*DAMN R6 Forum

   I would like to take this wonderful posting opportunity to bring to light a rumor that has been going around the main chats lately in concerns to the existence of a Season 5 in the Battle League and beyond.  I would also like to post a few views about any upcoming seasons that may or may not take place.  Since I play Ghost Recon only, you will notice that the majority of my points of view are concerning the Ghost Recon Ladder and not R6 or RS.

   First off, many of the members of GameRanger have been asking if there will be a Season 5 or not.  I hope that there would be of course since the *DAMN Battle League is pretty much the only Mac gaming league available for players of Ghost Recon.  I know that this past season has brought about many concerns: New rules, cheat tests, illegal modifications of game data, and so on.  I?m sure this has been quite stressful upon Mauti and the many moderators of the BL.  Many of these stressful situations that have arisen have surely disenchanted quite a few gamers from the enjoyment of the game itself.  Hopefully, these situations do not contribute to the lack of a Season 5, and that being said, the following paragraphs contain a few proposals for a more enjoyable, and hopefully, less stressful season to come.

   Point No. 1:     I have noticed that the majority of the decisions that concern all actively participating clans do not include the input of the majority of all actively participating clans.  I?m not insinuating that the *DAMN Battle League be run by the squabbling of ?noobs? and the incoherent rhetoric of ?seasoned veterans?, but what I do suggest is an addition to the existing forum.  This addition would serve as a place for members of the BL to openly give suggestions on how to make the BL more efficient, and more importantly, more enjoyable.  A leader or representative of each actively participating clan registered on the BL would vote upon these suggestions.  The manner in which they vote does not matter at this point, but what does matter is that the clans would have more to participate in than clan battles alone.  I believe this aspect would encourage more activity throughout the season, which I believe is what the majority of what gamers out there would like to see.  

        Point No. 2:     The current skill point system is not conducive to enjoyable, meaningful, or impartial play.  Perhaps it has sufficed for this past season and even the season before that, but I suggest a new system be instated that rewards clans for their active participation.  During Season 4 there were clans who gave life to the BL by clan battling more than other clans combined.  There were also clans who waited until the 11th hour (23.00+ GMT) in hopes of taking away hard-earned points away from the clans who have given life to the BL, which these last minute clans have avoided for an entire season.  Many of the clans at the top of the ladder towards the end of the season worked hard and put something into this league, while other clans refused to clan battle until the last two weeks.  What skill does it take to wait to clan battle until the last minute, and then camp your way to victory?  If anything this behavior discourages clans who actively participate and most likely pushes them towards the lack of participating in future seasons.  The current skill point system should be set aside while a new system is designed.  Just in my point of view, the new system should still have maximum limits as to how many clan battles you may participate in per clan, but I also suggest that minimums be placed on the number of clan battles per season.  This could be broken down to a certain number per week, or per season.  Either way, it promotes the clans who have clan battled all along, and it forces the last minute clans to either battle or be inactivated for that season.  Furthermore, the new system should be clear-cut and formula free.  The system should lie out clearly the number of points a clan would attain as opposed to the old system of winning some of your opponent?s points.  The current system allows clans who have never clan battled before to steal points away from a clan who has participated all season.  This is clearly a problem if the clan who wins has waited until the last possible moment in the season to clan battle.

   Point No. 3:     The current Ghost Recon rules have so many interpretations, or loopholes,  that it boggles the mind.  I think that much of the confusion is due to a lack of proper wording.  Again, this section of the BL should be completely clear-cut so that gamers as young as 10 and as old as 100 would understand without any confusion, interpretation, or discussion.  I have also noticed that many of the rules in the BL are retroactive rather than proactive.  If a committee such as the aforementioned committee in Point No. 1 were to revise the rules, it would have the unified knowledge and resources of leaders and representatives of every clan in the BL.  Why not leave the rules making process up to the people who play the game each and every day?  Final approval could be conditional from an okay from moderators and Mauti, but I would think it to be unnecessary since the conclusion of any and all voting processes would be what the majority of gamers felt, not just a handful of persons who might not even play Ghost Recon.  Again, I would think this would relieve some of the stress put on Mauti and the moderators so that they may concentrate on other issues.

   Point No. 4:     Cheating is now becoming more and more a part of Mac gaming, and Ghost Recon is not immune from it?s reaches.  This is very unfortunate, but it is a reality that we must acknowledge and proactively work to resolve.  It seems that server side mods offer the most efficient way to prevent gamers from using actual game cheats, but at this time, there are very few ways in which to prove a gamer is using modified game data.  We all know that we can edit our options.xml file.  We all know that we can remove different effects for maps.  We all know that certain gamers out there consistently try to see how far they can go before being accused, or caught.  I think the most direct avenue to take on this issue is to determine how to prevent cheating and not how to prove it.  As of now, there are only two ways to prove someone is cheating.  Unaltered screenshots is one method.  It is very unreliable and time consuming.  I have been in clan battles where both clans agreed to just avoid night maps so as not to perform a cheat test.  Another method would be to allow open access to user files via file sharing protocols located in System Preferences.  This would allow a moderator access to a gamer?s files so that the moderator could check for recently modified files and/or missing files.  This would of course be an unmentionable method of routing out cheaters.  I, for one, would not appreciate being accused of cheating, and I would further be disturbed by allowing access to my personal computer files to prove my innocence, which contain much more than just Ghost Recon.  This of course could be discussed in the committee mentioned in Point No. 1.  

   In closing, I would like to thank Mauti for this Battle League, which he has put far more many hours into than any other person associated with the BL.  I think that the BL has grown to the point where responsibilities need to be handed out to responsible clan leaders and representatives.  It?s not that I do not think Mauti can control his own BL, but I do believe it?s to the point where it has become more of a burden than a hobby.  I also take this time to apologize to all the folks out there who have endured this massively long, and at times, boring post.  I have tried to be as professional as I can be, but I?m sure I have upset at least a few people with this post.  As for the readers who wish to complain about this post, please do so in a professional manner.  I have given a fair amount of time to think about what I am writing and I would hope that any response would be given the same reverence so that it may be taken seriously.  And finally, I post this because these are my views.  They are not necessarily the views of my clanmates, nor of other members of the BL.  This is merely my opinion.  The reader should not disagree, but should agree to disagree so as to keep this thread as civil as possible.  Good luck to all groups in the Ghost Recon finals.  The clock is counting down, and God knows I have wasted half of finals just writing this.  Have a good night, and I look forward to a successful and well-participated Season 5!

---|n|`Noto    (a.k.a. C.J. Keenan)

I start by saying what a great job Mauti and his crew do..

For NoTo .....  I agree to agree

i worry about the on going flame wars between clans affecting the effectiveness of the appointed leaders of the respective clans to make progress in the direction of a better system, maybe i underestimate the maturity of the respective leaders...i could be proven wrong

i think it is a great idea to have a GHR counsel ... at least give it a shot

Well the thing with the councel is that some people could just make clans so that they could take part in it and swade a vote.  Also if a vote was very close and a new rule was only passed by a couple of votes there would be many unhappy people, what if someone from BTs and One vote no but the leader from a smaller clan like SW turns the vote to yes.  That would make a lot more people unhappy than happy, considering the sizes of the clans.  This couldn't be like the Senate, because it wouldn't be fair, it would need to be like a each clan gets a larger vote by number of members which is just way too complicated.  Ideas are always open and considered.

About there being no Season 5 I don't understand where you guys are getting this from.  There is going to be a couple weeks break after season 4 so scripts and some new things can be worked on to make the bl better.  Mauti already said this.

About the cheating and stuff, yes it does make the jobs of mods and Mauti very stressful and a lot of work with the large percentage of updates, especially in the last 2 seasons where the games have been doubled having 2 popular games out, but it's our jobs.  If we need help we hire another moderator and weed out some inactives until they are able to help again.

     The idea of the council (note that that is the correct spelling : P ) is a good one. Infection's concerns can be addressed by putting a minimum age for voting clans, such that a clan must have been in existence and active for at least X amount of time before they are eligible to participate in the council.

     An alternate solution, or one which could be used in conjunction with the age limit, is to make inclusion of new clans a matter for the council to vote on, perhaps with a simple majority needed for inclusion. Naturally, interclan politics could easily create problems with such a system, but it may serve to keep known troublemaking clans out of the council. It's something to consider, anyway.

I think Noto did a great job of expressing the concerns of himself and other Ghost Recon players in the community in a respectfull way, I commend him for that.

1. I think it would be good if the rules were revised by players of the games they concern and then approved by Mauti and the Admins.

2. I think the council would if anything slow everything down. I am not against the idea I would be for it if a good system was presented but think of how long it would take to pass one rule. We would have to wait for each clan's response and views. It would be kind of like how long it took them to put together the Articles of Confederation(only example I could think of) This might hinder the battle league and cause more confusion. I think it would be good for respected leaders to express their opinions but I am not sure this council is the way to do it. Also who decides who is on the council? I guess the time the clan has been around would be a good way to do it.

3. As for the cheating we can only hope that the cheat tests go smoothly unless some of the more experienced modders or people familiar with coding could work together on some kind of anti-cheat mod or solution to cheating.

Main concern for most people I have heard from.
4. As for the point system. Maybe the active clans could get bonus points. Like lets say |n| has been actively cbing for 4 months. Every week or month they are awarded 20 points for being active while inactive clans receive no points making them far behind the active clans. So you are rewarding for not only winning cbs but for being active.

I think #4 could be a possible solution to this loophole.

Also maybe it is time to assimilate some features from some other leagues. Such as auto-updating in some PC leagues and in the Bts league. The winner reports the battle and the loser has to confirm it and it automatically updates it. I also like the idea of individual stats so you can see who the top players are. Also in PC world when you sign up for the BL with your personal stats it logs your ip so you can't have multiple accounts. Just some ideas.

Thanks,

Hazard

The UN of ghost recon on mac...
I agree with pretty much everything that noto said there. I think the majority of the problems have been caused because there isn't such a structured community in GHR than in RS (or at least the size is much greater). In the 2 years i've been involved here, its seen its ups and downs, but i think with a greater foundation of dependible clans who play GHR things will get better.

We need to get evill to put in the anticheat measures, because it would break the TOS to make something to piggybacks on the plugin.

OKay so the council doesn't look like its strong enough to make through the beatings it would take to get there.

I think that people actively playing the game should have an active role in Making the rules and Constructing the infrastructure that is the Battle League,   BUT
You don't always have to tear down a building to make it better, if you can just influence those who are in charge of changing things you can also reach your goal.

In other words we have been playing in a Battle league thus far and it may not be perfect, but it is working........So we have to give the current administration loads of credit (Thank You to those who make up DAMN)

However nothing is stopping the top clans leaders from getting together during this break between Season4 and 5, and putting together a well organized concise presentation to let Mauti and his crew go over during the updating break.


Now the hard part seems it might be that these clan leaders are going to be voluntarily working together and respecting one another and would not have the commitment to an organization(the council). So it would seem easier for them not to be respectful and considerate of others ideas. But if we could all be adults and keep our eyes on the common goal i think that this could be a very positve step forward in the Battle League,

I'm kinda a noob at least in comparison to some, but i'd love to be a part of the revolution..........(remeber a revolution isn't a revolution without blood shed)

     Put a time limit on voting in council matters, and have each clan spokesman name an alternate or two. If a clan has not weighed in on a matter within 48 hours (for example) of it being put before the council, they're SOL. Alternates would allow a clan to have its say even if its spokesman is unavailable (out of town, fleeing to Mexico, at the Betty Ford Clinic, whatever).

Cor what a lot of writing! Loads allready so i wont say to much ;) :

I think flies is right about the changes, I don't consider 4 or five seasons to be enough time for everything to be sorted out, there are allways going to be problems that crop up and need addressing. For what i have seen of DAMN huge fundamental changes have happend like flies said, in th last 6 months or so.

And so to the issue of a 'council'? I think it could be a highly effective idea, but at the same time if done wrong could be a disaster. Firtly like guys have said there would need to be a pretty lengthy time period for a clan to be active before being allowed to participate in the council. Secondly the Clan would need to be an active participant in the BL (when i say active I don't mean cbing in the last week to try stealing well earned points of other hard cbing clans). Thirdly the member from each clan should be a well regarded member, who perhaps is nominated by clan and approved by mauti?. Fourthly there is a limit to the council - and it is more of an advisory role towards mauti when he asks for it ... rather than a gungho rule factory.

Having a unbiased central leader to the BL seems to work increadably well - to have an unbiased view on problems and replays is invaluable... perhaps though as mauti dosn't play GhR to my knowldge that often - this would be an opportunity for the 'council' to fill its shoes...  Problem is now i feel slightly that we do have a sort of councill.. the many members of different clans who are BL Moderators... If there is not equal representation though i think people could feel uncomfortable.

One last thing i feel would be of great benifit (think it has been mentioned as well) is a simplification of the rules... I know there is a hell of a lot of them but if it could somehow be simplifed and clarified so that even the most uneducated of us can understand ;) .....

Just my thoughts while i try to put of doing the work i should be doing ;0)

     The Constitution of the *DAMN Battle League Interclan Council, First Draft

     Article I: Powers Granted to the Council
          A. The Council shall have the power to enact new rules for and modify the existing rules of the *DAMN Battle League.
                1. Proposals for new or modified rules may be put before the Council by any member clan in good standing, with a minimum duration of two weeks between proposals by a clan and a minimum duration of one month between functionally equivalent proposals.
               2. Proposals must be seconded by an unaffiliated clan in order to be considered by the Council. An unseconded proposal remains active before the Council for two weeks, after which it may no longer be seconded.
               3. To be ratified into the Battle League rules, a proposal under consideration by the Council must receive at least a two-thirds majority vote by Council members in good standing, upon which it is added to the rules and put into effect immediately.
               4. Proposals which affect only one game's ladder may not be voted upon by clans which do not participate in that ladder.
               5. Votes must take place within a reasonable span of time from the seconding of the proposal. If any clan has not cast their vote within 72 hours of the seconding, that clan is not considered part of the Council for purposes of calculating the majority.
               6. The Owner of the *DAMN Battle League reserves the power to veto, in whole or in part, any ratified proposal.
               7. A ratified proposal which has been vetoed may still be enacted if it receives a 90% vote of Council members in good standing within 72 hours of the veto. The majority is calculated using the full roster of the Council.

          B. The Council shall have the power to set punishments for violations of League rules, and shall cause those punishments to be carried out.
               1. No proposal for punishment of a clan may be set before the Council until a reasonable length of time has elapsed since the transgression against the rules of the *DAMN Battle League. This is to allow the Moderators and the Owner of the Battle League time to enact suitable punishment.
               2. A proposal for punishment may not be set forth by any clan involved in the event meriting punishment.
               3. The Council is forbidden from imposing excessive punishment upon its member clans. Nor may excessive punishment be imposed upon non-member clans.
               4. Ratification of a proposal for punishment for a transgression which has not yet been punished by the Moderators or the Owner: the proposal must be seconded by an unaffiliated clan--a clan which is neither involved in the event, nor is affiliated with the proposing clan; the proposal must receive a two-thirds majority vote of Council members in good standing, excepting any clans involved in the transgression, which are not allowed to vote on this issue.
               5. Ratification of a proposal for punishment for a transgression for which a punishment has already been decided upon by the Moderators or the Owner: the proposal must be seconded by an unaffiliated clan, and must receive a 90% majority vote of Council members in good standing, excepting any clans involved in the transgression, which are not allowed to vote on this issue.
               6. The Owner reserves the power to veto, in whole or in part, any ratified proposal for punishment, whether the transgression has been punished by the Moderators or Owner, or has not been punished. There shall be no appeal of such a veto.


     Article II: Membership in the Council
          A. Membership in the *DAMN Battle League Council shall be granted to any clan which meets the stated requirements.
               1. Any clan which has been in existence in its current incarnation for at least one month and which has been active on at least one *DAMN Battle League ladder for one month during the current season or which was active for at least 75% of the previous season is eligible to petition to join the Council.
               2. The petition shall be duly considered by all Council members in good standing, and those members shall cast their votes regarding it within 72 hours of its submission to the Council.
               3. A petition which receives a simple majority shall be passed, and the petitioning clan shall become a member of the Council.

          B. Powers and Duties of Council Members
               1. All Council members must be aware of the duties they are responsible for and the rules they must adhere to as part of the Council, as set forth in this constitution. Council members will adhere to the decisions of this Council.
               2. All member clans shall appoint a councilman from among their members. This councilman shall represent the clan before this Council. A clan's councilman shall serve for no less than one month, except in cases of extenuating circumstances. The councilman has the power to cast his clan's vote, and to second proposals in the name of his clan.
               3. Each councilman shall select at least one and not more than two seconds from his clan's members. These seconds shall serve as councilman for their clan in the event that the councilman is unavailable when he is needed. While serving in this role and until such time as the councilman returns to duty, a second has full status as a councilman, with all the powers and duties thereof. Each second's term shall be no less than one month, except in cases of extenuating circumstances. A second's term shall coincide with the term of his councilman.
               4. Each councilman is responsible for being aware of and participating in the business of the Council.
               5. Any member clan whose councilman and seconds are not participating in the business of the Council shall be rebuked and its Council membership shall be stripped.


     Article III: Amendments to this Constitution
          A. Any Council member in good standing may propose an amendment to this constitution.
               1. Any such proposal must be seconded by an unaffiliated clan.
               2. To be ratified, a seconded amendment must receive a two-thirds majority in a vote by all Council members in good standing, upon which it will be added to this Constitution and put into effect immediately. All member clans must vote within 72 hours of the seconding of the proposal.
               3. The Owner of the *DAMN Battle League reserves the power to veto, in whole or in part, any ratified amendment.
               4. A vetoed amendment may still be enacted if it receives a 90% majority vote of all Council members in good standing within 72 hours of the veto.

Blimey mr. Lothario.. You got a bit of spare time on your hands? ;)

Inpressive stuff... Looks like you have coverd it all! Would only suggest that a council mans/woman has just the one second, rather than two.

Im  right in thinking that this is kept completely seperate from BL Moderators? how would these two groups co-exist?

Agreed with the council thing...

I like the idea of it...

But as for the point system?

What's wrong with a ranking system?

You move up ONLY if you beat a higher ranked team/person. You DONT move up if you beat up on the noobs an avoid whats going on here on this ghr ladder...

Basically noob beatings... WILL NOT get you to 1st place...

You don't get penalized for loosing.. but you do loose a spot if someone beats a higher ranked clan an bumps you down a spot or 2....

Your allowed to cb as many times as you want... None of this 4 per clan rule...
Which makes sense with the points...

Meaning that it will encourage more clans to go out and do their best... and after they loose they might even want to rematch or something...

All this while keeping track of each players stats...

Very nice work Loth!

Seems like a pretty solid idea to me, something that's been needed for a long time too.

Anybody else see any problems with it?

OK, I was asked about this a few times now, so I may as well get around to posting it.  BTW Eight, the problems with a system just based on Rank are covered here a bit.

Here are the synopsis of the MP symposium on Battle League Rules.

First, why did we need to look at this?

Changes in the Battle League rules were made to give new clans a chance to compete.  So that older clans wouldn?t just be ahead because they had been CB?ing longer.  A good idea, but like all things, it compensated a little too much.

Instead of making one change, many were made.  The two most noticeable being the league was broken into seasons and a skill point system was made.  It didn?t take long to figure out how the point system could be manipulated, by design or not.  

So, to make a long story short, we found the problem in the skill points to be what they are based off of.  If you hadn?t CB?d, you could still get the maximum skill points by CB?ing a low ranked clan, just because they had x-amount more points then you did.

We were looking for a solution more like boxing.  Where you gain rankings by who you beat (sounds the same so far).  But, just doing it by rankings didn?t work either.  There were too many loopholes (how do you ensure that the #1 faces the top clans?  how do you keep a clan from being frozen out?).  So, we either make a huge, cumbersome set of rules, to close each loophole (which is what has been happening to the DAMN BL) or, we find another solution.  

So here?s what we came up with.  We call it ?Purse Points? because of its boxing purse roots.

Each clan in the League has a ranking.  Easy enough (beginning all are ranked tied for #1).  You are ranked by the points you?ve made, but that?s as far as they are used.  No tricky formulas.  It?s real simple.  For every rank, there are a number of purse points.  Ascending by 10 points from lowest ranked to highest.  So, if there are 20 clans in the League, the #1 ranked clan has a purse of 210, the lowest has 10.

Simple so far.  But how does the scoring work.  Simple.  There are two choices (we never decided which would be best, and I leave the question to you).  

Option #1 - The winning clan gets the purse points of the losing clan.  So, if you beat #1 in that 20 clan league, you get 210 points for the win.  If you beat #15, you get 60 points for the win.  You obviously get more points for beating higher ranked clans.  No points are lost ever.

Option #2 - The winning clan gets the combined purse points of all clans involved.

Both these options even work if it?s a multi clan CB.  

I?m more of a fan of option #1.

Another point is, at the start of a new season, everyone starts with no points, but their ranking from last season (new clans start in lowest ranking).

There you have it.  We talked about instead of the points ascending by 10, doubling every place, which is one more option.  

But, here is what this system does.  A clan can come in late, and still take first, if it is beating up on the top rank clans.  It won?t climb by beating lower ranked ones.  You can still take first, even if that clan is hiding from you.  CB?ing often helps, CB?ing high ranked clans helps even more.  

It doesn?t have to handicap clans with max scores in a CB, since it isn?t using their scores, just the purses.  In other words, just beating #1 once at the end of the season isn?t going to do it.  If they have been CB?ing often, you have to win a few CB?s against the top ranks to have a shot.  

So, all we did was take a look at the problems the new rules were set out to solve, and look for another, fair but simple way to solve them.

OK, time for you guys to post comments.

I'd ask anyone to NOT use or recreate the MP Battle Leauge symposium without permission or either bucc or i.

We have been talking with mauti to hopefully breath some life into the scoring system, and lessen the bitching about tactical use. The scoring system has been posted to hopefully inspire some comments, and ideas to talk mauti into switching into a rank style system like i've talked about previously. I and many of the other people who have seen this think its a pretty damn good system, and it has hopefully adressed some of the existing issues.

I'm sure its benifitary to the growing community of ghost recon players for everyone to post their thoughts, questions and ideas on this.
-jeb

Thanks for your comments. First about the council - I think it is a nice idea however this forum always welcomes ideas and suggestions. Most rule updates as well as other things were done because of suggestions here made, as Flies mentioned it.

About season 5: it will have a complete new point system, one idea is the Combat Point System(project name). It will solve almost all issues with the current system and merge all advantages of a purse point/rank based/ systems. I'll write an article later about it because it still needs the community for fine tuning. Further the rules will be completly rewritten.

Some preinfo about the Combat Point System: the idea behind it is to make sure that you always have fun cbing and don't have to worry to lose many points especially if you are a top clan and are afraid to play #1 - 5. It is designed to prevent late starting and dodging cbs(probably it will have an autoscripted challenge system). Alright how to achieve that!?(I only explain the first two points of it)

The magic word is Experience points: It's like a role playing game: your experience increases with every battle, no matter if you win or lose. The first time you meet an opponent you get 15 ex-points, second time 10ex-points, third time 5 ex-points. These points will be merged with the skillpoints(algorithm not defined yet). So a late starter can gather much skillpoints by waiting but he doesn't have any experience points which will make him stay behind until he has battled many different clans(yes it promotes that you battle many clans and start early). Skillpoints are determined as in season 3, meaning there will be a multiplicator back for players so you get more for playing higher cbs not as in season 4 only 2 points more. May I even would merge the player points with the experience points so even weaker clans have a reason to do larger cbs.


So far a quick shot into season 5. More info later!

In response to Bucc and the purse points:

One problem I see with it is that you can get away with masses of cbs simply because you don't lose points. Battling tons of midranged clans will get you away. You aren't forced to play top clans.  With the current skillpoints you don't get much points if you beat lower ranked clans but you always get a good amount of purse points.

I have to go now but I'll post later all ideas and suggestions by Jeb and how I would realise them in season 5.

Bye,

Mauti

Well, mid ranked clans give you mid ranked points.  And if other top ranked clans are CB'ing top ranked clans, they'll pass you.  Also, this is why we were thinking of doubling the points each rank, not just a linear progression, but a geometric one.  This would really make the top ranks more attractive to CB.

But, just like with any system, CB that much more then the rest, and you are going to build up a lead.  I don't think that's a bad thing.  

Yep but not if you have a 50% win percentage. It would be like the preseason where AK won with 28loses. Well if you can't lose points you are encouraged to battle everytime but the bad side effect is that your rank is only determined by the masses of cbs.

Btw I'm not sure if I understood your system right: ranks are determined by earned(merged) purse points but if you battle a clan you don't get their earned points you only get their purse points for the rank!?

1st 320pts (purse points for #1 210)

If you beat the #1 you get +210!?

All in all I think you should get penalty points for losing because then the system would be screwed as we made the experience in the preseason.

Bye,

Mauti

that's the point.  if you're an active clan, you probably got time to CB more and show you're down for yours.  if you lose, you can make it up by winning.  if your clan is good, you can make up for your losses.  but with the current system, you are limited to how much you can CB.  CB'ing is about doing it as much as possible.  What about a clan that really wants to take out a top clan?  They only get 4 chances, and then they gotta wait until next season?  That's stupid.  Let the clan fight that clan as much as they want, and that will give that clan a chance to accomplish their goal.  Limiting the clan, will discourage that clan from sticking around.  The preseason was the only real season compared to how its been with the new "point system".  Sure AK won with this, and that's probably the biggest reason some of you disliked it!  Had it been another clan, you would not had a problem with it.  But being that the hatrid around here is more childish than the people that run it, it doesn't make you wonder why.  

A clan that's active, is a clan to beat.  And how do you beat that clan?  By becoming active and trying to catch up.   AK did a good job of this, and was able to anhialate the competition.  Poor KoS had a fit because they were so inactive and couldn't keep up.  WHo's bad is that?  The inactive clan's.  Enough said.

Mauti, this new points system and re-written rules sounds extreamly promasing... looking forward to it  ;D

A counsil would be good.. but not for direct rule making. We clound have the counsil in a chat room once a week and discuss things that an appointed counsil member could bring up to Mauti to take into consideration. just an idea. ???

Mb just that clans vote about the mod's.
So that each clan would have a vote if wanting a new mod, and could call "vote of trust" if they wanted someone removed
(and here also the been_long_enough_in_the_BL thing applying)

Counsil is alittle too much mb

Dont try to fix something thats not broken  ;)

As for the point system, as long as it makes the BL more fun to play in...im all for it
 :)

     For those who wondered, that constitution took me about an hour yesterday morning. It's not complete; there are sections and points missing from it. Basically, I was tired and in a hurry to sleep, so I forgot to add some things. : )

     My idea of the role of the Council is as a device to give the clans some direct say in the League, without taking over the jobs of Mauti & the mods. You'll note that getting anything passed the way the Constitution is written will be pretty difficult (2/3 majority). In other words, stuff like "I propose a rule stating that such-and-such a clan is full of doodieheads!" won't go anywhere, but if something really needs to be done, it can be.

     On a different point, Bucc, Jeb, Cossack, Alaric and I were discussing various aspects of the proposed Council system and other issues related to the BL, and one thing that we came up with (I can't recall whose idea it actually was) was a vote for BL moderators. Such a vote would be held before each new season, and each clan would put forth a candidate or two (or so) from their ranks. Ghost Recon clans would provide candidates for Ghost Recon Ladder mods, and RS clans would provide candidates for RS Ladder mods. All clans on the respective ladders would get one vote each. The candidates who got the most votes would become mods for that season.

     Such a system would have certain advantages: it would ensure that the League's blood was kept fresh, it would lessen accusations of biased mods, by increasing the feel of self-governance it would lessen the "us against them" mentality which sometimes crops up when dealing with the mods, and most importantly, the shorter duration of service would save the mods' sanity.

     Joka, reading your post cracked me up: great minds think alike, eh? : D

RE: Bucc's idea

How about the problem we're experiencing now?

What if someone doesn't want to play c| or BTs.... Like they did near the end of the season... That mean that if you battle 3rd an 4th place and gain your points your then ranked #1 without having to beat out #1.

Then c| and BTs are shit out of luck then?

Is there a maximum to how many times clans can play?

Back to c| an BTs.... the c| boys beat us 3 times... Does this mean since we were in first those times they beat us...that each time they beat us its +210 points?

What if 1st place is at 800 points.. and 2nd is down about 300 points? No way to ever catch up to 1st... is there? Especially if some clans just won't cb other clans?

I still don't see the problem with the ranking system... Bucc....

Your in 20th place... you beat the 10th place team/person you move up halfway to 15th... the person in 10 place that you beat doesnt get penalized for loosing...

Now the 10th place person might be pissed that he just lost to the now 15th place person and has a greater chance of asking for a rematch right away. Since there is nothing to loose. Untill he catches up of course...

Which makes the whole ladder unpredictable... Since yesterday your team was in 16th place... but now today it's in 17th place because of the guy that moved up ahead of u.

We also have a timer we can set/change so clans don't sit there and hog the rankings (automatic drop in ranks for being idle to long) Also an automated challange system so there is no way to dodge cbs...

So again how is this bad Bucc? I just didn't see how your post explained it.

No problem, I'll try to explain it a little more clear.

If any clan beat the first place clan (in that 20 clan league) they would get 210 points.  If any clan, including the first place clan, beat the 15th place clan (in that same league), they would get 60 points (that clan's purse points).  Ranks are decided by total points.

So if the fist place team keeps CB'in mid ranked teams, they are only getting about half the points of say the third ranked team beating the second ranked team.

The other option that was discussed was for the clans to get the combined total of both purses, but I'm not a fan of that system (but figured since we talked about it, I should post it).

First, it's been made pretty clear that this wasn't just my idea.  I do NOT want to take credit for it alone.  Quite a few of us worked on it together.

Second, you are right, you don't have to beat #1 to be #1.  That's on purpose.  What if the #1 clan keeps ducking the #2 clan?  #2 never gets his shot.  What if #1 keeps ducking #2 - #5?  It's not like Jeb, Brain and I weren't in those discussions about a rank system like boxing with you back before the BTs league Eight.  We pointed out this problem back then.  The difference is, back then we were talking about how do you make rules ensuring that all clans get their shot.  

The #1 clan needs to keep CB'ing to be on top, as it should be.

Third, the situation faced at the end of the season I remember was a member of BTs calling out MP in the forum, then refusing to CB to not lose points.  


When we talked about it, we were leaving the current CB limits in place I believe.  But this is an open discussion about it.

And yes, if it had been a 20 clan league, under option one, c| would have earned 630 points for those three wins.  But I doubt you would have stayed in first through all those wins with the purse point system, so it would be a different story.


Sure there is.  If 2nd beats 3rd a few times, he just passed 1st, didn't he?  Add a few times beating 4th and 5th.  

Since the purse points system rewards you more for beating high ranked teams, you have a shot at catching up if one high ranked team wont CB you.  Look at the other option, in a ranked system, if they don't CB you, you never have any little chance.  Or you have to keep building in rules to make sure it does.  

We are trying to avoid a huge rule list.  Huge rule lists just make for Battle League Lawyers, looking for any loophole or advantage in the rules, instead of just focusing on the game.


Yeah, we talked about that too, but the more rules you make, the easier it is to hide in them.  

I'll give you a fine example.  You have a timer, it was yesterday at midnight.  The bullshit happened (like it did) between you and MOD.  Do you fall in ranking?  If so, why?  Can a team just submarine you like that and make you drop?  If not, where is that covered in the rules?  

Another point about a pure ranking system.  It makes it too hard to knock off #1.  If a clan only moves up half the distance between them, nobody can ever beat #1.  OK, I'm sure you've covered that.  But let's say that the #1 clan has lost 6 times in a row to low ranked clans, 20 ranks below them or so.  They deserve to be in first?

The more rules you add to cover these situations, the more opportunity for abuse of them.  It's always better to keep it simple.  

Other side notes, getting jumped by clans is a fact in any ladder, so bringing that up doesn't matter.  Unpredictable isn't something that a ranking system brings alone.  And a challange system is outside of scoring, and can be incorporated into any league or ladder.  What we are talking about here is scoring.

I know you want to pull people into your Battle League, Eight, but you really should have stuck around for those discussions back then, instead of running out half way and making the ladder.  We talked about the problems with just a pure ranking system.  Jeb, who was the biggest proponent of it was even convinced that it was too hard and too complicated to make work like he'd envisioned it.

Mauti, I also didn't reply to one of your points that I should have.  Even though I don't see the need for penalty points, I'm not speaking for everyone here.  This was meant to be an open discussion.  There is nothing wrong with suggesting a penalty to avoid the situation you brought up and I didn't mean to slap it down without comment.  

I don't think it's necessary, but if I did, I'd probably do something like take the difference in the purse points as a penalty.  This to discourage CB'ing the lower clans compared to the upper clans.  Puts more at risk for loosing to lower ranked clans.   So, in our imaginary 20 clan league, if first lost to second, second would get 210 points, while first would lose 10 points (210 - 200) for a swing of 220.  If 1st lost to 15th, 15 would still get 210, but 1st would also lose 150 points (210 - 60).

Again, CAUTION, EVEN LENGTHIER THAN THE LAST POST!  READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!

   I know many of you out there have toyed with the idea of a Battle League Council in your heads, but I think my original idea should be clarified to show my intent.  I suggested a council of sorts to help more clans to take an active role in the Battle League that they participate in.  Below I will outline what I think the ?council? should entail.  It is not complicated, nor is it convoluted, and it should also be noted that this is intended for the Ghost Recon Ladder.  To have a council made up of mostly Ghost Recon clans, and then in turn make decisions affecting other ladders and the clans in the ladders in which they participate would not make sense at all.  Read on, and you will understand, but make sure that if you do not understand something, read it again.  I am sure I will make my intent more clear this time around.  

*DAMN Battle League ? Ghost Recon Council v1.0

   First off I would like to state that I believe this will work due to the large number of clans who participate in the Ghost Recon Ladder.  I know that with RS and R6, there are fewer clans and this plan would most likely not benefit their ladders? in any way whatsoever.  

Purpose:   The role of the Council would be to give suggestions on how to make the Ghost Recon gaming experience a more enjoyable atmosphere, and also to vote upon those suggestions, making new rules, updating older rules, and/or taking out a rule altogether.  Since the players of Ghost Recon know what they want, why not let them decide upon the parameters that they wish to play with?

?  Who can participate in the council?  Only one representative from each clan may be on the council itself.  This person may be the clan leader, or a representative from their clan who has been chosen by clan members to represent their clan in the council.  Only one person from each clan may be on the council and they must be registered with the Battle League.  These members should also be respected not only in their own clan, but in the Ghost Recon community as well.  If not, these members should realize that they are representing their clan in the best way that they can.

?  Can a clan change who represents them?  Yes, but there are limits.  Since the seasons are lengthy, it would be improper to force a clan to have the same person represent them.  The reason against forcing a clan to do so is easily summed up in one sentence.  ?What if the council member of a clan quits the clan??  If this happens, which it does, there must be a way to substitute a new council member.  If a council member chooses to leave the council, a substitute for that clan must be registered within one week of the time at which the former council member quit (168 Hours GMT).  If this is not decided upon during that week?s time, that clan?s chair will be voided for the rest of the season.  Only extreme circumstances would allow for more time than the period of one week (i.e.: council member quits their clan, and then the substitute quits their clan, not allowing enough time for a new substitute to register.

?  What are the powers of the council members?  A council member can:  Vote yes, vote no, abstain from a vote, submit a ?new rule? proposal, submit a ?change of existing rule? proposal, and submit a ?deletion of current rule? proposal.  This is the only power the council members are afforded.

?  What powers are the council members not afforded? Mauti still decides if a person or an entire clan is disbanded.  Mauti and the moderators would still decide upon cheat accusations.  Mauti and the moderators would still regulate the forums as they see fit.  Council members cannot suggest banning a person or clan from the BL.  

?  Is there a moderator for the council?  Yes.  The number of moderators needed would be based on the need for them.  The moderators? duties would include:  Enforcing the rules that regulate the council.  Deleting improper submissions of proposals.  Deleting proposals not submitted within the allotted time for submitting proposals.  Keeping track of all statistics for the voting process.  
?  Who gets to vote?  And how much is their vote worth?  Each clan gets one vote.  Every clan has a different number of members, but this should not change the weight of a clan?s vote.  Some of the best clans out there have a ton of members, and some of the worst have very few.  If you look up the memberships of every clan, you will see that this works both ways as well.  Some of the best clans do not have many members, and some of the worst have a ton of members.  This basically averages out.  This is more closely aligned with the United States Senate than the House of Representatives.  I believe the Senate helps to balance what power a smaller clan has.  If votes were based upon the number of members in the clan, any clan could recruit as many members as they could, just for the purpose of obtaining a higher vote value in the council.  This is why I believe a one-clan, one-vote policy would work more efficiently.  A council member can vote yes, no, or abstain, BUT you may only abstain 5 times during the season.  More than 5 abstained votes will void that council member?s clan from participating in the council for the rest of the season.  THIS IS FOR EACH PROPOSAL, NOT FOR EACH WEEK.  Therefore, if a council member misses voting during a particular week, and there were 5 or more proposals, their chair would be voided.  Since there are 3 days in which to vote, I cannot see how difficult it is to vote during the allotted time.

?  When can proposals be submitted?  All proposals must be submitted on Sunday between 00.00 GMT and 23.59 GMT.  Attempts to submit proposals at any other time will either be deleted or denied at the time of submission.  

?  When can submitted proposals be voted on?  The voting process takes place during all hours of Monday, Tuesday, & Wednesday during GMT time.  This leaves Thursday, Friday, and Saturday for clan leaders to address their clans as to the updated rules, if any.

?  How does a proposal pass?  Simple.  In order for a proposal to pass, the proposal must have at least two-thirds of the council?s vote, or 0.667%.  This does not mean that it will pass with two-thirds of yes or no votes.  Council members who abstain from a vote are more or less voting no if they do not vote.

?  When does a passed proposal take effect?  Any proposals that have been passed take effect on the first Sunday after the completion of the voting process.  As stated above, clan leaders have ample time to contact their members and make them aware of the new rules; new rules that would be posted on the forum of course.

?  How do you submit a proposal?  The proposals are simple.  If a council member decides to submit a proposal, it must be in a completed form intended for insertion into the current rules.  Example:  If I wanted to propose giving clans the choice to use either 5 minute or 10 minute clan battles during the season, I would have to state the rule clearly, state the reason or why the rule is needed, and state the overwhelming benefits, which would outweigh the negative aspects if any.  I would write my proposal in this fashion:

Clans may choose between a 5 minute or 10 minute clan battle.  The clans could decide before the clan battle takes place, very similar to how a best of 7 or best of 10 games is decided.  The clans can either agree or not, but once a decision has been made, the entire clan battle would be in 5 or 10-minute increments.   The reason why this is needed is to reduce the time in a clan battle.  At current, a best of 10 clan battle takes at least an hour.  This rule would cut that time in half.  Some of the benefits include:  Not as much time to camp.  If a clan does camp, the opposing clan only has to wait 5 minutes.  Game play would theoretically move 50% faster since the games are 50% shorter.  3-hour clan battles would be more of a choice than a requirement.  

?  How many times can a council member submit a proposal?  In order to keep the number of proposals within adequate parameters, each council member is allowed to submit 4 proposals per season.  This might seem low, but if there are 31 clans, like there were last season, that means 93 proposals could be submitted during the season.  If a proposal is submitted, that counts towards the 3 submissions allowed per season, meaning any improper submissions that are deleted by the moderator will count against that council member?s 3 submission limit.  This also prevents council members from submitting frivolous proposals, because they would lose their chance to submit proposals that they really wanted.  

?  What happens if a council member does not follow the rules?  If a council member is in direct violation of the rules, their chair will be terminated, and their clan will not be allowed to vote upon or submit proposals for the remainder of that season.  Abstaining from more than 5 votes per season would be one of the reasons for losing their chair for the season.

?  Where are the proposals posted?  The proposals are posted in the Proposals Forum, which can only be accessed by council members.  This is the forum in which council members can place votes and submit proposals.  This forum will also show the statistics of the council members: how many proposals they have submitted, how many votes (yes, no, or abstained), if this member has been warned by the moderator or not, and which proposals they have voted, and how they voted upon those proposals.  No secret votes.  Also, when a proposal is posted, it will be given a proposal number.  

Example of Proposal Numbers:  CP1.1 = Council Proposal week 1, proposal 1.  The second proposal made during that week would be CP1.2, and so on.  The numbers are specific to when the proposal was made, not who made it.

?  What if a council member posts something other than a proposal in the proposals forum?  The moderator will delete that post and issue a warning to that member.  A council member will void their chair upon the second warning.  One warning is enough.  The proposal forum is for proposals and voting only.  These warnings would also be shown in the members? statistics.  


     In closing, I believe that this council would be very useful.  It would take some time to implement, but I feel that if it is implemented, most of the framework has already been posted above.  Again, this council would only be for rules proposals.  The main forum would still be used for personal attacks, flame wars, clan bashing, and Ghost Recon bashing.  Only registered council members could log into the proposals forum.  Also, I feel that this council is needed so that many of the clans who barely participate will participate more by knowing the rules, and getting to know the leaders from other clans.  There is no reason why the BL?s Ghost Recon Ladder can?t be friendlier towards all members.  I think it all starts with the leaders, and poor leaders reflect poorly upon the clans that they represent.

     Thank you all for taking the time to peruse this little proposal of mine.  I just think it is about time that the clans participate and have an active role in other aspects of the Battle League that they are a part of.  

     --- |n|`Noto

Hey bucc...

Yeah well we started this league not to replace the DAMN league... but to add more options of having fun an makin it count...

Now people can compete without being in a clan.. in the 1v1 and 2v2 ladders...

As for making newer rules an keeping it simple..
If you challenge someone on the website itself, its up for everyone to see with day options and you can even pick the first map being the challengee...

I mean the rules are pretty simplified... As simple as you can make them...

This is a league and we have to be carefull not to make them too simple or they become very vauge(sp?) Meaning people can interpet that rule diffrently...

We have our rules setup as:
BTL Main rules..
GhR Specific rules
and then ladder specific rules such as no sensors for the 1v1...

Although I have'nt started playing GhR yet, I started out thinking this council thing was an egotistical move to make ppl think they have some power over other ppl or clans. But now I believe this to be a good idea since there are many clans in the BL it is important for those of you who participate in it to have a voice of reason. Mauti and his crew may be the originators of this BL and for that we are all thankful, but he has had a hard time taking others opinions and making requested changes that affect the game. Because of this I have seen many clans drop out of the RS ladder because their voice was never heard or paid attention to. But at the same time you cannot have revolving rules and regulations, the rules and such need to be set at the beginning of the BL and last the entire session.

The council of members should get together with Mauti after all of their voting and suggestions are complete and submit them to him, as if he were the President. This should be taken care of during the time after the BL has ended and before the next is begun. At this time Mauti would reserve the right to accept or veto any or all submissions. This is because it would not be hard for ppl to team up and wreck things, or to just make rules they like.

Good luck and I hope to see you in the next season once my new comp arrives I will be able to run GhR and I am looking forward to combat.

*TF6_Kilzo*

     In boxing, the boxers are competing for a prize purse. The winner takes the money home, but the loser doesn't get money taken away for losing. The purse points system's primary source of appeal to me is that nobody loses points. During our discussion, I was adamant on keeping that characteristic because it seems to me that the main source of CB dodging is the fear of losing points. In the purse points system as outlined here, there's never a direct penalty for losing, which removes some of the psychological burden of CBing a clan that will present you with a difficult fight.

     During our discussion, we all liked several characteristics of the purse points system. One was that it doesn't allow one clan to run away with points (or rather, allows it but makes it relatively easy to catch up and stay in the running). Another was that it encourages activity by not having CB limits and by not having a loss penalty, as well as making the league into a situation where clans' points continue rising throughout the season, making it necessary to be active if you don't want to be left in the dust. The main thing that everyone liked, however, was the sheer simplicity of the system. No formulae, no complex scripts, barely any rules. A system that can be fully understood with about five minutes' study. Contrast that with the current system, which never seems to give the points the formulae indicate, and which has enough rules to make lawyering and loopholing a common occurrence.

     The points system should be as simple as possible. Other aspects of the league may have to be complex, but this one doesn't.

     The Council section of the forum should be viewable by all forum members, but (of course) only Council members should have posting rights in that section. It's better to allow the clans the ability to not only see what's on the docket, but to keep an eye on their councilmen.

Now pardon me if this hasn't been mentioned yet... but how do "professional" competitions handle all of this?  Schedules!

Given an extra week for signups and the inability to admit clans midseason, this BL could have a sort of cb schedule (granted the term is a bit inaccurate for what I have in mind).  Every clan must play all the others once, or maybe twice each.  If you do not meet a certain quota of cbs, you do not qualify for the finals.  This way it is in your interest to play the same number of cbs as everyone else.  No big deal if you don't play everyone, as long as you play enough to meet this reasonable "cb quota" that we can come up with.

As far as points go, the current system would be sufficent if penalties for not meeting the quota were installed.

Hopefully I made some sense.  ;D

     Scheduled matchups in a round-robin or tournament form are the best solution, one that would fix virtually every problem with the BL in one fell swoop. Not to mention that there are very well-established precedents for any problem that arises with such a system.

     Here's the problems, the reasons why we aren't already using a scheduling system. First, the biggest problem, we don't have enough competitors. We're a tiny league. In a PC gaming league, with hundreds of clans, scheduling isn't too much of a problem, because there is always someone else to play. Second and more damningly, our clans just don't want to participate in scheduled battles. The BL is not a high enough priority in most of our lives to make us want to switch to a scheduled system. Yes, a scheduled system would be the best solution. No, it will never be adopted. Thus our consideration of alternatives which capture as many of the scheduled system's benefits as possible without requiring schedules. ::shrug::

Eight,

You didn't cover the problems I pointed out with a rank only based system.  Or the possible abuses.  Way to call me out and then ignore it all.

I don't care if a challenge feature is built into the web site, as it can be built into any web site and isn't part of the score/rank system.  It is still an add on.  With possible abuses.

Simple doesn't mean vague.  

And, if you didn't make the battle tech league to compete with the DAMN BL, why is it that the tone of your posts aren't in improving (important word there) the DAMN BL, but more along the "hey, look at this league over here" tact?  Just look at this thread or others.  You don't seem to be trying to improve anything here as much as sell the BTs League.  It's all, "this is what we've done", "we have simple rules", and "look at our system", but you aren't really talking about improvements.  You haven't really laid out those rules here, have you?  Not for me, but for everyone to look at.  You sure seem to be competing more then helping in the threads I've seen you posting.

Aramath,

I completely agree with Loth on this one.  A scheduled league would be the best option, but so hard to pull off in our community.

Just on a side note, I'm one of those guys that thinks it would be better to vote on the BL Mods (and have separate mods for RS and GhR).

And it has nothing to do with the current Mods either, since I have absolutely no complaint about the job they've done.  The reason I'm saying it is because I'm looking at what the Council solution is trying to solve, and wondering how it will ever get anything done.  

I mean, spell it out.  You don't create a solution like this without it being to address a problem(s).  So what are they?  

1) to get more clans involved - fix bad leadership.  How will this fix bad leadership?  If a clan leader doesn't log on now, get to know people now, how will him blowing of the council change anything?  You can't make it mandatory, not if you want real participation.

2) make clans friendlier.  How will this make clans more friendly towards each other?  The clans interaction will still be on the forums and in GameRanger, where most of it already is.  

3) to let clans have a more active role in the league.  Ok, it's more active, I'll give you that.  But why?  Is Mauti not doing a good job?  Or the Mods?  A good job but not good enough?  Are they not listening?

Here's my take on it.  Mauti is listening to all our suggestions, and doing it well.  Most of the people here would take it as a personal attack the way this stuff keeps coming up.  He hasn't.  

Do I think that the scoring system and rules need to be changed.  Yes.  And I've posted my thoughts about them.  

But, and this is a big but (the kind of but so big if it were on a woman Jeb would be looking like he had a kick stand).  I do not want to be part of a league that has the need to change rules this often.  You are talking about rule changes that COULD happen every week.  That would bug the living shit out of me.  One of the problems I already have is that the rules change too often in the middle of a season.  My own opinion on it is, unless it's a huge problem, all rule changes should wait till the following season.  But stuff like how often you CB, who can CB, how many, if PC's are allowed, etc.  All that should wait for the following season.

If you agree with that, there is a much more simple solution.  Ask Mauti to keep a thread or a new forum just to keep track and discuss suggestions for improvements to the BL.  Just to make it easier to keep track of.  

Then, if you want to make the clans feel like they are more involved, or make sure they aren't being screwed over by the Mods, let the clans vote on who the BL Mods are for the Season.  Personally, VooDoo and Dr No would still get my vote, as I think they have done fine, and if they want to do it, more power to them.  But I think that's a much easier way to empower clans and make them feel involved.  

I commend all of those who have contributed time and effort into this issue already and i think you are all doing a great job!

However i firmly believe that working independently from the Damn BTL might be more effective, working with in the system, kind of like a special interest group. I feel the proposals on the floor don't stand a chance of being well organized enough to be in place by season 5. So prepare for that by setting up your group say two reps from each clan willing to contribute, get together and lay down the fat, the real issues to be dealt with foremost -- agree to something and present it to Damn work with Mauti to have the ideas installed.

Basically, I believe in the evolution of the system! Right Now the league works and has been, maybe not perfectly but it works. I feel that if you try and new governing system without it slowly coming to power you stand a chance of interior melt down that might cause the league to fail and i don't think andyone wants to see this happen. Maybe i am too much of a noob and you true veterans don't care what i have to say, if that is the case let me know ill stop taking up forum space

26ralee

     Well, the idea behind the council was hardly to be a governing board. Mauti and the mods would still have as much power as they have now, it's just that there would be a formal system in place for clans to put their two cents in.

     That said, I'm tending to lean away from the Council idea now. I think Bucc hit it on the head the other night when the MPs were talking about this stuff on NF: the Council would be too complicated, and would therefore just add new problems. Based on Bucc's statements in the other Council thread, voting for mods would accomplish much of what the Council is supposed to do, with much less overhead.

     You're right, 26, a meeting of clans to discuss fixes for issues encountered this season would be a good idea. However, any new scoring system that is put into place, such as the purse points system, should fix most of the existing problems by itself, or else there's no point to installing a new system. Hopefully we will have a resolution on what the new scoring system will be before the next season, so that the clans can discuss it with full knowledge.

I'm sorry Bucc,

I tried answering your problems to the pure ranking system, but i don't see the problem?

If you want to move up you win. Every clan here has lost at least 3 times this season.. Which any lost could change the outcome of the whole ladder.

You would like to move up an challenge a person on GameRanger... they say no? Then you challenge on the site... then the other person has the option of forfieting right away, or deciding the dates and then getting the game on...

I know if i was in 3rd or 2nd place i am for sure challenging 1st place to move up, wouldnt you? And if the person stays inactive for a certain amount of time they get dropped in ranks...

So again what is the problem?
I re-read the lengthy post that was kinda ment for me... Yet I still dont see the problem....

Help me understand Bucc. I'm Sorry for wasting your time there bro.... Just I don't get what is wrong with the pure ranking system...

Don't Boxers and Tennis players do this?
(Your only allowed to challenge higher ranked players but only so many ranks, same as our league)


And yes i do sound like a broken comercial for BTL...

Sorry, but JOIN THE BATTLETEK LEAGUE!
[www.battlteksquad.com]!

Um, eight, did you happen to read where I point out places it can be abused?

You may have re-read it, but you haven't answered any of the points.  Let's see, I mentioned the problem with your timer and what if BS happens and the CB doesn't go off.  I mentioned how #1 could lose often on your system, and still be #1.  And I pointed out that most of what you are talking about isn't about the Rank system, but about a challenge feature.  

Want more?  Everyone challenges #1.  Clans ranked 2 - 10.  So 1 picks and chooses which ones he'll take, avoiding the ones he's afraid of.  The second ranked clan never get's the chance.  All the 1st ranked clan has to do is stay active, remember?

Ok, then you add a rule that says they go down if they don't accept a challenge.  All 10 clans challenge them.  What can they do?  Then you add a rule about one challenge at a time, hmm, so now there is a different limiter.

And so far, I'm only talking about the challenge system.  Like I said eight, you should have stuck around when we were discussing the problems before you ran off and made the BTs League.

Other problems, 3 beats 1 and doesn't move into first (even if they have more wins / better record).  5 beats 1, etc.

No, the problem is that a rank only based system (like boxing and tennis) is based off something you don't have.  A governing body that actually does the ranking.  That is the biggest flaw.  You are modeling a system of ranking without putting everything in place for it.  I pointed this out months ago.  Also, in your examples of ranked based systems, you do go down for losing.

That's when we got the bright idea that basically, the skill points should be based off rank, and not a formula that depends on the overall score of the clans.  We needed something to replace the people that judge rank.  And we kept looking at our prime example, boxing.  The other thing we noticed about boxing is that the purse is usually tied to rank.  And there you have it.

By basing the skill points (we call purse points to distinguish them) on rank, you lose the problem that a clan can sit back and fight a bunch of low ranked clans at the end and still get max points for it.  Right now, if I don't CB till near the end, I can still get the maximum points against anyone.  And I can do that a few times without having to actually face the top clan(s).  Because it's based on points, and my having low points since I haven't CB'd makes it advantageous for me.  Another thing is that the number 1 clan gets the same amount of points for CB'ing anyone.  It's more attractive for them to CB low ranked clans under the current system.  And under your system too (and don't bring up the challenge system, because we are talking about how ranking is done).  With purse points, if they want to stay on top, they have to fight good clans.

Bottom line.  A Rank system where you move up halfway and don't lose ground makes it too easy to stay on top.  You can lose and lose and lose, and still be #1.

Ok first of all...

The script only allows one challenge at a time.. the #1 team can decide not to take this challenge which then becomes a forfiet for that team meaning the challenging team moves up..

It's not a rule its apart of the script its automated this way.

...
As for the "want more" i was in 3rd place on the 1v1 and beat the #1 ranked player an moved into 1st place.

You don't go down for loosing... you move down when someone else earns a spot ahead of you. You stay inactive and you move down rankings... as to not hog up the ranks...

Bottom line the better team will be ranked higher if the better team looses a game to another team then that team earns the right to move up...

By not having a cb limit, each team is encouraged to cb more and not worry about moving down the line... making for a ladder that will be more in use... especially with all these new clans already doing practice cbs....

And we started this new league to create MORE opertunities for EVERYONE to have fun battling in DIFFRENT game styles..
i.e. 1v1, 2v2, team, team siege, and close quarters combat.

Something DAMN isn't doing nor does it seem like its coming in season 5 either.

I hope i answered your problems with our current ranking/league system.

Challenge feature, not rank scoring.  There is a difference between the two.


A script is just an automated rule.


Then your explanation of the rank based system isn't accurate either, is it?  Even on your site it says you move half the distance, but half the distance between first and third is second, no?  So it's not the black and white simple that you have said.  Where does it cut off?  You are touting the system without giving out the information.


Like I said, you can lose and lose and lose, and still be in first place.  How is that right?  So if 1st loses to 20th, 20th is now 10th.  1st loses to them again, 20th (10th after last win) is now 5th.  In the mean time, 1st loses to 3 other low ranked clans.  Tell me, in what universe should a system let a clan stay in first after losing to low ranked clans like that?  It may not be likely, but it sure as hell is possible as you have laid the ranking system out.


Depends on the rules of the challenge system.  If you are only allowed to challenge within so many ranks, then that limits the number.  And how much time to complete a challenge?  That limits the number of CB's too.

Here's another problem.  It relies on the challenge system too much.  There is nothing in the Rank system that encourages CB's.  If the higher ranked clans have nothing to gain by CB'ing lower ranked.  They may not have anything to lose, but also nothing to gain.  So it's up to a challenge system to make it work.  

Now, why don't you spell out all the rules about the challenge system, and we can point out all the abuses that can take place with it?  And don't say it's all automated.  Scripts are just automated rules.

I'm not saying that a challenge system is impossible, but I'm saying the rank / scoring system should be able to stand on it's own, without the need for a challenge system.  


And it doesn't seem like you are contributing to it being better either.  Seems like you are just trying to get people to switch.  


Nope.

Just a little addition, since I decided to go check out what rules were posted on your league.

First thing I noticed.  Since the challenge system isn't in effect for the siege league, The first ranked clan can pretty much just sit on top, never CB'ing anyone that could beat them, and no way to bypass them.

Now, onto the challenge rules.

You can challenge up to 8 ranks above you.  But not below you?  So, basically, The best team can get knocked out of first just by nobody challenging them in the set amount of time, right?

A team has 4 days to respond to a challenge, and that's just to give possible dates of when.  Then, the challenging team has up to 4 days to pick a time.  But then, there is only a 12 hour window to do the CB?  And I'll quote here:
? A challenged team must then respond to your challenge selecting 4 time/dates and 1 maps.
  ? The earliest a match can be scheduled for is 12 hours after the latest finalizing time.
  ? The latest a match can be scheduled for is 1 days after the the latest finalizing time.
  ? Match times can be between 12 am and 11 pm EST.
  ? You must then finalize the challenge within 96 hours of the challenged team accepting.

Ok, so let's figure this out.  Latest finalizing time is 192 hours (96 +96) from the challenge time (8 days).  But, what it really seems to be is 96 hours after responding with the dates and time. 9(4 days).  Now, the earliest it can be scheduled for is 4.5 days after responding (96 hours being the latest finalizing time plus 12 hours) and the latest can be is 5 days (96 hours plus one day).  So, that's a 12 hour window according to the rules there.  

Match times only between 12am and 11pm EST?  So, what's special about 11pm to midnight that you can't have a match in that one hour??  And if that's just a typo (which would be funny, because it's the same on each page I checked), then you are saying noon - 11pm EST?  Shit, even my clan, all in North America doesn't CB that early, and you are punishing people in different time zones if that's the case.  Oh, and here's an interesting thought.  What if that 12 hour block of possible time happens to be in the black out period?

You give over a week to schedule a match, but a forefit is only 10 minutes?

Did you say simple?

ok first on to your last post...first...

Well in regards to the siege ladder... if you noticed there are no rules for the siege ladder as of yet so no need to have clans challengin each other...

So when we get the siege ladder working then yes then u can challenge.

next on to the challenge rules...
YOU CAN challenge a clan the old fashion way.. according to the rules no schedule matches are allowed...

and yes 4 days...
Imagine if your the leader of your clan... and only u take control... like most clans... You play at the office and decided to go home for the weekend... if we set this to less days you can be forfieting matches without knowing....

And with the power of gameraner youd be so suprised  at how quickly one clan will tell another that they have been challenged.

Now the challenge system.. since you never tried it...
1. A person challenges you
2. You then get to choose 4 dates and 1 map.
3. The one challenging then chooses 1 of those 4 dates and then finalizes the challenge...
4. once both parties have finalized an agreed with everything, they even could do it before the date schedule if wanted....

Yes still simple.. unless your a monkey...

As for the league again i say, that it was created for more styles of gameplay so clans dont get stuck playing other games (dungeon siege) being bored of one style of clan battling.

And as for me not contributing to this league? I played over 55 cbs this season alone... I try an help keep this league alive by playing as much as i can... Yes i went out an started another league... But at least i was upfront an honest about it (magleague?)


and once im done eating ill respond the the post before last...

Ok..

I'm not to keen on that qouting stuff so im going to # each little blue box and respond to em.

1. That is the challenge system... and the result is scoring for not acceptng a challenge.

3. You move half way up... So if your in 3rd an you beat #1 u move halfway which should be 1.5... Which then the script rounds upwards.. In this case moving #3 to #1 spot. Instead of the 1.5 spot.

4. You scoring system doesn't allow for penalty points for loosing right? As in you don't loose points for loosing a cb right?
Well if a person/team is in 1st place and if you can't loose points using your system.. then the guy in 20th place would need to play 1st a few times in order to move up the quickest by gaining the max amount of points correct? Same as the ranking system only less numbers by not using Points... Points make things a bit more difficult... why look at points when you see who is ranked what...


5. Since i explaind the whole challenge thing in the previous post... ahh lemme just say it again...
You can do the old fashion way of chalenging someone... Just goto Gameranger and ask... Meaning that the rules allow for no schedule matches... It's in the rules... trust me i know...

6. I am contributing by trying to giving damn suggestions as to what has worked so far on our league... Again what have you done for DAMN? other then make up this purse system for magleague only to be rejected and now coming here like your DAMN's saviour? And making me look like the bad man for mentioning it all here...

Hey i remember awhile back another member of our fine league (DAMN) posted some rule suggestions and posted a link to another league which is one of the finest PC leagues around.

Dude... Seriously... Don't knock it till you try it..

You all have said that there are alot of problems with the ranking system yet i still have yet to see one. Especially since most PC ladders (some of the more successful ones) run this script.

Now i think i have re-answered everything for you...

If you have any questions be sure to read the small Help/FAQ on our site and if you need further assitance you can msg or email any of the BTL admins...


Thnx Bucc..
Peace

But, you said this was for different game types, and you don't have the siege game type in there?  Ok, that makes sense.


That change a thing about the problem I brought up.  Since one can't use the challenge feature, if nobody challenges them (or agrees to play them) they drop out of first.  Let's see if the monkey can figure that one out.


What does this have to do with what I said?  What are you answering?  I pointed out that it takes 8 days to set up a challenge according to your rules, but there is only a 12 hour window to play the actual game in.  12 hours.  hmm.  

Way to not answer another question at all.


Ah, I love it when people make stupid assumptions and look like complete idiots.  So, I've never been in a league with a challenge feature, is that what you are telling me eight?  Nice try to dismiss me, but it is not the case.


Well then, maybe I should ask the monkey, it would probably answer the problems with that <sarcasim> simple</sarcasim> set of rules.  Way to ignore the problems I pointed out with the rules pulled from your own site.  Congrats.  Want a banana?


Ignores the point.  You are here in a thread where we are talking about how to improve THIS LEAGUE, and it seems you are just trying to advertise your league.  That's the point.

Oh, and what about magleague are you talking about?  I'm interested in hearing this?  It should be creative if nothing else.

So, where we stand on the first half.  What didn't Eight really answer?
- he still doesn't understand the difference between a challenge system and a score/rank system.  He keeps just talking about them like it's all one thing.
- he completely missed the point about it taking 4-8 days to play a challenge CB, but the rules only allow for a 12 hour window to pick the dates/times to play in.
- he didn't talk about the match time restrictions at all.

So, basically, he didn't really answer anything in that post.  Let's try for the second half now.

What I'm talking about, again, is that the challenge system is not the rank system.  You are treating it as one.  The whole RANK SYSTEM is flawed.  It's biggest flaw is that without the challenge system, it doesn't work at all.  I also keep pointing out that a challenge system can be added to any ladder.  So please stop using the challenge system to defend the RANK BASED SCORING.  Thank you.

BTW, what happened to #2?


Where did you learn that math?  That must be that new math.  If you move half way from 3 to 1 you end up in 2nd place by my math.

Let's see.  The difference between 1 and 3 is 2.  Half of 2 is 1.  Moving up one from 3rd is 2nd.  So, if you move half the distance from 3rd to 1st, you get 2nd.

Let's see, where did your math come from?  1.5 is half of 3.  I thought it was half the distance, not half the number.  If it works your way, if I'm in 20th, and I beat 19th, I move up to 10th, right?  Half of 20 is 10, right?  Well, that's the way you did the math there.  Half of 3, not half the DIFFERENCE, like you talk about.

So, is the math screwed up in your scripts?  Or the faq's that explain it?

BTW, the monkey thinks it's 1.5  =D


Wow, you missed the base completely with that one.  In fact, I think you ran back to the dugout.  

First, my 4th point was how under your RANK SYSTEM, first could lose and lose and lose, have more losses then wins, and still be in first, as long as they didn't lose to #2 (or even #3 in your new math).  First could have 3 times as many losses as wins, and still be in first.

Second, in the system we brought up, 1st can get passed by other clans, just by them winning against other good clans enough.  The only way a team could be in first with many losses under our system is if they CB'd many many more times then anyone else.  And they'd still have to win more then they lost.

Third, Purse Points don't make it more difficult at all.  You know how many points you will get for beating them without doing any math.  I don't have to figure out what the half way point is of 38 going against 19.  Easy, but I don't have to do it.  All I have to do is look at the fact that 19 has X amount of purse points up for grabs and where will that put me.  A simple addition vs a subtraction and divide by 2.  I think the single step wins for simplicity.  Sorry.  No points for you that round.


Doing it the old fashioned way.  True.  But you touted that it "encourages more CB's".  Doing it the old fashioned way isn't really encouraging more cb's, it's doing it the same old way.  Hmm.  Didn't really answer the concern there either.

I notice that you continue to duck the point that the Challenge Feature should be separate from the Rank System.  That the Rank System should be able to stand on it's own.


Hmm, that's an interesting take on it.  Want me to get the boys from MagLeague in here and ask them if they rejected this?  Since MaG is running on my servers, I don't think they'd reject it at all if I asked them to script it up.  Hell, I could even set myself up as the head of the ladder.  But that's not what I'm looking for.  Same for the rest of the guys involved with this (since, it's as much Loth, Jeb, Brain and Ace as it is me)  we all worked on it.

But that's ok, you can just print something like that out of your ass, and be wrong.  It's always amusing to watch.  Oh, I wont deny that we talked about offering it up to MagLeague when we were talking about a SIEGE LADDER.  But, that's right, you weren't in all those conversations and are making assumptions.  When we decided that a siege ladder was just going to be too much BS.


NOT EVEN CLOSE.  You have ducked most of the points that I made that are wrong with the system, and just tried sling some mud (and not very well).


I posted right from your pages, and you just ignored it.  Like it would do any good to send in an e-mail.

Whatever Eight.  You asked what was wrong, and I pointed.  You can ignore it, that's fine by me.  But you ignoring it isn't really going to drive clans to your ladder now, is it.

Ok maybe i wont resspond to you...

1.5 + 1.5 = 3
Did i do the math wrong?
The siege ladder is up for you to signup on just hasnt started yet...

4 days to setup the challenge...

You know what your taking everything i said and changing everything around...

Besides i was told by one of the MP guys about MagLeague not wanting to host any GhR Ladders... to me that looks like your idea was rejected. Sorry if i assumed wrong... There is alot of that going around... on both ends..

     Hopefully we can stop discussing the BT League now and resume discussing the *DAMN League. : ) The fifth season is rapidly approaching, and there has been no resolution, let alone adequate discussion, regarding the matter of a remade point system. The purse points system has been laid out for the community's perusal, so what do you think of it? Are there any alternative ideas rattling around out there? What do you think of Mauti's new system? Tune in next time, same bat-time, same bat-channel!

I really like this purse-points system and move that it be accepted as the offical ranking system for the *DAMN BL.

However, if Mauti or anyone has another rank system or changes to the purse-points system, please post your ideas, I look forward to reading them.

Mauti, how long till we can get a look at all the changes you plan to make for season 5?

Actually there will be a 5week break between season 4 and 5 so we can work and finish some of our scripts that are in the work for quite a while.

So far a modified "purse point system" will come, namly as Combat Point System with penalty points. However I#ll discuss this once the season 4 is over.

Bye,

Mauti

     That's good to hear, Mauti. Hurry up with the finals, people. : D

     The season's over, so let's hear your plans, Mauti.  ;D  I, for one, am excited about this process.

Am I the only one who feels that the current season length is too damn long?  I don't think we should expect clans to keep up for such a long span of time. Individuals lose interests and in the span of 3 months a lot of people retire.  You obviously don't want a season too short, but you also don't want a season too long...