*DAMN R6 Forum

     Meh. The old saw is true; you get what you pay for. Excepting home-built examples, PCs are not that much cheaper than Macs. Cheaper, yes. Dramatically cheaper, no. Once you tally up the amount of crap you get inside a Mac's case (especially in the newer models), and the overall quality of the hardware and engineering, the price differential evens out significantly.

     But all that aside, I'm willing to pay the Apple fee because I really and truly love using a computer that just works, all of the time, every time. Inefficiency grates on me. I don't want to fight with my computer, I want to use it. In my experience, a Mac is the best choice for fulfilling that criteria. So I use one.

Beefy, just got to the local library and play around a pc. It's free and will you give you a good example of how incredibly shitty those gray boxes are, after about 5 minutes you'll stand up and walk away. I almost guarntee it. Apple is quality, and it is true you get what you pay for.

Depends on your economic situation...

We all know macs are best, but PC's are so goddamn cheap
A 2Ghz PC for 500? !!!!

Im still in the middle havent made my mind up either.

Ps. If you want a cheap mac (dont know if it really will end up as cheaper, but it seems so). I planned on buying a G4 power mac 400Mhz, now that comp is so old that you can get pretty cheap. Then buy a CPU upgrade and make it a 1.4Ghz Power mac, buy some ram and your done....  ;) :)

Acording to my calculations this would be the cheapest way, im pretty sure  ;)  (the total price would be close to 1000-1500? for a 1.4Ghz powermac) (not dual)  ;D

Just a thought...

You might wanna check this out: http://www.gigadesigns.com/

I don't care about Peecee hardware, although it is quite ugly. But every Microsoft OS is undeniably a piece of shit. They crash like none other, they are ugly, and they lack the speed, efficiency, and ease of use that OS X has. Maybe when OS X comes to PC (ha!) I would consider it.

My whole life I only owned and used Macs - I started with a Classic II, which still works great and is really enough as "writing machine" (Word 5.1 is one of the best and most simple text apps)! Still boots as fast as every Mac nowadays ;) (must be the tiny OS).

My really first "computer" was a iMac 400 DV Se, I bought back in 1999, and I'm still using. The reason why I bought it was because it was the cheapest Computer(PC and Mac) you could get for videoediting. The builtin FireWire and iMovie made it the best choice. No PC, except the extremly expensive Vaio  Notebooks, allowed videoediting out of the box. I calculated that an upgraded PC for videoediting would cost 1000US Dollar more than my iMac. The speed difference was also only 100Mhz so I didn't care much about that.

Today in the same situation I would probably pic a PC for 1000 Dollar less that is much faster than any Mac out there(until G5s arrive) and also allows videoediting out of the box!

Honestly there is not much that would keep me using a Mac: Yes the OS is great but you also get used to Windows pretty fast. Gamewise the PC is unbeatable: games run great and how much would I love to keep modding for RS and GR as I did for Rainbow Six.

So why I would and will still buy a G5!? - Macs have great software for video and picture editing(Final Cut Pro is simply the best), you don't have to fear any bad viri(plural of virus). The first Mac virus is ranked 78th in the list of dangerous viri. I already own much software for it,  Macs aren't that fast out of date(may this will change with the new aggressive roadmap of the G5s) and Macs run forever(see my Classic II still works great after 12years and has a market value of 800(!!!) US Dollar).

To sum up if you buy a computer to work with it buy a Mac because it will save you a lot of time and troubles but if you are only interested to play games, write some textes, and surf the web get a cheap and fast PC!

Bye,

Mauti
ps.: back to your question: yes Apple is selling overpriced goods - so never buy RAM, Harddisks from Apple, get such things from a PC store. iPods are also very expensive but it is simply the coolest Mp3 player ;) When will I get mine???-> Gimme MONEY!

Not to play devil's advocate, but I've been spending half my time on a Dell running XP up here at the ranch where I work, and it crashes just about as often as my Mac does. Heck, it hasn't crashed all week that I've been up here. And yes, I use it for all the same things. Games, graphic design, webpages, everything.

I don't remember the price exactly, but it was less than $1000 for a P4 1.8Ghz, 256 RAM, 20 gig HD, 15" LCD monitor, speakers (surprisingly good), keyboard, and a two button scroll wheel mouse, something Apple STILL hasn't figured out. And this was nearly a year ago, so I'm sure the price has dropped another fair bit by now.

And y'know what? XP ain't all that bad. Once you get it off the fugly blue and green theme and back to the efficient grey boxes, it runs beautifully. Turn off all its fades and shtick if you, like me, just want stuff to pop up quick so you can select what you want from the menu and move on. Hell, I even made my own start menu in my Mac's apple menu. Makes launching stuff loads faster. It's not worse.... just... different.

   
 

The crash myth is a relict from the old days - nevertheless MS products often crash without a reason and even without activated: at university I often experience this at some courses: Outlook Express caused an error XY(wasn't started at all), and also often Windows ME on my VPC gives me errors without a reason. Nevertheless this happens but all in all Windows doesn't crash very often nowadays and isn't an arguement to stick with Macs.

If you start from the ground, meaning your expensive bought software for Macs isn't suddenly useless, there is no reason not to buy a PC. If you already own much software it doesn't make any sense to buy a PC because then the prize advantage isn't anymore.

Another reason to buy macs is security but I think that doesn't play a big role for most of us.

From the technical site you can do everything on a PC you can do on a Mac(only software may be different).

So what keeps us away from all buying a cheap PC? - Is it the totaly vanless iMac that works perfectly as small server or nonstop download machine!? - Is it the lower energy costs? - Is it the unique look and feel? - Is it the private feeling within the community? - Is it the tiny Apple logo?

Objective there isn't a reason not to trade your Mac with a PC but subjective may there are many!

Bye,

Mauti

well, despite the fact you seem to have alrady made up your mind beefy, i still hold that a macintosh is a more favorable machine. why?

the microsoft OS is archaic technology. sure, it runs games "well" (or could it be it just has more games and fancier graphics cards?) and they're cheaper, but thats about all it has going for it. Windows is actually an emulation off the motherboard, so it needs a faster processor to get the job done. It's inefficient, put bluntly. These "2 Ghz" numbers mean very little, because they're equivalent to the numbers of a macintosh with less mhz. So basically, you pay a little less for a machine of equal speed and crappier hardware/software.

also, considering all the progress apple is making, i don't think i'd want to jump ship just yet.

but whatever, if you want a PC it's no big deal. PCs are admittedly better for things like piracy, cheesy RPGs, and compatibility. It's also nice how interchangable the parts are. I build PCs for people almost every day, and while i hate them, they are fun to make. I always end up feeling like Dr Frankenstein after making one.

but as a final argument in favor of the mac, jesus christ PCs are so ugly  :-X

I'm working a full time job during the day at stony brook university and then a full time job at night at a italian ice store. I will be making around 3,000 dollars this summer and what am I going to buy with it ?

A dell

Why?

I love Games

period

Looking at my desk i have a G4 with osX and a Dell XPS p3 800 with redhat...
and i must say that i don't mind pcs, but windows doesn't do it for me.

I'm an intern in the webdesign industry, and i use two computers, a G4 and a new 'fast' PC. I do most of the work on the PC simply because it is faster, and the G4 is running os9 so i can test things in really old netscape browsers and i hate os9. I don't really like using the PC simply because it doesn't handle things very well when the desktop/screen is cluttered. Another thing that i don't like about the PC i use at work is that windows networking sucks, if its not showing up, just wait till it does. XP hasn't crashed yet, but i managed to bring the G4 crashing down a few times daily just by viewing pages in the intranet in netscape...

Out of all the computers i use my old slow G4 is my favorite, osX is great. Its like linux, but without the suck of having to compile things from source, makefiles, and installing new drivers for something like a mouse.

The way a mac looks has a whole lot to do with things, simply because apple puts so much time in presentation, and the end user. I like apple, because they really think about the details.

Btw, XP is using cutting edge NT technology from the 90s.

I've probably used more different types of systems (Mac, Windows, Linux, BSD, Solaris, etc.) than most anyone here, and I can say that the Mac is unequivocally the most productive system around. The key word there is productive. Sure, you can buy faster PC hardware for cheaper (ignoring the G5 on the high end). You can also get a free OS and free software from the Linux and BSD camps. But in the end, nothing of these are more valuable than my time, and the Mac is what lets me use my time on the computer to the fullest. One of the biggest reasons is the vertical integration of hardware and software with the needs of the end user in mind.

In January, I bought my Cube on eBay for $670. I could have just as easily gone out and built a faster PC that would have gamed way better than the Cube. However, like most Mac owners, my computer is much more than just a gaming machine. The Cube is able to run OS X where I can do my programming, word processing, web browsing, and gaming all in the same place. It gives me essentially two different OS's, one Mac and one Unix. You can't beat this on any PC, no matter what the speed.

you know what ill give it to you beefy that apples are overpriced but you want to know how many PCs have had major problems while my dualG4 500mhz lives on? 2, exploded power supply which actually broke again cause the motherboard couldnt handle the faster RAM and the dell im typing this on.  Both CD drives are busted and the power supply makes a funny noise.  PCs cheaper yes, in both senses but considering how many times my G4 has had computer threatening problems 0,  Apple VS PCs.  apple wins 0-2.  

Maybe one thing to add pc is cheaper but doesnt a mac lives longer then your pc, if i read things here buying 1mac is abit the same as buying a 2 pc's
I got a new mac every 3 years at the end new games start to get abit slowly but their still playable and then when the games come i cant run anymore my "new"(a good one but abit old so its lowered in price) mac is there

Any PC that is NOT custom built sucks.  

I built my PC from components ordered from www.newegg.com (best site ever).
 Let?s see, I have:

- 2.4BGHz Pentium 4(system bus 533MHz).
- VIA P4PB 400 motherboard with on board: 6x USB 2.0, 2x IEEE 1394, 10/100 Ethernet controller (I don't need gigabit), 6 channel audio (didn't need this since I decided to go with SoundBlaster), AGP 8x (woot), 5 PCI slots.
- 120GB Maxtor HD
- Kingston DDR 333 520MB RAM (motherboard is capable of DDR 400 and up to 3GB).
- 19" flat CRT monitor that saved some bucks instead of going LCD).
- Radeon 9700 pro; best card there was when I ordered several months ago.
- Creative labs SoundBlaster live, Dolby digital 5.1 (very nice reverberation, especially in RS).
-16x DVD, 52x CD-RW.  I went for the cheapest price here.
-  Gray and black case with 350W power supply (http://images10.newegg.com/productimage/11-150-029-16.JPG), 6 external bays for CD/DVD    drives and floppy. 3 internal bays for HDs. I chose not to spend more for a fancy case, still not bad.
- Logitech wireless keyboard and mouse. I prefer the old optical ownage mouse used with the iBook.

I got all that BS for about $1300, can you believe that?!  Of course, I still had to assemble everything myself which took almost half the day without much help from manuals.  

The only downside about building your own computer would be the warranty and the idea of "if you screw up, you're on your own."  Since the entire system isn't covered, instead manufacturers usually provide assistance for only THEIR product (lifetime warranty on Kingston memory muahahahaha).  This is where Apple wins with it's Apple Care plan, too bad I didn't extended the warranty before the iBook CD drive stopped reading CD-RWs and the shitty Toshiba HD decided to weak out.

Now as for Microsoft Windows XP, I easily adapted from OS X. But some issues with XP that pisses me off and makes me wish I had OS X, cocoa anyone?  First, the tons of ports opened like NetBIOS (good thing Intego has Netbarrier for windows) and the way MS forced XP service pack1 to act as if MSN messenger is a vital application.  Second, XP's NT core as to OSX's BSD.  This is where http://cygwin.com/ saves the day and provides most of the Linux API with UNIX utilities and console commands (mmm gcc).

Everything else is clockwork. Firebird instead of IE because of tabbed browsing and popup blocker. No switching back and fourth OSX to OS9 to play RS or GhR. Even though GhR sucks, but not as much as RvS and the way it owns my computer with weak FPS and slowdowns. I won't even start on the game play.

Anyways.... that's just my experience.

ELECTRONICJO IS TEH DEVIL!

      I didn't even know ejo was still a member of this forum. ejo is now officially the "Lurker" Flame Warrior.

i have...lets see, something like six macs in my house, ranging from the original gray box mac(which still works perfectly) to a new iMac running OSX besides the p.o.s perfoma 6400(which i destroyed dling stuff) all the macs run fine. muati is right, the original word processing systems are better than anything out there today, more stream lined. i just recently spent a year in italy and used a PC the whole time. ugly, not easy to use, and i missed my mac. i use macs because they are easier to use, prettier, have a rabid following, and plus im just obstinante enough to not buy a PC cause they are the popular thing out there(like not reading harry potter) i will always stick with the mac

I'm completely and totally in love with my Mac.  First, the OS is just too smexy to part with and with a few added tweaks it can be made even smexier.  Second, if I was to run out and get a PC, it would be only for gaming, which would only distract me more. A PC would simply be my "gaming machine," which could be a waste of money.

Sure PCs are cheaper, but as you've read so far, they brake down.  Windows would also be a big hassle.

     PCs are lacking that certain ineffable something that makes a Mac so enjoyable to use. They're also missing a few quite effable somethings, such as Apple's top-to-bottom design based around the user. Macs are consciously and specifically designed to adapt to the user, to do what the user wants. PCs are unconsciously designed to force the user to adapt to the PC. As I've said before, I want to use my computer, not fight with it over dominance. I'm OK with only having a tenth of the games in exchange for getting ten times more work done.

So that's the real definition of "wetware."

All I can say is you will be very sorry if you waste your money on a pc. I have them at work and I can't stand even looking at them, once I get on it...omg...talk about a piece of crap. I could never ever imagine buying a pc.

And look at this, if you want a pc for gaming, sure you get all the games first, but you play with thousands of ppl..you never really get to know anyone unless your a game junkie and can spend hours a day finding your clan and arranging battles. And then you have to deal with the countless hackers and cheaters, windows based machines and games are easily hacked and therefore are completely bullshit.

I'd rather play 4-5 games with maybe 2 cheaters than play 100 games with a couple thousand cheaters....just my opinon..take it for what it's worth.

     You probably won't regret it. : D

yea, goto a PC forum and see if you get swayed.

hey guys, I think you all know that I would never buy a PC. b/c I wouldnt be dumb enough to spend my hard earned money on a piece of junk.  Anyway, I am currently having a big debate right now on the same issue (mac vs. PC) and I am responding to this guy I know on a school LAN forum (not on net, so I cant reveal his identity, sorry) ) about this topic and he is PRO PC and doesnt like macs.  
I want to post his last comment here and I would like others (including loth and Mauti, etc) to reply with their honest and unbiased replies about this guys comments.  

Here's his post:

------
Go DELL

Mac's have VERY limited software support. Keep this in mind, as you'll be paying more money for software that is easily available on the PC platform. Hardware failure, look to spend $50 an hour to get rid of your problems.

Don't get me wrong, Mac's are "ok", I have one, but trying to get support/software..I've often been hung out to dry. I'm also a "pc person", with little interest in Mac..so don't ask me about Mac.

Dell.com offers the best value/pricing and has Intel processors under the hood.

I don't think a Mac fanatic can argue that the PC platform is the most widely supported. Consider this, how many friends do you have on your block that have mac's in a production setting versus PC? This counts when you want support/help..

------
So what is yer rebuttle on this guys?? Is what he is saying have any truth?? or is he just plain wrong?

Nom's

ps. I would really appreciate comments from serious posts, thank you!

     I've never had any trouble getting support, on the three or four occasions I've needed it in over a decade of Mac ownership. Assuming you can't fix whatever problem it is yourself, it's not a difficult matter to find your Authorized Apple Retailer (tm) and have them do the work. 99% of the time, when something has gone wrong with my Mac, it's been a problem that is easily repairable by a confident user. I just haven't needed support from the pros.

     Regarding the software support, I'm not sure whether he's talking out his ass or not about the pricing. Sure, games are more expensive on the Mac (because our version is new, and the PC version is six months old), but in non-games, the prices are comparable, if not equal. Photoshop is the same price on both platforms, Quicken is actually a few dollars cheaper on the Mac, and if the Mac version of Microsoft Office is equal to the PC Office XP Standard Edition, then the Mac version is $111 more. If the Mac version is equal to the PC Pro version, then the Mac version is considerably cheaper (but I doubt that).

     Then he mentions personal support, the "friends and family" network of people you can bug about your problems. I've seen people ask for help on predominantly PC message boards. I've seen people ask for help on predominantly Mac message boards. In the latter case, the asker generally gets lots of help pretty quickly. In the former case, the asker is usually lucky if they get one or two responses. There's a Mac community, and personally, I like that.

Hey loth, thnx for the reply but i have a couple questions for you.

1.You mention at the end of yer post that mac has a community, and I agree, but are you saying that PC doesn't??

2. The post I put up of this guy I know makes a comment on something that I dont understand and I was hoping (or anyone else) can explain to me.  He says, "Consider this, how many friends do you have on your block that have mac's in a production setting versus PC? This counts when you want support/help.."
What does he mean by production setting??

thanks again for the replies

Well I can't say much to that: first if you had a Mac Rogue Spear/Ghost Recon issue I think it was answered or at least tried to answer. So the size of a community isn't the deciding point it is more how helpful the community is. Further there aren't that many different systems or system combinations so most questions can be answered by and for many people.

However I never needed technical support: the only issues I had with my iMac were 2 complete harddisk fallouts(once the bootsection got erased and once the hd heads were broken) but this were standard PC hardware components so...

Software is mostly prized the same.

To use a Mac or PC depends on the tasks you have to do and often your emotional attitude. Of course for gaming the PC is the non plus ultra, period, but only the fact that I don't have to worry about driver issues and that my hardware is very reliable let me use Macs.

About getting software cheap(warezing): you get as much warez as for the PC. (if this is a good thing is another question).

If you have the money to buy a highend PC or a G5: I would say it is an emotional decision: if you have always used PCs you will stick with them and same for Mac user. May the last years were a little bit different because of the performance lack but remember when the G4 came out the MHz difference was only 100 - 200 Mhz and now with the G5 we have closed the performance gap and so I think we are back at a point where your decision won't base on bare facts.

I'll get a G5 and will be happy with it for the next 4 - 5 years! I'm using my iMac now almost 4 years and I'm very satisfied with it.

Think different,

Mauti

In response to Nomad's 2nd post:

He just want to ask how many friends of you have a Mac or a PC -> how many people could help in the case of a bad problem. Most of my friends use Macs. I helped several times Bander with his old G3 beige issues and even I often helped friends with PCs that had issues with their video output. In the case of my harddisk crashes Elandrion helped me out with his firewire disks.

Bye,

Mauti

Mauti, thnx for the reply.

You mentioned in your post that when the g4's were out there was only about 100-200 Mhz difference and that now that the g5's are out the performance gap has shortened.  Are you saying that P4's (or other PC) where faster than the g4's??  or do you mean that the g4's were 100-200 Mhz faster than the current fastest PC out there?
The reason I ask is b/c  I thought the g4 was faster than the P4 and now that the g5 is out there, there isn't any PC comp out there that even comes close to the g5??  Am I right in saying this, Mauti?

thnx

What I wanted to say is that back in the days when the G4 came out PCs and Macs were performancewise equally. So the decision to buy a Mac or PC wasn't influenced by speed!

In the last 1 - 2 years the PC had also a very well arguement that he just performed better than any Mac.

Now with the G5 this pro PC arguement isn't accurate anymore, at least for the moment. So your decision to go by Mac or PC doesn't base on speed/performance facts(if the G5 is really that fast or even faster will be proven once they are shipping). It is more again an subjective decision: if you play almost only games, which OS you prefer, which software do you prefer...

That was my point.

Bye,

Mauti

Keep it coming!!! I need some more posts replying to my original 1st post on what this guy said and what is yer rebuttle??

Feedback plz

thnx

Funny you say that this person says apple has bad support when actually they received an A or A+ from www.pcmag.com along with Dell.  What about Apple Stores? They are in nearly every main city about in about 30+ states and they can answer any questions.  GR is pretty good tech support too if u find the right person.  and uhhhhhh but the pcmag thing is cool A for Apple man moooooooooooooo

     There is a PC community, but it seems to be based on shared negatives (exchanging Windows horror stories, talking about how much X program crashes, and so on). The Mac community is based on a shared quality as well, but in that case, it's a shared positive (or at least neutral) thing: ownership of a Mac. Besides which, you've probably noticed that Mac users are, on average, much nicer people than PC users. Come to think of it, I suspect that that is one thing that detracts from the possibility of an overall PC community: any potential community is immediately overrun by dickheads. There are tons of communities of PC users, but they're not PC-user communities. They're people who are together for some other reason, who happen to use PCs. On the other hand, when Mac users are together, for whatever reason, there's always the underlying "hey, we're all Mac users" vibe. Which I, for one, like. : )

Hey Cow,

It would be great, infact awesome, if you can give me the exact link at pcmag with Apples score.  But great info.

Nom's

Keep them coming ppl, I love these answers.  Again, these are for serious posts only, thnx.

Nom's

I always have that feeling when I walk into an Apple store.  It's like a cult  ;)

Face it, it just does'nt get any smexier than Jaguar ( maybe Panther will, but I dunno yet ). Mac OS interface is just plain beautiful. Would you like to have a jagged piece of gravel or a nice smooth marble?

                    pcslut(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/sleeping.gif)                      ::)Macattack

Ok you, watch it with my smexier word now.

I think for me, it comes down to this between mac and pc's. PC's are cheaper than mac's. It's true. That's what does it for me.

What disadvantages does my pc have, well, lets see... i don't get applecare..hmm.. what else....rare crashing, mac community isn't there(i miss you guys - some of you), lack of the wonderful OS X - aqua and bsd..mmmm

Now what advantages does it have?  Very fast computer for a very affordable price, more freedom(you can build your own, not customize on apple's site, actually buy each part for the cheapest you can find, and build it),  all the new games that come out, lots of software, bigger gaming community...

Basically, my point is, if money is what is holding you to choose between a mac and pc, I would get a pc. It's plain and sample, faster macs are very expensive, and you can buy an affordable pc, that is uber fast. For the price, get a pc. If I had a lot of money to spend(2000 dollars), i would definitely get one of those ownage dual g4 towers...but I don't. That's my take.

Kilzo - I know how much you like your colorful imac(purple), so i found this case for you if you get a pc - Don't use really long links (http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=11-125-267-01.JPG/11-125-267-11.JPG/11-125-267-09.JPG/11-125-267-10.JPG/11-125-267-06.JPG/11-125-267-05.JPG/11-125-267-08.JPG/11-125-267-07.JPG)

Btw, I just bought a 2.4C ghz processor - the one with a 800mhz fsb! WOOT. I also got a new mobo - based on the 865PE chipset. ABIT IS7. I can't wait!!!!

xoclipse

     Xo, how much did you spend on your PC to build it (and how long ago was that?), and how much have you spent on hardware since to keep it current?

Actually that's not true, you CAN customize on the apple website, you dont have to take what the default model comes with.

What he is meaning is that you can customize the motherboard and all other stuff while you are very limited on the Mac side.

Bye,

Mauti

Acctually it is possible, pretty much as it is on PC's. You can buy a shell and start building even with macs. (yes i see the limited, but its not anymore limited than it is on PC's...not much anyways)

www.gigadesigns.com

http://www.powerlogixstore.com/pc/viewCat.asp

Not stepping on ya toes mauti  ;D

Utlimo

dont do it!!! thats exactly what i did. I bought a 1.6 p4 256 ram 60 gb, and XP pro for only $1,100 back in dec 2001. I thought it would replace my G3 350 mhz 512 ram 20 gb Mac. So please consider buying a PC. I know you want it for games. Just give it a thought man. The games are cool.  And if you do, get a 128mb video card.

- J47

Is it just me.....or did you just torpedo your own statement   ;D  :D

...dont get a PC....please get one...  ??? ??? maybe im just too tired

JokaKutiHuti -
I advices him not to get a PC. however the games that come out for it are cool. But if decides to go buy one, to atleast get one with a 128mb v-card. Why? for the GAMES!
Is that a clear?

-J47 ::)

Actaully, xoclipse you can build your own mac without the customizable features in the Apple Store.  This coming from a Macworld Issue a few months ago, but I have summarized it.  I think I may have also forgot a few things also so bare with me since I threw into the recycling bin sometime ago.

Purchase a Mac-compatible old beige box on ebay.  Purchase a processor from Sonnet Technolgies or some other place.  Buy the best ram for the cheapest price.  Purchase a retail video card from a computer store near you.  That's all I remember, sorry.

If you plan on gaming mainly, without a doubt go PC.

I'm looking in to making a PC soon, so last night I was messing around with seeing what I can build and for how much.

CPU:Athlon XP 3000+ 400FSB=$275(why AMD? they are cheaper and alittle faster then intel)
video card:Radeon 9800pro 128mb(why not 256mb? from what I hear the games that are in development wont take advantage of the extra 128mb of ram)=$270
system memory:1GB of DDRAM(on one stick, could be cheaper with 2 sticks but this enables better upgading)=$169
case /w power supply:11 bays /w 500watts(it was just a quick pick, you don't need that much)=$32
HD:40GB 7200RPM,ATA133,2mb cashe=$58
motherboard:400FSB,400DDRAM,ATA133,AGP8x,audio,6xUSB 2.0,LAN,ATX=$61
CD drive:CD-RW 52x24x52=$36

Total:$901 for a top of the line PC
If you need a another monitor you can get a 19inch CRT for $124
all PC parts above were gathered from www.pricewatch.com

so for little over $1000 you can top of line uber PC, and G5s start at $2000 not including a monitor. And if you were to get a duel processor you wasting money, most games wont use the 2nd processor.

PCs have a MUCH large gaming selection/community and you don't have to wait a year for the new games :o

if your geting opions from a mac community what do you think they would say? if you were to ask a PC community, they would be stuned then laugh and might say, "mac? games?LOLOLOL!!!!11!!".  so take in to consiteration who your geting your info from.

So if your just going to game GO GET A PC.

That's also what most mac user have said here!: if you only want a machine for gaming get a PC or console, period.

Btw I wouldn't suggest you an AMD processor. They are slightly cheaper but performancewise they are behind - look at www.tomshardware.com. I would suggest you to get a P4 with at least 3.06Ghz and a 800FSB which increases the performance significantly or wait until the P5 comes out in the end of this year and then P4 prises will drop like flies.

Bye,

Mauti

The explanation to why we don't get games until a year or more later or how PCs have more games is because of all the Major Mac gaming companies, Pangeasoft is the only to my knowledge that produces games for Mac.  The other major companies, Aspyr, Macsoft, Ambrosia, Feral, Macplay and Graphsim just port games to Mac or produce "free" 3d games that you can play online at their website.

     Ambrosia makes their own games, too. When they do, the games are released for the Mac first. Ambrosia has been doing quite a bit of porting lately, which is a Good Thing?, but don't think that that's all they do. Their first business is making utilities and games for the Mac.

Well I am not gonna go through all the pages here, I just want to put in my opinion.

We live in a world where barely anybody has a computer. Most people even in the industrialized world dont have a computer. People are more concerned about getting a computer than worrying about all the little advancements. They need email and word processing and that is all most people who are looking for their first computer need. Gates Dell IBM understand this so they are offering a computer cheap.
Once the market is saturated, people will be more concerned with quality. What Jobs has failed to do however is make partnerships with other companies. The buying out of Power Computing was a big mistake. Apple is on its own where as the PC is managed by a few corporations. For Apple to cost of Buisness is much higher. They have to maintain software development, hardware development, they have to operate the factories and the advertising. PCs have a few companies working for them. Microsoft makes the software while Gateway IBM Dell e.t.c. compete by making hardware. All of these companies have advertise thus making the product more known for the common citizen. All this shit I have explained to you effects demand. Apple needs more demand or else their prices will not drop. One way they could start is making deals with gaming companies. Afterall people who do have computers prefer PCs because of games. Apple is more concerned with the graphics industry. Dont get me wrong its an important industry, but gaming is bigger. Steve Jobs needs to switch his priorities and perhaps make some deals with developers such as Motorola to spread the COB to other companies.

*Will spell check when I have time

I to do not want to go through all the pages, but as a *PC* user it might be helpful to voice my opinion.

The hardware differences are a lot between Mac's and i386's. The Mac platform cannot use the latest in video cards due to the OSX (Up to 10.2, 10.3 can and I hear it runs great from sources ;)) X11 compatibility issue. This is a really big deal, considering that video cards are the life-blood of games. Also, the processor speed and design of a G4 vs a P4 or AMD XP were not good, because the G4 was ageing and not being fed anymore power. The G5 fixes this problem, as being the second 64-bit desktop machine to be marketed (If you are thinking ?What?s SiG talking about?? check this out (http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2003/06_jun/features/cw_macg5_interview.htm)) and the G5 proves to be a very nice system. The only problem with it is that Apple is overcharging for components, but we all knew that would happen. The DDR400/PC3200 RAM that goes into those boxes is nice and all, but it should only cost about $100 for a 512MB stick. $150 if you have the options to set the latency speeds (Corsair CAS/CL2 RAM) but otherwise, $100 a stick.

The software differences are where most people draw the line. OS X is a decent OS, because it?s based off of *BSD, which is one of the best OSes known to man ;) The real problem with the Mac is that you are more or less locked into running a Mac OS, or Linux/*BSD on it, all of which are game-limited, or at least to the average n00b. Windows gives a user a lot more software options, and a lot more games, but at a speed cost because Windows is a bloated POS :) My choice OS is Linux, and it?s what all systems that I manage run, with the exception of my mom?s work laptop (She caught me while I was installing it.. I had just gotten it to the re-partition part too!) and my dad?s personal laptop because he doesn?t let me near it ;). Even my sisters iMac runs Linux (Debian 3r1 PPC) but that was her choice ? She liked the looks of my Linux so much she asked for it, something that was a joy to hear. Linux has a lot of game support ? I can play every single Windows-based game on my Linux box. How? WINE.

Now, if we are going to talk about hardware, my recommendations (And I do know my shit, I deal in this for clients and friends every day) would have to be a P4 3.0C with 800FSB, a ASUS or ABIT motherboard that supports it (ABIT is my choice right now, I just built a 2.4C system based on a ABIT motherboard and I liked it a lot). The only way to fly with a video card is a 128MB Radeon 9800 Pro, as the 256MB is overkill and overpriced. RAM, Corsair PC3200 or better, in dual channel operation. Currently, I would stay away from AMD as they are not as powerful as the P4?s and the price on them is higher for the same MHz.

If any of you would like any help at all choosing a system for yourself, contact me via AIM, Email, private message, etc and I?ll help you out. I?m not pushing Windblows here, but I am pushing i386 hardware as I think it is better for the price, all around.

Mauti, I have to warn you that Toms Hardware Guide (http://tomshardware.com/) is a known site for throwing reviews, and cannot be trusted at all for their content. Hell, their Germany offices are on the Intel campus!

Best of luck,
SiGmA_X

Bah, I thought we were rid of you. Quit blowing FUD around.

First, Macs do use the latest in video cards, as evidenced by the Radeon 9800 in the G5. Moreso, even if there were problems, it would have nothing to do with X11. OS X doesn't use X11 for its windowing system. Of course, I'm sure you already knew this because of your intimate knowledge of operating systems. Noob.

Second, Apple never claimed that the G5 was the first 64-bit desktop. Hell, I think the first 64-bit desktop was a DEC workstation back in the early 90's. Apple correctly claims that they are the first 64-bit personal computer. The Opteron is a server chip. Of course, you should have already known this being Mr. x86. Noob.

Third, Apple has always overcharged for RAM. Anybody with a brain and most without know to buy from a third party for normal prices. Of course, with your extensive exoerience in the computing world I'm sure you know this. Noob.

Fourth, OS X is recognized as the most powerful and versatile consumer OS around. You have many more software options than Windows as you can run all the major commercial applications AND pretty much any *nix app ever written. (If you want to mention Cygwin, it's only fair that I get to toss in VPC which means that OS X can run pretty much any app ever.) Sure, you might miss out on the occasional latest, greatest game, but most people who aren't teenage boys realize that a computer is more than just an overpriced game console. Of course, I'm sure that you are beyond the x86 teenage boy stereotype of "OMG IT DOESN'T HAVE COUNTERSTRIKE SO THE ENTIRE COMPUTER IS WORTHLESS!" Noob.

Fifth, WINE is a half-assed hack at best. 'Nuff said. Noob.

Sixth, don't try and pretend you are some computer genius because you run Linux. As the classic saying goes, "People run Linux because they hate Microsoft. People run *BSD because they love *nix." To boot, if you are going to bash Redmond do it properly. It's Winblows, not Windblows. Of course, being Mr. Linux I'm sure that you have a quotebook of Microsoft bashes. (Hell, Linux users copied M$ bashing from us anyways.) Noob.

Seven, you do not have clients. You are a loser, and you're biggest claim to fame is http://www.th3sp0t.com/. Of course, I'm sure you are well aware of your pathetic existence already. Noob.

Your to quick to harp about linux...

I have a pc sitting next to me running redhat9, as a proxy server/samba backup server... It works nice, but the problems happen when you want to plug anything into your computer... change a mouse, install another driver, & random ethernet problems are what plauge that computer. RPMs make things a breeze to install, just as long as you have all the proper libraries.
Recently i wanted to install bittorrent (written in python), in order to get the gui to work i had to update my version of python, install wxpython, and edit the mailcap as root.  As with so many of the other programs you'll want to run under linux usually require a ton of setup and prep. With osX its simple, or should i say more user based.
Linux works well if you want to spend a couple of hours setting everything up, then leaving the computer on to do its job for months (like a server of sorts), but day to day use is a pain in the ass when compared to osX.
I like a computer that i can turn on and use, osX does that. One of my only major gripes about windows XP is the fact that it tries to do so much for you, leaving me pissed off at the fucking paperclip in word, and all those wizards(plus the fact that networking sucks ballsack). OsX is more refined, and is easier to use for a poweruser, it just works.

Btw, your sister must be a dog if she uses debian...

Ace, I am aware that the G5's use the latest video cards, but they aren't even shipping yet and the 'best' G5 comes with a Radeon 9600 as standard, which is a half-assed card that, well, sucks. The GeForce4Ti4600-8x is a lot better then it, as my personal benchmarking and other peoples benching has shown. I'm sure that you have realized that 10.3 has complete X11 support, and 10.2.x has beta-X11 support. This enables users to use other GUI among other things. I see I had a wording error, it happens when I stream two thoughts into one :p Yeah, I know that X11 has nothing to do with video card support, the support comes from the Xserver, which does happen to be X11-based, at least in systems with X11 :p

Apple did claim that it was the first 64bit desktop, go watch their Keynotes or read that interview. Here's the quote for you: "On the hardware side of things, our introduction of the world's fastest personal computer -- the first 64-bit desktop machine" (From interview, link in last post). The Opteron is not strictly a server chip, it will be used for what ever a user wants, and since there are motherboards with AGP (8x, even) it will be used as a desktop, and has been marketed as both.

Of course I know they overcharge in RAM.. And hard drives, and videcards, etc.

Yes, it is the best consumer OS, as rated by Mac reviewers, amazing! Cygwin is not that great IMO, I am being forced to use it at work and it doesn't cut what a powerful install of Gentoo or Slackware could be doing for me. I don't play Counter-Strike, and I don't play games unless I am at a LAN party, because games are a waste of time for the most part. If I have friends over and they want to game, we might fire up some BF1942 or UT2003 or something, but CS is never one of those games. We don't even do them at our LAN's and our clan is BF1942 at major LANs not CS.

WINE might not be as good as something you have, but it works for me - I can play BF1942 in Linux with out any problems, and that is all I need it for anyways.

I am not trying to be a computer genesis because I run Linux. And I don't run Linux because I hate Windows. You run X because you hate Windows. I run Linux because I like being able to do what I want to do with the OS, and I haven't had enough time to learn how to use FreeBSD yet. That is my next goal. The sad thing there is that studies show that Linux is creeping into the *BSD environment, and is taking users to Linux over *BSD. And I don't bash Microsoft because there is no reason to at all. They do what they do just fine - Make money and shitty software.

Oh right, I don't have clients.. That's right, you know my life! lol. I have a few clients for hardware support and software support, and some because they are total n00bs. I make a few hundred a month off of these clients, so it is fine by me. Th3Sp0t was a page that I had for a few months while I was still on my Mac. I have moved on and we are doing great at our new site, because its a site that we started to have fun in the industry not to profit or anything else. You don't know me, so don't judge me as I do not judge you.

And damn man, stop using 'noob' you sound like a teenager who can't get enough Counter-Strike. Damn!

Jeb, perhaps your first problem is Redhat. Redhat is an OS that is not as user friendly or as well kept as some, IMO. The RPM's are nice, but `apt-get` is easier and better. I prefer source-installing everything myself, so neither apply. And it doesn't take me long to install something. A base install of Debian is 25min, and the install of all required server software is under an hour because of my Shell scripts that execute my commands for my custom compiles.

I like a computer that I can turn on and it works as well, and I get this out of Linux. My Linux box is always ready for me to turn on and have some fun with, and is always ready for new software or anything else. WinXP is .. Yeah. The Wizards are annoying as hell, and half the stuff can't even be manually configured! How does the networking suck so bad? I mean I know it's not all bubbly and whatnot, but its not that bad, as long as we aren't talking about setting it up, because the Wizard is just like every other WinXP one, and annoying as hell and a waste of time. But WinXP uses the standard SAMBA protocols just as well as X does or Linux does, and so it all works nicely. How is a simpler OS better for a 'poweruser'? Don't most 'powerusers' prefer to have options to what they do and have a complete array of software and hardware for their picking and choosing?

My sister is a 10yo who is a *jock* (How ever much you can be at that age, she does soccer, tennis, sailing, basketball, and plays interments..) and *might* use the computer 3 hour's a week if she isn't doing other things. The install was prob the longest time period she has spent on a computer in a LONG time. I did most of the install after she did the base-install, as SSH allows me to do 100% of it remotely after the base-install.

I don't feel like picking apart all the idiotic things you said again, so I'll just choose a couple choice quotes.


While I hate Windows, I run OS X because I love Macs. I've been using a Mac since before Windows 3.1 was released.


Heh. Haha. LMAO. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.


I've watched the Keynote. I've looked on the Apple website. They say "personal computer" in big fucking letters. Am I supposed to trust some no-name site about what Apple has claimed rather than www.apple.com? Also, check AMD's website. They sell the Opteron for two markets: server and workstation.

OsX just works, linux kinda works, and XP works.
I use a PC at work (XP pro) for 8 hours a day, it gets old, but it works most of the time. My macs work all the time thanks to osX, and it doesn't take any maintenance.
Heh, yeah which version of lindows are you using?

Frankly i don't have enough time to waste using linux for day to day things, but when i want to use jbuilder, or tinker with python i'll use my linuxbox for something other than server type things. My mac on the other hand, takes less time and it just works, plus if i needed to i can do anything and everything that linux can do.

oh, and why talk about how the mac videocards suck, and from the look of your sig, you don't have much of a videocard in the PC world.

And... with osX you get everything that linux has plus a much better user experience...

Same as why I run Linux, because I love it over Windows and X. I have no problem with X like I do with Windows, but I don't hate either and am proficient in all the above.

Wow, look at that! Apple calling it's new box a PC! Amazing how you people get so hung up on how BAD PC's are when your leaders are calling your boxen PC's :p AMD might market the Opteron as a Workstation/Server chip, but any reseller can sell it in another config, as does BOXX Technologies. Their 3d workstation (Which is what Apple also sells their?s as, a high end graphics workstation) uses the Opteron, and shipped before the Apple did by a while :)My WinXP doesn't work most of the time, and my Linux does 100% of the time. I have never had a problem that didn't give clear error messages and allow me to fix it vs just crashing, in Linux that is. I don't run lindows as it is udder crap, I run Debian 3r1 currently and am in the process of switching to Gentoo on my testing GUI machine in my room. Gentoo has great portage, which is a great feature which makes upgrades easy and management easy too.

Linux doesn't take time to use other then the install, which took me 40min last time, from time of wipe to time of having a GUI fully running. Why do you use JBuilder? It's a POS, IMO. Eclipse is a LOT better :)

Yes, the Mac vid's have always sucked. I was planning on upgrading to a Radeon 9800 Pro when I had a revelation - No games use any of the DX9a features, so I would be wasting my money. And since I hardly play games, I don't need it anyways. When the new id games come out, if they are good enough I'll upgrade my video card, but for now mine does everything and more then I need it to - It does 4x AA on all my app's, it's dual head, and I can run a TV on it too.

I have had a better user experience with Linux because I can control it myself vs it controlling me. "I use Linux because I want to run my computer vs my computer running me" I think is the quote I am looking for there :p

In the end, its all about choice, and that's what makes computers great, we all can choose what we prefer.

im getting the "i think im a badass because i run linux" vibes here. mb we should get back on topic, hmm?

Cookie hit the nail on the head. Rom got rightfully laughed off GR back in the day, but now he thinks he can seem all smart by bragging about running Linux. In the end, he is still the same old noob.


The colloquial term "PC" has meant an x86 box for a while now. Apple has referred to their computers as personal computers. It's a stupid semantic argument you make, but I should expect that from you.

The Powermac is not just a "high end graphics workstation." Sure, it can be used for that, but it also gets used in large quantities but a bunch of other types of users. Many developers use it, as do many "regular" users who want an Apple with more power and upgrade capacity. The day I see someone buy an Opteron as a family machine is the day I'll think about not calling it a server/workstation chip.

Ok, the thing is that everybody knows PC's are damn cheap, thats why every body has them, i mean u can buy a 2.2 ghz computer for 600 bucks. and its not a pentium 3, when we mac users can buy a stupid emac for around 1g and it still blows,i mean WTF!!! the G5 is good price but no pc noob is gonna pay for that, id still buy a mac over all ph33r me