE NORTHERN ALLIACNE AS WELL.

Finally, civillians have died, but not nearly as many as you are suggesting.

The U.N. mine seekers died because of their own idiocy. They were informed not to stay overnight in that area, but did so anyways. It was the U.N.'s fault not the US's.

I would respond but I need to go find a Burger King...

We (AMERICA) are just such a nice country THE NICEST in the worl wwhat other country would supply the enimie's starving people wwith food medicine ect ect ect...... and at the same time bomb the shit ot of em we r just to nice

I would be responding right now to everything that was just said, but jaggedEdge's post has confused me beyond the point of response.

What the hell are you trying to say JE?

ditto.

Blackhand (this is what u said):

"The U.N. mine seekers died because of their own idiocy. They were informed not to stay overnight in that area, but did so anyways. It was the U.N.'s fault not the US's. "

? Comments and thinking like this really disgusts me.
? If idiocy kills everywhere u would be in great danger permanently.
? U have no respect for human lifes (at least not for all kind of)
? cursing and posing doesnt make u appear more clever than u are

meanwhile another 200 villagers got killed (prooven by western journalists) - i am sure this number will keep growing - but go ahead and enjoy your "venegance".

So - now go ahead and add some crap here again -

Bander, get off your high horse. I will put this as simply as possible for you

The United States of America was attacked.

The United States of America is defending itself.

In every war in history, from the most just wars to the least, civilians have died. If you want someone to blame for this, go find Bin Laden and kick his ass. It's his fault (along with his cohorts) that we are put in this situation.

Ace, you've got Bander all wrong.  Don't use logic, it doesn't work.  Look at his posts.  He's not against violence, he's just against the USA.  There are plenty of people around like that, I ran into way too many of them over in Europe. Mostly in Germany and France (Germany, at least I can understand a bit, hard feelings over wars lost, but after coming to France's rescue a couple times, they really confuse me).  But I degress.  Bander is just your typical USA basher.  He's not against violence and the killing of innocents when it came from the Northern Allicance.... just when it comes from American bombs.

So, don't try to argue with him, that would require logical debate.  It's useless with Bander.  To borrow a stereotype from him, he's just turned into eurotrash.  Jumping on a bandwagon to bash the USA.

Sum up my thoughts:

1. I wish we had never bombed (too many innocents always die in bombing)
2. I hope they stop bombing and send in specail forces to finish the job (innocents will probably still die, but less then with bombing).
3.  War is the natural extension of politics (wish I could remember who said that first).  War has been declared upon the USA by Bin Laden multiple times (the cole was an act of war..... and Bin Laden called for the so called "holy war".
4. War is not good.... ever.  But there is no police force to call.... nobody that can go arrest this group of crazy criminals.  These criminals are being kept safe in somebody's house.... not holding them hostage, but being allowed to stay there... being protected.  When you harbor a criminal, you become a criminal, in most cultures I've ever seen.
5.  I hope this is over quickly.  I hope nobody else (besides Bin Laden and his followers) dies.  Unfortunately, the sad truth is, the world is not a perfect place, and this wont happen.
6. The likelyhood of no more innocents dieing is about the same as Bander not being an asshole... just ain't gonna happen.

[/color]

My Dad told me not to put my hand on the hot stovetop. I did anyways. I got burned by my own idiocy.

The UN informed those mine seekers not to stay in that area overnight. They did anyways. They were killed by their own idiocy.

"Comments and thinking like this really disgusts me."

Why? Because I speak the truth, or because I'm a citizen of The United States Of America?

If idiocy kills everywhere u would be in great danger permanently

Idiocy does kill. I have no argument about that whatsoever.

U have no respect for human lifes (at least not for all kind of)

Have I not stated time and time again that I did not want innocent lives to be lost, regardless of Nationality?  

I have no respect for Osama Bin Laden's life. I have no respect for members and supporters of Terrorist factions

cursing and posing doesnt make u appear more clever than u are

hmmm. coming from you, that really means something.

hypocritical bullshit. typical bander.

but hey, he has a point, we don't have to experience the same attacks on our soil as he does. Oh, wait, we already have and the casaluties were MUCH MORE SEVERE.

and he has a right to put words into our mouth's disregard our posts and manipulate facts, after all, he's the disadvantaged here. he's been through soo much in his lifetime, we fat lazy americans won't ever know the troubles that he has endured. Oh, wait, we have and our troubles have been much more real and much more scary.

in closing, though this is unrelated to this thread, if anyone needs a reason not to smoke pot, well you got it. it's name is Bander.

after reading grift's post, I think maybe my motives have been unclear. though I'm pretty damn sure I already said these things multiple times in this thread.

i do not want any innocent people to die.
i do not want to bomb Afghanistan.
i do not want the pain that the US has felt to be felt by other nations.
if sacrificing my life meant a world of peace and harmony, i would gladly meet my fate.

but, let's be realistic.

innocent people will die.
we will continue to bomb.
many nations will feel the pain of terrorist attacks.
no one man's actions can end this war.

but we, not the us, not the afghanistan's, not the u.n., not nato, but the FREE WORLD will defeat these terrorists. we will win.

sadly, it's not an overnight thing. i really do wish it was.

despite your anti-american comments and total lack of respect towards any american posters here, I will continue to pray for your safety, as well as all the innocent afghani's safety.

Ernest Hemingway once wrote, "The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part.

One of the best things i love about america is the image of a country where is freedom of speech, free discussion and that anybody can speak out his opinion.
This is why the U.S. stood and stands for "the free world".

But it seems Nerds like the ones who love bashing and throwing cursewords after my name (lol - kindergarden style) never have been aware about these "benefits" of the U.S.

Its not just me - many intellectuals (also americans, LOT of americans) are beginning to fight for their freedom of speech again. They just hate (like i do) stereotypics like "if u arent FOR us you are AGAINST us". What a difference do our democratys make to the former UDSSR, when journalists are forced to write only what the goverments say - and where journalists and other intellectuals get fired from their jobs or spilled with dirth when they say something that doesnt "fit" in the actual propaganda matrix.

Look - u guys still call me an U.S. "hater".
Its very strange then - that i share many friendships to U.S. friends (i got a visit from a friend from Chicago over the weekend who EXTRA stopped by in vienna to stay in my flat for 3 days - cuz he said "in times like these we must stick together - friends will be friends. idiots just stay idiots." - yeah!). On the other hand most DAMNs are americans - read the clan codex of damn and u will see that i and mauti decide TOGETHER who joins us and who not. (so i must be a very strange U.S. and american "hater") -

But for little clowns like u guys (the usual bunch of idiots), Critism seems not to be allowed  anymore (woah u would have loved it to live in the former UDSSR - muahaha).

Check it: I love the u.s.a but stupid americans like ace, grift, blackhand etc. are a littlebit like the (fukc)Taliban:
Among a lot of cool people there always are some idiots who damage the image of all the others (and usually these idiots are those who SHOUT and curse most - cuz they ve nothing else to say) -

And btw.: i am always critizing my OWN goverment here too (cuz i basically KNOW that most goverments are filled with idiots who just think on the next elections)
Discussions and excange of many points of views made "Democracy" to what it is.

So after ur logic: if i criticise the austrian goverment (what i do very often - thats why i was demonstrating against Haider and his right wing party when they went into coalition with the ?VP) i am an austria-hater? lol!!!!
But all your "Bander hates the U.S" propaganda is just another reflection of your liar-attitudes - so i dont care very much anymore on what u "call me". (my U.S. friends on Gameranger are still my friends - the only morons i had to get rid of emotionally (cuz they stink) had been ace, B.H. and the "wannabe almighty" grifter) -

But who really cares about me and them? we are really not important at all. The only thing we COULD do is excange our thoughts - but the way how some here react towards other opinions just shows they are not really interested in a honest dicussion.

Greets & peace

there's a difference between criticism and personal attacks and insults. you're not debating, you're not bringing a new point of view, you're preaching your anti-american propoganda to us, calling people names, stereotyping, personally attacking, insulting, etc.

for fuck sake stop being a hypocrit.

Well, at the risk of saying something stupid, I'm going to barge in here and give my opinion not having read the other 100+ posts in the thread.  
1. The terrorist were wrong to attack
2. The U.S. was asking for what they got

Now you may say this is unpatriotic, but listen up.  The U.S. has been pushing these smaller countries around for 60 years, trying to Americanize them.  What do you think the Cold War was all about.  We wanted to make every country a democratic capitalist system.  This isn't necesarily the best system for all nations.  Many european nations get along fine with parlimentary monarchies and nearly socialistic systems.  I would argue that their systems work better.  Therefore, who are we to demand our system be in place.  We continue to support revolutions to overthrow governments we deem unfit.  Well, as is the case in Iraq, Afganastan, and Cuba, the present governments that we wish to change got there power through our support.  I see Bander has gotten a bunch of flack from many of you.  I think he is coming in part from the same view point.  All of you need to be a little less patriotic and realize that the U.S. isn't this perfect place that has been terrorized for no reason.  To end this rant I want to repeat, I don't agree with the terrorists attacks, I just see why they would want to attack and hope the U.S. will make the changes in our foreign policy that should have been made long ago.

Fuck off. I am speachless. I can't believe this shit. It's times like this I wish I knew you all in person so I could put my baseball bat to good use.

Tnx Bondo and RESPECT for your post here (i fear now u will be on the bash list too - but i respect u for speaking out your opinion!) -

Bondo: I know i posted some crap here too (and my bad english isnt very helpful when "answering" to posts while feeling very angered and being emotionally upset).

The funny thing is: Basically i tried to say the same what u said - but i was obvously unable to explain myself in a proper way (and some guys here just use EVERY possibility to bash at me here - and others).
This doesnt mean that i "hate" the U.S. - i dont think theres a single country on this planet which always did everything right - i just think its IMPORTANT to analyze the past mistakes to avoid them in future - or to give us the possibility to make this planet a better place for us all! But simply negating what we dont like to hear isnt very helpful for a common future in peace and coexistence. Also we must accept that people from other cultures might see things from another view than we do - this doesnt mean we cant coexist i say - but we need much more sensibility when judging about their "problems" and concernings.

On the other hand the U.S. is very smart also: While european goverments just play the bigmouths and quarrel among their own the americans are at last trying to fix many problems on earth where others just do nothing. (I just say Bosnia/Kosovo - im still ashamed about the euro-politics during this crisis)
I think - when a country is such strong like the U.S. and leads on the "democratys of the free world" (who else should or could?) we need critism to control whats going on! and we need people who discuss how to obtain our respectful goals while making friends to other countrys, goverment types and cultures -

Bondo by the way help me out: i cant find it in my dictonary (maybe they mistype it all the time lol) - what means this: hypocritical - hypocrite. i dunno what it means (i guess they call me a nazi - or something irrational like that. just would like to know what their favorite word means). Tnx a lot.

Bondo, my friend - i hope to meet ya back on GR very soon but actually im watching news most of the time and are angered about my bad pings to r6 games in gameranger! However: My manager is actually talking to your manager about revivaling the Bondo&Bander Show! (Do u have the TV rights or do i? lol)

regards my friend

p.s.: some terrorists wrecked mautis parked car - we need a damn commando here in vienna to smoke em out (hehe - its crazy - but mauti seems cursed with his red "golf" cars)

Bondo, I'm going to tell you a story.

There was once this guy named Bob. He was rich and happy. However, Bob had his fair share of problems. He was the best guy around in town.

In the same town where Bob lived, there were other people, many of whom who were not as privileged as Bob. Some had tiny problems and some had big problems.

Now these poorer people and these troubled people started giving Bob a lot of crap for not helping them out. So Bob, being the nice guy he was started helping these people.

But then the poorer people and the troubled people started giving Bob crap again, this time for doing too much. For interfering with these people?s lives.

Bob was damned if he helped and damned if he didn?t. He couldn?t win with these people. On top of that, Bob had his problems. He was spending more time helping others than helping himself. If Bob tried to help himself, he would have been criticized for being selfish.

However, none of the people Bob was helping ever made so much as an attempt to help Bob. Bob didn?t complain. But still, he was getting a lot of crap from very ungrateful people.

The people thought that Bob was trying to make everyone too much like him self. Of course, we know that this was not what Bob was trying to do.

Then a few crazy people went and chopped off one of Bob?s fingers. It hurt. Bob did not deserve this.

Time passed on and Bob lost all of his money and privilege. Then all the poor people started giving crap to the new rich guy. This new rich guy was just like Bob was before he lost of all his money.

He was damned if he did and was damned if he didn?t. So it goes.

If everyone were to stop posting about this crap, it would all go away. As many people havent realized yet, what you say most likely will NOT change the thinking of any other person on these forums. Bander is entitled to his views (even though I personally disagree) and Ace, blackie, grifter and others are entitled to their views too. I have long since given up on this thread and others on this issue because making sound logical points just doesnt get across to some people. But then again, what may be logical in our eyes may be ludicrous (sp?) in another's eyes and vice versa.

Great story blackhand, but you missed one part. When Bob got his fingers cut off, he still managed to hit the guy with his other fist, and people got angry at this even though it was self-defense.

For one thing, I fully support us attacking the terrorists.  I also have no problem with giving aid to countries or not giving aid, only if the country can ask for it.  We also have to warn countries who have bad human rights violations.  Sure, we may not please everyone, but we wouldn't have forced ourselves on them like Ace on a Jagged post.

Blackie, one other little problem with your story.....

[/color]

The people thought that Bob was trying to make everyone too much like him self. Of course, we know that this was not what Bob was trying to do. - Blackhand[/list]

I think Bob does try to make people like himself... but that's because Bob thinks he's doing the right thing (He absolutely is trying to) and he really wants them to be able to help themselves and be just as sucessful.  And I think that gets right to the core of the forign policy issues.  People want to be as successful as Bob.... People want Bob's help, but they want these things on Bob's terms.  This causes hate and envy, while still wanting all the advantages that Bob has.  It's a personal flaw that flows all the way up to governments.  A country like Cuba for example, has a very hard time fending for itself... it's just too small to be completely self sufficent.  It wants to sell it's products to the people of the US, so it has the money to buy things it can't produce... but the US wont buy.... because we can make all those same things, and/or buy them from people (governments) that we like much better... that don't conflict with our views.  Because the US has such ECONOMIC power.... and just by choosing whom they deal with (if anyone), they wield this power both knowingly or not.  

Another good example is potato's and grain from Canada.... the US produces enough potato's and grain to export.... yet when we stopped importing from Canada (motivated by some isolated crop desiese's in Canada), the Canadian's were up in arms, since it caused a sever downturn in a part of their economy.  

So, to conclude.... even when we it's not a direct effort to help or hurt someone, the US carries such economic power that decisions made on spending (especially if they are to help our own economy) will always cause ripples in other countries.... and will always produce a bitter fruit.  The only thing that will make many people happy is for the US to not be more prosperous then these other countries... but less.

Now, before any of my European friends take this the wrong way.... the better off each country / government is (i.e. prosperous, people healthy, happy, etc) the less this plays a part.  But it's degrees..... almost every country exports goods to America.... so it will always be somewhat of an issue.

i would ask myself - whos that "Bob" guy? Why is he sticking his nose into my problems (he seems to be nice and i dont agree with the people who cut his finger, but i would wonder: why tha hell is this bob guy that interested into myself? (a totally stranger). So i could think "this bob has a plan, but what does he want?". And if i get different "signals" from "bob" too then, i think i would be happier with a "bob" who isnt that interested into my person.

maybe bob really just wants to do me a fovour - but maybe bob just wants my purse ... (lol - try to not be offended again. i just like that "bob" theme here ;)
i think bob needs a nurse for his finger  and some friends who help protect him from these "fingercutters" in future. cheers bob.

First of all... Bob's not a stranger... nobody in this neighborhood are strangers (all the governments talk to each other).  

Second of all, as stated, many people ask for Bob's help... should Bob help people if he thinks they aren't doing the right things?  Shouldn't he know a little about the people he helps.

Thrid, Bob will leave people alone when asked... as long as they leave him alone too.  But when Larry punches Bob in the nose, then hides in Ted's house, Bob's going over to Ted's to kick Larry's ass... and Teb better stay out of the way.  (to answer the question: what did that ever solve... the answer is Larry will think twice about punching Bob ever again, Ted will think twice about getting in the way a second time too if it happens)

Fourth, way too many people envy Bob, and are happy when he hurts.

Fifth, if you want Bob to buy the food you grow, but he doesn't want to because he doesn't believe in slavery, and doesn't want to support it, and you use a slave to farm.... this doesn't make him evil or wrong... it doesn't mean he is forcing you to change the way you live... it means he's choosing to follow his convictions.  So, saying that he'll buy from you if you stop keeping that slave is called diplomacy....

Sixth, It's actually not as easy as I thought to have PS101 discussions in a Mr Rogers group.

Last, Bob, like everyone, makes mistakes.

I like this Bob thing and would like to apply it to another issue.  Bob is this rich and powerful guy, Joe is a poor but happy worker.  Bob feels it is wrong to do smoke pot.  Joe likes to smoke pot to relax from his hard work.  Bob asks Joe to stop smoking pot because he feels it is wrong, he uses his power to make Joe choose between this plesure or jail.  Joe is now unhappy because he is being told what to do by Bob.  He doesn't work as much and becomes unemployed.  Now he is left to struggle along on meager scraps provided from Bob but will go through his life and die very purposefully just because Bob didn't let Joe have his harmless plesure.

LOL!  I don't think your Bob analogy carried on into the great pot debate.... If Bob is a politition now (not the whole government) then nobody likes Bob anyway.  If Bob is still America... what country is Joe?

On the point though... pot and opium were once legal in the US... Alcohol was not legal at one time.  I honestly see very little difference in their uses (there are a few... contact buzz being a major one... you can't get a contact buzz and be a drunk driver because someone in your car is drunk, you can if they smoke pot in your car).  But honestly... it all goes to moderation.  Bob shouldn't care what Joe does in his own home, as long as it's not hurting anyone else.  If Bob keeps going, fat people with food disorders are next.... they wil outlaw twinkies and king dons.  Oh no, then computer addicts... oh no, run, head for the hills.

No, you see Bob is rich american corporate type with political contacts.  Joe on the other hand is poor working guy, possibly working hard to make Bob rich. And then damnit if Bob doesn't show his thanks by ruining Joe's life.  Either way the whole thing is funny and pointless because unlike Bob, we have little political power.

Bob smokes pot.

Maybe that's it, Bob smokes pot and sells it to Joe, but then Bob busts Joe for it and then continues to smoke it, coming back from a successful entrapment of another unlucky scmuck.

Okay - there is Bob and Joe who have their differences. Lets say there is also a "Abdul".

Abdul is living in a dirthy house at the end of the street, cuz he has no job and is dressed poor the richer people like Joe and Bob have their quarrels but both ignore him. For years they where not even interested into Abduls problems but suddenly both (Bob and Joe) appear in front of his home, throw stones into his windows cuz there are rats in his cellar (and people fear infections). Bob and Joe tell Abdul that they dont mean him any bad. But Abdul maybe still remembers the House of "Said" wich was razed some years ago by Bob and Joe - cuz it didnt fit into the neighbourhood (now its replaced by a supermarket). So Abdul thinks: They usually dont care about me and now they want to kill my rats (wich Abdul usually is forced to eat  to survive). Abdul would like to be able to trust the neighbours from the big houses. But all he can see is broken window glass and his destroyed garden. And at the end Abdul will be angry and ask himself "why did they "feed" the rats in my cellar with cheese in the beginning? Now when those rats are biting the neighbours children they destroy Abduls windows for harboring them - but when Abdul asked for help cuz the rats bite his own children  earlier, Bob and his Friends said: This is your hourse abdul! u must take care of it yourself or pay us for helping u getting rid of those rats.

hmmm... poor Abdul....

Now, you left out the part where Bob and Joe asked Abdul to take care of the problem first.  You left out the part where Bob and Joe offered to come into Abdul's house and take care of it for him.  You also left out the part where a small group of there rats went out and KILLED some of Bob and Joe's children.

So, while Bob and Joe may have helped Abdul get rid of some snakes by providing cheese to feed the rats with long ago, it's still Abdul's house... and it's Abdul's responsibility to control what happens in and from his house.  Abdul had a snake problem, which Bob and Joe assisted in by giving him some rats.  Now, Bob and Joe left it alone and the rats are a big problem.  YES, the rats were probably not the best solution in the first place, but it sereved Abdul's (and Bob &  Joe's) needs at the time.  

You also left out the part that breaking the windows also included the door, and running into the basement to kill the rats themselves, since Abdul not only didn't seem interested in killing the rats (or handing them over), But Abdul seemed pleased that the rats had caused pain to both Bob and Joe.

So since they all live in the same neighborhood, when the problem spreads to other houses, it's up to the whole neighborhood to come together and stomp out the problem (don't read that as war... it's problem solving I'm talking about... war is only one way, and usually not the best way.... unfortunatly, often, it's the only way).

So, if Abdul can't manage his own home, and it starts to hurt others in the neighborhood.... his home gets condemmed and torn down.. and he's forced to move in with family... somone that can manage the home.  At least that's how this story plays out in the 'burbs.

Bondo, ok, I didn't see Bob as the corporate boss that makes employees take a drug test.... while still doing the drugs himself.  But let's not forget the other actor there... the evil Blair (aka insurance companies).  Blair is the one really forcing Bob to do this, since Blair loses money when Joe has health problems.  And Blair has lots or reports that say DRUGS (including alcohol, but he can't do much about that one) cost him a bunch of money in health care benefits.  Now Blair is a greedy fuck.  Any money Blair doesn't make is a loss to him... Joe doesn't mean a thing to Blair, and Bob is only Blair's customer.  What Blair wants is Bob's money for taking care of Joe, but not to take care of Joe at all.  Blair is all about Greed.  It's Blairs greed that is the major push behind Bob not wanting pot legal.

But Al knows a better way, he tells the government to nationalize heath insurance, thus making Blair unemployed and giving Joe equal care as Bob, Blair, and Al.  He feels that everyone should have equal health care even if they don't have equal money.  This means Blair has no reason to tell Bob to keep pot illegal.  Therefore, Bob and Joe both organize to fight for the legalization and they both live hapily ever after.

There's the rub of it.

Blair doesn't want the government to provide national health care.  And since Blair provides gobs and gobs of money to the polititioins, helping them get elected and stay that way, as long as they do what Blair wants.... well, they do what Blair wants.

Then there's Mike, who stands next to Al, warning of the problems associated with National Health Care.  The fact that since there is money to be made in health care lots of money) it keeps inovation moving forward.  Mike tells us that things like MRI's and AIDs research are more advanced in America because that money is a motivation.  He also says not to mistake the fact that the FDA in America holds back treatments until it is very satisfied (which tends to be painfully longer then Europeans and Canadians), this is already because of the government, and not impacted at all by National Health Care.  He also mentions the higher taxes and actually higher mortallity rate found in the countries that have national health care already.

Mike would have some valid points (not all are proof, many of them could only be disproved by attempting national health care, but that's the rub, try it and it may be too late to reverse it).  Between Mike pointing out that there is no perfect solution (sorry Al) and big bags of money from Blair (the real motivation) I don't think Al's experiment will ever get attempted.

Then there is "A Fucking Moron" who is "A Fucking Moron"  he has no thought, mainly because he is "A Fucking Moron" .  Actually, he has no point in this debate other than the fact that I wanted to say "A Fucking Moron" a few times  ;)

P.S. "A Fucking Moron" is a fictional character, any relation to anyone you know (Rom) is purely coincidental.

LMAO,

Hey, every neighborhood has it's tardo's.  In Bob's neighborhood he lives right next door to Abdul, claims to live at Blairs, put's on a disguise and pretends to be Al, and still get's mocked.

Hm. In my story abdul isnt the goverment (like bob) is. i used abdul as a "ordinary citizen" sheme (so abdul doesnt fit here). lol. i just wanted to try to expand this - fun but too hard (english lag for me)

Well either you have English Lag, or you majorly German Host Kill us.

after reading how complicated his story was and the intricate web of neighbors and animals surrounding his house, bob is very confused. bob like it better when bob was the only named character of his story and he didn't have to deal with all these crazy misfits.

on the other hand, bob has struck a movie deal with a big shot producer. bob has just added another one million to his fortune. bob thinks he'll splurge and buy himself a six-pack of fresca.

And yes, it comes full circle... and everyone wants to be Bob again.

Bander, in my analogy... Abdul is a government... in this case, the Taliban (since they control Afghanistan at this time.... well, as much as anyone does).  

I think the important part of the analogy is that since there is no police force in this neighborhood (there isn't a world wide police force... closest thing is the UN.. and that's kind of a joke)... since there isn't... the people of the neighborhood have to take the law into their own hands.  Never the best solution, but when faced with the threat of danger, something has to be done.  The shame of it is that Abdul has a family... and they can get hurt when Bob and the other people from the neighborhood go into Abdul's house to try to make things better.  

Bad guys don't stand in the open and fight.. they hide behind innocent people.  So the question has always been... how do you get the bad guys without hurting any of the innocents... and how many innocents do you sacrafice before it's too many.... after all... how many will these bad guys kill if not stopped?  Also... you have to be careful not to create more bad guys because they don't see the picture the same way.. and think that it's ok to be terrorists.

Ok, you guys are all morons, you forgot about George. George saw all these posts and was way to tired to think about it all and keep up. So George just said "Don't mess with Texas" and bombed everyone else.

Hmm Mr. Grifter. ALWAYS when i post something here u turn it into a way that makes me appear stupid.

THIS IS WHAT I WROTE BEFORE YOUR LAST POST:
"Hm. In my story abdul isnt the goverment (like bob) is. i used abdul as a "ordinary citizen" sheme (so abdul doesnt fit here). lol. i just wanted to try to expand this - fun but too hard (english lag for me) "

And you - Grifter AGAIN turn it that way that i support those Taliban Bastards with that story. I can remember to have been accused by you to not read your posts - but as it seems u dont even read such "small" ones like the one (mine) above.

By the Way: Lets stop that stupid "funny" story. People die in masses due to the Bombings now (Mosque, Hospital, UN Workers, Civilian Homes) - of course u will insist "they all died due to their own stupidy" (as someone already said here). Also the Northern Alliance People are just useful idiots to the "west" now - as i can read in the web and see in the news.
But seems the U.S. are still listening to the Pakistani Dictator and his "Goverment" (+ the ISI Secret service). Those Pakistanis are bastards, snakes, liars and had been (and still are maybe) the main source of the taliban movement. As long the U.S. stick to the wrong "Partners" this whole operation is doomed and all your "colateral" damage is senseless.

I also heared reports that U.S. Bombers attacked NA Forces on the frontlines too (by mistake) - what the hell?

Bander... I turned nothing around, but did the EXACT same thing as you.... explained my position.  Yes, lord forbid that I was actually makeing a point.  

Get over yourself Bander.  There are those of us here discussing a current topic.  There was no mock (intended or otherwise) of you in my previous post (unlike this one).  As for reading your post... I did.  Maybe you should read my post witout your "it's mocking Bander" twist to it.

As for me making you look stupid Bander... it's not me.. you are doing a fine job of it all by yourself.  I read your post.  I heard what you had to say.  I then wrote what my meaning was.... hmmmm... sounds logical to me.  I don't understand your obsession with taking ANYTHING I say and turning it into something insulting you, Bander...

Oh, and a last thing... you seem to be as anti-Pakistan as anyone here as been anti-Afghanistan... for someone telling the rest of us that we are full of shit for all the hate, you seem to have quite a bit yourself.  Oh, but that's ok, you are Bander after all and these are YOUR forums.... so please, continue...

Bander, people like you scare me.  People that don't understand something, and so they lash out at it.  All the worse, they *appear* intelligent, which initially lends weight to their arguments.  But in reality, you are just a very opinionated ass, that has mild paranoia ("Mr. Grifter, ALWAYS when I post something you turn it....").  

Like I said.  If you are at all interested in intelligent debate over issues (as many of us here are), then remove yourself from the center of your universe and read what is said without any slant.

Trust me, if I want to call you a jackass... I will come right out and say it.

Aside from how this all got off topic when everyone ganged up on Bander......

I think this thread is still current.  I still don't approve of the war.  Anyone else have comments?

8)8)8) LOL the title of this thread was terrorist debate BUT......BUT its now smething about strange little characters that my buds GRIFT and BONDO  have created i know a publisher if u would like to publish this story ;)

Jagg, those little people are also known as Tony Blair, the Prime Minister of Britain.