*DAMN R6 Forum

It is quite amusing to me the way many people argue thier points. you see someone will bring up a good point in a debate (the someone is usually bondo, tasty, or that newer guy whos name I forget and isnt an American) haha just kidding but anyway then a response constitutes a page long response about one line in the debate. I don't see any Bush supporters adressing the fact that Isreal brakes U.N. Resolution daily although I have brought that up many times as has that new guy. You see if I pot a one paragraph question to Bucc about why we let Isreal break the U.N. rules but we dont let Iraq then he doesnt answer me, just like in the closed Tax conversation I mentioned that the bulk of the money went to the upper income brackets, where was anyones response to that quote? Maybe if people stopped scrolling long answers that could be chopped into a paragraph with links then our threads wouldnt keep getting locked.                 Maybe if instead of writing pages and pages of flame throwing nonsense someone would answer me about Why we back Isreal although it breaks U.N. resolutions daily, in a short, concise response and limited the cursing and flamethrowing which ammounts to nothing then we could carry on a debate and maybe knock some sense into each other.

seriously, I dont know. maybe its just cuz that much of the people in israel got killed in world war 2 so that nobody wants to do anything bad to them anymore.

Zaitsev,

There aren't many Bush supporters here, if you haven't noticed.  

And your question about whey the USA supports Isreal has been answered more then once.

And it's spelled "Israel", damn you! ;)

Ah, you spelled Israel wrong, you dumbshit, uneducated piece of shit.  Your points shall forever be meaningless to me.

/sarcasm

LOL.  

Damn half assed oppionated un-educated kids  Remind me to also ignore all future posts ;) Ah yes, bad spelling = stupidity didn't somone tell me?

I wouldn't have been the 'new guy' possibly with the half page long posts and the questions about america (yes yes and us too) attacking iraq for breaking UN resolutions.. .but not doing anything about Israel? If im not... Id also like to know.. Im sure ive mentioned it before somwhere.... and id love to know the answer.

Im possitive that the Holocaust and events in WWII have a huge element in whats happend.... Just perhaps the reason that there is a very large Jewish population in the US, who back israel, means that the government isn't too keen on pissing them off, loosing their vote, and thus loosing power...


Bucc.... Could you perhaps explain it one more time why this is so? I have hunted around for this mystical explaination on the double standards dealing with israel... I'd love to read it becasue it must be good. very good... I mean if there is a defence for helping a country to illigally occupy land, and then to systematically harrass, murder and...
And whats the answer when the media and the ISM (International Solidarity Movement) happen to get shot by the israelis while in palestine? Well the army just says 'this is a dangerouse and restricted military zone.. what do you expect'... Or perhaps when the israeli bulldozers happen to drive over a few ISM volenteers? 'unavoidable accident while working in a dangerouse war zone' Bullshit.
It is called palestine, not an israeli shooting gallery. Amazing as it might seem, people live there, and shooting kids in the head while they walk to school is not how you deal with terrorism (And just for reference can i say I do not agree in any way what hamas is doing in terms of the sucide bombings. Its horrific). But will people not do anything they can to protect themselves and their country from an invading force.. understandably? But what is more horrific is that a country can use its military to repress a group of people so much, and to flaunt UN resolutions again and again.

A friend of a friend was out in palestine with tht ISM. He was there when, a group of them in bright florecent jackets were trying to protect a palestine family and their house from being flattend by israeli bulldozers (supplied by the US). When the ISM guys wouldn't move... the army fired tear gas over their heads and pepperd machine gun fire at their feet. Some of them wouldn't move. A bulldozer moved forward only feet away from one of the girls, but wouldn't stop.. Despite screams and shouts from the other ISM members, and the fact that she was clearly visible in the florecent jacket, the bulldozer continued. She was crushed, and died shortly after...

Ok reading back over that i made a few mistakes... and it wasn't the clearest explanation. So if you have a moment take a look at this link and tell me what you think:  http://www.palsolidarity.org/activists/rachelcorrie/rachel_Joedetails.htm (http://www.palsolidarity.org/activists/rachelcorrie/rachel_Joedetails.htm)

I read about that incident at znet.com.  It is tragic.

My feeling is, terrorists are bad people who don't follow the rules, that is a given, but if the supposedly legitimate military forces don't follow the rules (be it Israeli, American, etc) they are no better than terrorists either.

Israel has killed more innocent civilians than suicide bombers acting in the name of Palistine have.  Just like in WWII, this is probably better considered a war of high collateral damage since both sides are willingly taking it.  Due to this, I actually think the term freedom fighters is more apt for the Palistinian terrorists.  I wish they could work it out, but unless Israel acts the bigger country and follows the rules, it won't.  I put the responsibility to stop the violence on the Israelis (and they aren't to stop it by killing people).

Anyway, about the WWII excuse for the creation of Israel, I feel two wrongs do not make a right.  Just because Hitler did a horribly wrong thing, doesn't justify doing the wrong thing by forcibly putting millions of Jews in the Middle East.  They could have settled in America like the many millions others did.

What everyone fails to realize is that the Israeli military is focused on killing terrorists in Palestine, and they accidentally end up killing civilians at times. On the other hand, the main goal of the Palestinean terrorists is to kill, maim, and scare Israeli civilians. Given these two camps, it is no surprise that people show Israel more leniency than say Iraq where Saddam violated UN resolutions just cuz he was a sick fuck of a dictator who liked torturing his own people.

One more thing. In Zait's original post, he said something about the rich getting more from the tax cuts. No shit sherlock. They pay more taxes, both in percentages and actual dollars, so it is logical that they would receive more money from a tax cut.

I know I asked this once before, but I don't think anybody answered. If you people are all for total equality and that crap, why should the rich pay an unequal percentage of their income in tax?

How do you accidently bulldoze over someone who you can clearly see and is wearing a bright flurecent jacket?
How do you accidently shoot a reporter in the head with a sniper rifle?
How do you accidently mow down school children for throwing stones at you?
How does a trained military force manage to kill so many civilians?
How does rounding up International observers and deporting them so they can't see the attorcities being carried out?

Is that what we call accidents?

Iraq violated a fraction of the resolutions passed by UN than Israel has, is and is and will continue to do. One of the main reasons our (yes I am aware that the UK was part of the allied forces bucc) went to war was becasue our goverments produced or claimed to have intellegance that said Saddam had WOMD that could be activated in an increadbly short ammount of time (I think it was like 40 mins or somthing).
Israel on the otherhand has one of the largest stockpiles of nuclear weapons.

Lots of accidents? Amazing coincidence. funny how easily a trained army can shoot so many citizens.

Yeah Ace, kind of like it would be an accident if say in a baseball game I accidently hit you with my bat...30 times...in a row.

As for why the rich should pay an unequal percentage...who are "you people" exactly Ace?  What I want equal or much more equal is quality of life, I don't care about equality of tax rate.  A person with 100k or more can pay half and still have a perfectly survivable life.  If a person making 15k were to pay 50% they would die.

I don't feel sorry at all for the person that got bulldozed. Just because you're protesting doesn't mean you'll always get your way. That girl entered a stand-off with a bulldozer operator, and lost. Yes, it's sad that a life was lost, but what do you expect? SHE WAS STANDING INFRONT OF A BULLDOZER! She was interupting a military operation. She put herself in a dangerous situation and was too stubborn/stupid to move out of the way. You can call me cynical or a sociopath or whatever the hell you want. But the fact is her death was a direct result of her own actions. No one forced her to stand infront of a moving bulldozer. Peaceful protest or not, she shouldn't have been there in the first place and not expect to get killed. Survival of the fittest.
 I'm not sure what to say about the reporter, because I haven't heard that story until now. The fact is, the media distorts facts. I'm sure in a few of these cases, the victims weren't entirely innocent. I'm not denying the fact that Israel's hands are very dirty. Just don't make a martyr out of an idiot.

Mellow, in the US people occasionally chain themselves to trees or climb in trees to keep them from being cut down.  If a company came in and cut down the tree with them in it and they died, you can bet your ass they'd be held responsible and pay for it.  They have full right to press charges against those in the trees and get them arrested and once they are out of the way do their work, but they can't just kill them.  Same applies to the peace protesting.  They can't just kill without being held accountable, even if the person is standing in between a bulldozer and some other thing.

Yes, I agree, but the person who died was still largely responsible for their death. I know it's a bit of a different scenario, but let's say there's a firefight going on between some Palestinian terrorists and the Israelis. Now, a few hippies decide that they're going to protect the Palestinians from "The Man" and become their human shields in an attempt to stop the Israelis. Now, let's say those hippies get shot. Who's fault is it? Of course it's the hippies. They put themselves in the line of fire. It doesn't matter what their intention is, they were the ones that chose to put themselves between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

I agree, that is different, that is more like jumping out in front of a moving vehicle, not standing in front of a parked one assuming they won't hit you.

My point is that Israel is deliberately harming innocents.  If they are in a stopped bulldozer with the protester in between, and they start rolling it forward, they don't get to assume the person will move and just go.

Ahh I guess you win, partially. But still, I think we can both agree that the person that got killed wasn't the brightest crayon in the box.

I don't think it is a question of intelligence, it is a question of how much she was willing to give for the cause, I don't think just because we don't think it is particularly worth her life that we should conclude she is stupid for standing her ground and being wrongly killed.

Bondo, when I say "you people," I meant the whiny liberals on here who scream when women/gays/minorities get "oppressed." I mean the people who say, "Oh look, Europe is great because they are more socialist." And to continue with what I said about equality, if you want equality of life, what incentive is there for people to work hard? If I'm not going to make more than some slob sitting at home on welfare/unemployment because of a high tax rate, why should I go work my ass off? I just noticed Tasty's thread, so reply to this there.

I read the link BFG posted about the bulldozer story. Even if it is a good recollection of the events (and it would appear to be from a biased source), I'm not sure I have much sympathy for the girl. It sucks she had to die, but what do you think is going to happen when you stand in front of a bulldozer? If I stand in front of a car and it hits me, of course I'm a dumbshit and it's my own damn fault. She knew there were risks she was taking, and unfortunately for her something happened.

yeah... what happend was that the bulldozer driver decided he had had enough so he ran over her. very simply he decided that they were pissing him off so he murdered her.

So she asked for it by going there? yes she had a choice, and she chose to travel to palestine. But what about the palestinians? did they choose to be there? did they choose to have to send their kids to school under the constant eye of attach hellicopters, tanks, snipers? Did they get a choice?
The reason she and many others decided to travel there was to raise awareness to the atrocities being carried out by the Israeli army. And she certainly did raise awareness. Maybe not in some countries becasue the media dose not report on it.
I don't believe her intellegence has anything to do with it. She was willing to risk her life to try to protect the palestinians, and to raise the awareness about their plight.
The palestinians unfortunatly didn't have this luxury of choosing.

I am a whiny liberal? well if i were it would be a great preference if the allternative is a bigoted conservative. I do not believe that europe is great, fantastic or anything. It has many many flaws.

I don't think Ace or myself think that Europe is perfect. I don't think I'm a conservative or a liberal, but that doesn't matter. The fact is, she made the choice to stand infront of the bulldozer, and she didn't get out of the way when the bulldozer started moving. It doesn't matter if the bulldozer driver was purposely trying to run her over or if it was an accident. All that I'm trying to say is that it's her own damn fault she died. She could have easily gotten out of the way. I'm sure the bulldozer operator warned her repeatedly before moving forward. If she's too dumb or too stubborn to move, it's her fault. She wasn't tied to the ground. Don't try to shift the blame to the bulldozer operator. He might have been operating the vehicle, but she had plenty of time to move, and she did not. The fact that she died for a cause doesn't matter. She still brought about her own death, which is quite a wasteful thing to do, if you ask me. Death is eternal, life is not***.
Just my 2 cents.
***Depending on your religion or lack of one.

<- English.

Europe...well its a shithole  ;D

PM Blair took a vote before we went to war with america, 90% of his OWN party we're against War with Iraq...Now it is coming clear that he may have decieved the british public over the topic. So far I've seen alot of americans on these forums saying UK wanted to go to war...its not true. The british public (minus the builders) didn't want to go to war. I really wanted to say this in the other thread but its locked.

About the Israel situation, its been going on for so fucking long and it really pisses me off that noone actually does anything. Why can't they just put another berlin wall up, splitting the country where the religions meet and MAYBE just maybe when people learn that being in a different religion etc is ok then maybe we can have peace.

***Spelling is shit, sue me.  ;)

WOAH there. So Its ok to bulldoze over people now? Oh. Well the guy next door gets on my nerves, and often won't get out the way when im trying to walk past so perhaps ill go drive him over... and if he is stubben then thats ok cos then its his fault?
I cannot quite comprehend.. what ever she did, how it is ok for someone to bulldoze over another person, and then rather than stop straight away, to then plough forward, and reverse back over her again?
I'll say again, what about the palestinians? Are they being stubbord for refusing to leave their homes so they may be destroyed and by the israeli's. Are they being dumb for not wanting iraeli forces to be randomly shooting their citizens, for the illigal settlements to be constantly getting bigger and more stableised?
[sarcasm] Yes Im sure all the palestinians who have been shot have all been given nice clear warnings that they are going to be shot. The israeli army is so considerate that way. And afterall the israeli's have called the palestions homes a war zone so its fine if they all get shot, becasue the israelis have said so. [/sarcasm]

Im also English like Narauko. And I totally agree with exactly what he has said about our government.  (not the europe being shit and oh maybe minus the builders bit ;)  ) We were not a nation eager for war by any means. What a lot of people got confused was the difference between the british public wanting to go to war, and the british public supporting its soldiers who had no choice, and had a very very difficult task.  Several Key Cabinet Ministers in the government quit over the war, they did not want to be part of a government that gave the go ahead for this military action against iraq.

Am I wrong or did i hear the otherday that America is now going after N. Korea? I haven't been keeping up with the news, I kinda switched off after the Allies Vs. Iraq superbowl coverage.

Did they not just give N. Korea permission to start up in nuclear power?

I think its also weird that Germany are becoming quite an Technological advance country, maybe their building their resources to become a military force and thats why there not activly participating in wars...they probably are giving some money to the aid but after WWI and WWII history tends to repeat itself...never trust a woman with hairy armpits.

Well I misspelled Israel as well so Im not going to laugh at Bucc however on the one time that there was a specific question about Israel, Bucc has written a two-line response and dissapeared. In his two line response he says that he has addressed the backing of Israel situation many times. Well Bucc since your so great at quoting past posts, like you would have done on my misspelling had I not admitted to it, then show me where you have addressed the issue of israel. Show me one of your famous page long posts about why the United States government and much of its population supports Israel regardless of thier breaking UN laws.


Q:who can sidestep as good as Ari Fletcher?
A: bucc

I'd like to point out one fact.  There is approximately an equal number of Muslims as Jews in America...and the Muslim population is growing faster.

The Jews happen to have influence greater than their demographic share.

Yep it sure looks like it...

I also asked for the amazing answer about America's backing of Israel.....
id love to read it and im still waiting.

It's very simple. Israel was America's way of getting their foot in the door in the Middle East to counter the Soviet Union's influence in the region during the 50's. Hope that helps.

Maybe because we feel that the Palestineans are worse than the Israelis.
Maybe because we feel for a country that has been under constant threat from its neighbors since its inception.
Maybe we still feel bad about letting 6 million Jews get killed in the Holocaust.

I've still yet to see you post any proof about the atrocities you claim are happening, other than the chick who was dumb enough to stand in front of a moving bulldozer.

I had typed out a message in response to Ace , citing that Democratice Republic of Congo and the United states both fit into some of those categories however i couldnt explain it in the right words and I doubt that thats the actual reason....Do we love the  Uzi????


Bucc, have you taken a vacation or are you concocting an 8-page post filled with adobe workshop graphs and java live-stream Hardball? Either way I hope you right back on the topic soon! yours truley.

Sometimes people forget about topics they've replied in. Happens to me all the time. You can always bug him with a private message. =D

this may sound cold hearted, but i have to agree with mellow about the girl getting run over.

 seriously,what the hell did she think was going to happen when she stands in front of a military bulldozer of the ENEMY? she supported palestine, i'm sure they were already pissed off enough about that, and she's standing in their way to boot. Given, the people in the tank were bastards for running her over but she was responsible for her own life.

 Maybe i'm crazy, but when i read that post all i could think was "how stupid." she died to save a house, and a shitty one at that. if i were her, i'd have drained my savings account and given the family money for a new, better house if it meant that much. no building is worth your life.

on a closing note, this may be totally off topic but wtf is up with the cheesy title.

What she did was very effective. She got so much media attention: after all, the media doesnt care if israelis or palestinians die but AMERICANS, now that's a story! For a while, congress was considering making a special Rachel Corrie probe examining the specific case of her death and then possibly demanding some sort of tribute from Isreal for the atrocity. She brought attention to the plight of the Palestinians in a stupid, but effective way. I'll give her props for correctly estimating the media and congress' ability to act stupidly. (After all, how insulting would it be to demand an investigation into the death of ONE person in the middle east. Talk about ethnocentrism!)

She didn't really bring attention to the plight of the palestinians.. in fact, i'm sure most people weren't even thinking about that.

as you said, the media doesnt care if israelis or palestinians die. they still don't. all anyone likely cared about was the fact an american girl died.

ooooh So much to write, and so little time to do so..

Tasty she did bring attention, perhaps just not much in the US media as it seems to be so filtered by what is 'patriotic or not' or what is seen as 'ok' to show the american public?

First up = yep the israeli bulldozer killing that girl. Well i do agree that getting killed was not the best thing to do, and that still being their now would have been much more productive, but id like to point out that she wasn't actually trying to get killed! Far from it! Nobody in their right mind expects a bulldozzer to drive up to you and then flatten you do they? really? The driver should have been arrested and charged with murder with no delay. Thats it. Nothing else, I don't care whether the woman had 4 braincells three of which were on holiday. Nothing can excuss the actions of the bulldozer driver.

Oh and one thing about the ISM: they don't activly 'support' and regard the 'israeli's as the 'enamy'. They are simply trying to stop the oppression of israel against the palestinians.

Also. Ace. The attrocities? Do you watch tv? Do they not show what the israeli army is doing on american tv? I have just the smallest feeling talking to other guys that you see a lot lot less of what goes on on from the american media.... funny that.
Let me give you one or two more examples.

Shooting a ISM member (Fully marked) as he tried to shield a 6 year old boy from tank fire. He was in clear view from a sniper post and was shot in the head as he tried to lift the boy to safety.

How about the many many helecopter attacks which have killed countless civilians?
How about the mass killings in the Jenin refugee camp? (the Us covered up a lot of that and shut the red cross up as it didn't like what they were saying apparently)
How about the hundreds of children who have been shot while on their way to or from school?
I can't go on. There is no point. I cannot list every single thing I hear off. It would take too long.


How are the palestinians worse that the Israelis?
That sounds like the equivelent comment of the Nazi's: that the Jews were worse than the Arian race

Yes Im sure everyone feels for a country under constant attack and unable to defend its borders. We are talking about palestine arn't we? You can't possibly be talking about isreal? Who exactly is the country with is setting up Illigal settlment camps and carrying out illigal military 'insertions'?

What can be said about the Holocaust? It was horrific, and the same situation must never never happen.
Do you know what one of  the first movements which led to it was? It was the Nazi party subtly suggesting that it was the Jews who were to blame for all the things wrong with Germany at the time... And more and more people belived that the Jews were inferior "were worse than the Arian race".....
And the Jews were persecuted, and then things got oh so very much worse..

Am I the only one, or does anyone else see the beginnings of a similarity, the persecution etc, the attempts to remove a nation of a different religon?

BFG, I have yet to see any proof about this kinda stuff. How about throwing me a link or two to a reputable news source. What I have seen in the news I read and watch generally follows the pattern of Palestinean suicide bomber tries to kill Israeli civilains -> Israeli military attacks (insert Palestinean terrorist group here) -> Israeli military accidentally kills some Palestinean civilians in the process -> lather, rinse, repeat.

The reason I think the Palestineans are worse than the Israelis is because their attacks tend to be cowardly terrorist attacks with the specific aim of killing, injuring, and scaring the Israeli civilian population. The Israelis, on the other hand, seem to be trying to nail as many terrorists as they can and accidentally kill civilians in the process.

The reason I bring up the Holocaust is because the Israeli state was basically created as a "We fucked up, let's try and make things better for the Jews" gift from the West.


If I were to stand in front of a moving bulldozer that is busy demolishing a house, I sure as hell would expect to get hit, but maybe that's just me and my common sense.

Well it worked in T...T.... Square Im not going to try to spell it but its tasty's little picture thangy.

At anyrate ace that maybe how you see it, perhaps the Palesteans see it as   Israel incrouches into thier land -----> Israel kills civilians (accidental or not doesnt really matter in open conflict does it?)----->Palasteans take revenge by whatever means they can.        Who seems the worse now?

First off cookie, if Israel is the enemy of Palestinian citizens, then they indeed are the problem we are claiming.  If they aren't the enemy of the Palestinian citizens than the girl shouldn't have had to worry about being run over intentionally.

BFG, I don't know about Ace, but I've heard about the attacks Israel makes that kill civilians...sure they SAY they were going after some terrorist, but they always kill as many civilians as freedom fighters.

Ace, it is more like this.  Some freedom fighter kills Israeli civillians who are illegally in the Palestinian territory, Israel launches an attack killing about twice as many civillians as the freedom fighter killed along with the freedom fighter himself.  You think the end justifies the means?

I use freedom fighter specifically for the Palestinian bombers.  Al Queda doesn't fight direct oppression, but the Palestinans are equivilent to the patriots of the Revolutionary war...with advanced means.

Bondo,
      Dont even worry about trying to convince him about it because think about the war when we killed thousands because of a handful of men. Its the same thats happening in Palestine only in isolated events and if our anti-war posts didnt convince him that you shouldnt use full automatic to remove one man then certainly the Israel/Palestine conflict wont.

Ace...

You will have to bear with me while i try to dig out some links... but here is one that hit the UK headlines today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2983426.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2983426.stm)

Israeli attack helecopters blow up a car in a traffic jam which conctained a POLITICAL leader of hamas... One of the few ways of reigning in hamas and its terrorist activities is though politics. so by blowing them up Israel appears to be trying to help remove any hope of the roadmap to peace succeeding...

http://www.palsolidarity.org/reports/writings/5Jun03_TulkaremISM.htm (http://www.palsolidarity.org/reports/writings/5Jun03_TulkaremISM.htm)

Or how about the illigal siezure of land?
http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2003/06/117249.php (http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2003/06/117249.php)

Or this one... about the massacre in Lebanan.. another israeli 'misshap'?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2978970.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2978970.stm)

TO be honest Ace. It is difficult to find you the most relevant bits of information. They are scattered now, and only easy to find when the events have just occured. but Do have a good look through http://www.palsolidarity.org/ (http://www.palsolidarity.org/)   there is a huge amount of stuff there.

I left a big one off.... Take a look to see what Amnesty International has to say...
for instance http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE020052002?open&of=ENG-2D2 (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE020052002?open&of=ENG-2D2) discuss's the unusually high number of palestininan children being murderd by israeli troops.I know its a big document but Do please read it. It gives you endless counts of children being killed by the IDF.

I couldn't read it all... Its difficult not too feel violently physically sick reading what has been hapepening.

I've just read this. This maybe explains to some of you why there are guys from the west out there trying to protect the palestinans, and risking and somtimes tragiclly loosing their life in doing so

BFG, where was this information taken from? Not that I doubt you or anything, but it's not hard to make up a story and toss in a few names and dates. I'm not saying that YOU wrote it, but you could have gotten it from a not-so-credible source.

Sorry about the double post! I just noticed this. Do you honestly think you can negotiate with terrorists? The only way they will ever stopped is if the Hamas organization is destroyed or if Israel is. They aren't going to stop even if Israel pulls away all of it's settlers. Hamas is still launching terrorist attacks, even as Israel and the Palestinians are working out their little roadmap to peace.

Israel is doing the right thing by targeting the terrorists while they're driving. It shows the Hamas that nobody is safe, and retaliation can come at any time. While the attacks can be considered unethical, there's always going to be collateral damage. Why are you so busy worrying about Palestinian civilians while Hamas is openly targeting Israeli noncombatants? You don't see Israel bombing market places.

Mellow...yes, you can negotiate with terrorists when they aren't really terrorists but rather freedom fighters.  They aren't doing what they do for personal gain or simply to kill, they do it to fight for what is supposed to be, a unoccupied Palestinian state, free from Israeli oppression.

Remember that Israel has one of the stronger armies (considering their size) in the world.  Palestine has essentially no military, just a few police type forces.  How else are they expected to fight?

True. However, all terrorist organizations are fighting for one cause or another. It doesn't mean they aren't terrorists. They're targeting civilian populations to terrorize them, hoping to force the government to change it's views and such. In some ways, the American Revolutionaries were terrorists as well. However, the fact that they're fighting for a cause does not justify the killing of noncombatants.

I say we kill em, then let the hippies sort out the war crimes.

Who needs those dirty bastards anyways.

Mellow:

The statment was cut copied and pasted from an artical from the Amnesty International website:  http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE020052002?open&of=ENG-2D2 (http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE020052002?open&of=ENG-2D2)

And if you take a look, you will see i literally took one of hundreds.
I agree that you can't negotiate with terrorists... But Politicians? He was the political end of hamas, not a 'military' mastermind or anything. And what about his two children who were in the back of the car? or the woman and her baby walking past when the missiles hit?....

Im not sure how we can distinguish between them being either terrorists or freedom fighters, I believe that Hamas and other groups like them do carry out terrorist attacks, but in order to both defend themselfs (not that it helps) but also bring attention to what the israeli's are doing to them... If the palestinians simply sat down and let the israelis carry on, then i susspect things would be a very very lot worse.
No the killing of non combatants is not exusable. But it is happening on both sides. By a 'terrorist group' and by a 'trained' military... which is worse? the terrorist individuals or a orangised goverment backed military?

Serpico... Im not even going to bother with you.. other than perhaps you should shut your ass and try giving your mouth a chance to say somthing either remotly intellegent or perhaps somthing that just isn't Racist.

OK BFG, don't make me put my hood on.

I am a high school graduate you know, and it's OK for me to let my opinion be heard, don't bother to read it if all your gonna do is bitch about how insensitive I am.

If the Palestinians would take a break from the terrorist attacks, Israel would definately be more negoatiable. No country should ever let terrorists change their policies. It makes the country appear weak, and also would create more terrorism in the long run. If you knew you could get Israel to do something by killing a few hundred of their civilians, what would keep you from doing it again and again, just to get your way? It's a shame sides are too stubborn to stop attacking one another. They both feel like they're retaliating against previous attacks.
However, I don't think the terrorist attacks would stop if Israel stopped retaliating. I know for a fact that Israel would stop if the terrorist attacks stopped. It would look very bad if they're launching unprovoked helicopter attacks in the region.

Consider this Mellow, about 90% of the "innocent" civilians that the "terrorists" have killed in the Israel-Palestine incident were trespassing illegally in the Palestinian area.  In a way, these Israeli civilians are no different than a man breaking into your home and sleeping in your bed.  In the US when that man presents a threat to you, you can kill him.  Israelis are definately presenting a threat while tresspassing, so you could argue that all these terrorist attacks are actually just self-defense against criminals.

That is the crux of the issue.  Israel first needs to pull all of its military and civilians out of Palestinian territory.  THEN the terrorist groups will need to take the next step in stopping the violence (which seeing as they wouldn't have Israelis in Palestine to prey on wouldn't be that hard).  Then with the violence stopped, the political sides could make a lasting agreement.

First of all, how fast does a goddamn bulldozer go? Secondly, I quote, "When it got so close that it was moving the earth beneath her, she climbed onto the pile of rubble being pushed by the bulldozer." Clearly she saw what was coming, but decided to stay ON THE PILE OF STUFF IN FRONT OF IT. As for you saying nobody expects a bulldozer to flatten them, she was sitting in front of a military bulldozer driven by pissed off militant israelis, even if this stuff doesn't usually happen it's still incredulous to say she didn't know the risk.

next, you say the ISM doesn't regard israel as the enemy, but they do regard them as the evil, the oppressor, thus.. the enemy. And you can be sure israel thinks of them as the enemy

and in regards to your final statement about the eradication of a country of different religion, isn't that a bit hypocritical since the palestinians hate israel just because they are jews, and they want to see israel demolished?? claim that they just want the land the israelis stole from them back, but the point is they aren't willing to share their region with anyone of a different religion. both countries are guilty, anyhow.

on a general side note, i hope you all know palestine was offered 98% of what they wanted by Barak a few years ago, but they rejected it. Shows you how ambitious they really are.


"the palestinians never miss an oppurtunity to miss an opportunity."

(ps- i'm sorry if you found some generalizations here, i'm aware that not ALL palestinians despise jews.)

Serpico.... Fine, sure your oppionion is your oppionion and your welcome to it. But my oppinion of your oppinion is that it was an increadably racist comment, that did nothing towards the debate, and perhaps sums up some of the attitudes of people which has led to these problems in the first place....... But thats just my oppinion

had hitler won WWII we wouldnt have had these problems now, Europe would be all one race and a nice big community of loving germans. Might have some other problems now but i would think we would have stamped them out.
PS i dont hate jews.
mooooooooo

I  just remembered when a French TV station had live stream on a street clash a few years back and it came in frame by frame, and the son and the dad were lieing on a ground in one frame, in another the dad was trying to cover his son, in the 3rd his son had been hit in the forehead by a "stray bullet" and the father in the chest by yet another "stray bullet"

cookie, be careful with your absolute statements, the Palestinians don't hate the Israelies JUST because they are a different religion...mainly they hate them because they are being oppressed by them.

I'm with you BFG, I think Serpico's statement was flat out racism...he may have been trying to be funny, but unlike Cow whose statement is clearly not to be taken as his literal view, Serpico doesn't make that evident.

The palestinians hated the israelis long before they ever "oppressed" them,  look at how they reacted when they first migrated in mass to the region before the partitioning.

it's bullshit to say the palestinians hate them mainly because they oppress them. If you took away israel and made the two live together in one state, chaos would ensue, and 10 bucks says it's because of cultural differences.

BFG: are you really sticking up for hippies or am I drunk again? All they do is bash republicans, which I think is pretty prejudice. They also bash the people who were fighting for our country, I mean these people are our heroes. WTF man?

Maybe my laziness to get glasses is at fualt here but I havent seen a single person hate on Military Personal. If they are in the service and are ordered somewhere they have to go, everybody knows that, we disagree with where they are being sent and what they are being ordered to do and for what reasons there ordered to do it but no we arent hating on the soldiers. Furthermore Hippies dont republican bash itd more be Conservative bashing. If a republican said that abortion was okay then hippies wouldnt still "bash" him because hes still called a republican, its more conservative stance which im afraid isnt prejudice, and with some of your posts I think you have no reoom to point THAT finger at others.

Conservative is a general term and conservatives generally support the war, they generally are pro-life, they generally are against gay rights, they generally are pro-business and capitalism.  To make criticisms of the general conservative ideology isn't prejudiced.

i think women should be presidents of countries, they dont like fighting and they have babies so they are always pro life, but we cant have blonde ones because they are stoopid

To make remarks agains't any group is prejudiced, no matter their political beliefs. BTW mexicans don't count.

the conservative ideology is maintaining as much of the status quo as possible while remaining productive, as opposed to liberal theory that society is constantly progressing and we need to evolve as much as possible along with it.

that is conservative ideology. it does not involve pro life, pro buisness, pro war, or any of that other hootnany. Sure, most of the republican party is conservative and sure most of them take that stance, but that just happens to be the political climate of the moment.

For instance, the democrats were the conservatives during the civil war... they wanted to maintain slavery. Since then, they've become generally liberal... it all depends on what base the party seeks to appeal to.

Cookie, it's wrong to say that the liberals were for maintaining slavery during the Civil War. The Democratic-Republicans were for maintaining slavery, and the Republicans were all for abolishment. However, during this period the Republicans were the liberal party and the Democrats were the more conservative, pro-business party. The two oddly switched roles a bit after the civil war, with the newly powerful Republicans fostering in "The Gilded Age" of pro-business policies and the Democrats switching to the more populist party. These are the roles the two have maintained ever since. Newly formed parties are almost always more liberal than the status quo, and the Democrats have not always been the party where liberals resided.

I didn't say liberals were for maintaining slavery during the civil war era... i said DEMOCRATS were, and that they were the conservatives at the time.

but thank you for the history lesson... even if you did just reiterate what i said :)

THE FACT  remains that we have not heard a thing from Bucc defending his stance on Israel v. Palestine. It seems that when he is put on the spot he cowers in the corner.

Yeah, oops. It appears I misread what you said. Heh heh. Oh well. So how about that bull-moose party?

 8)

No Tasty, gotta go with the Whigs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3001692.stm

Was looking at BBC News and found this link related to our discussion of this matter.  Sadly just one of the many incidents like this where Israel has killed civilians rather than terrorists...and notice the death toll...like always the Palestinian toll is much greater.

Ah, guess I have to answer this, since some people spammed the link at me.

Listen dumbass, first, tell me, what is my stance on Israel v Palestine that I am supposed to be defending?  Have I made a stance that needs defending?  I didn't think so.

If you are referring to my earlier post about this being asked and answered, try reading it again.  It points out that you seem to accuse anyone that doesn't agree of you with being a Bush supporter, then it goes on to say that the reason the US (note, that's the USA, not MY OPINION) backs them has been answered many times.  

I've been taking a little break from the forums because I figured if I was going to bother talking to a child that has no clue about history, it may as well be my daughter.  

So take your cowering in the corner bullshit and stuff it.  You again show that reading posts is a task just a little too advanced for you.

Bucc, I'm pretty sure this statement is what Zait wished you to expand on.

A few instances of late you have simply said 'this has been discussed before' rather than actually stating what you intend.  I speak for a few people I think when I say, like hell I'm searching the forums just to find what statement you might be referring to.

So I think Zait would like you to, even if it has been answered before, tell us why the USA supports Israel.

Although I certainly realize you have greater priorities nowadays (and rather enjoy that you have priorities that keep you away from the forums ;) )

If it is, then why would I be chicken shit about it?  There are plenty of well documented facts, along with plenty of other strong theories on why the government of the USA supports Israel.  How would my not posting them make me a chicken shit?  Unless I happen to agree with them, I have no stake in them, right?  So, I think you are wrong (again) Bondo.  Or Zaitsev is even more stupid then I think.


Zaitsev has asked this question in the past, and had it answered.  It's old already.  I don't think it's my duty to be his personal history tutor here, especially in a thread that I'm not juiced up about discussing (because it's an old topic, with more sides then sphere).  


He can want it all day long.  READ A BOOK OR TEN.


Maybe I'm just trying to keep her away from a pedophile that may want to start an internet relationship with her.

And you are starting to become Rapid now.  Let Zaitsev speak for himself, he's the one that posted the bullshit.  Oh, that's right, as long as it's one of your little boys, it's ok, I forgot about that.

Tut Tut Bucc, so much for being Mr. Proper Word Use.

Paedophilia refers to sexual attraction to PREpubescent girls.  I on the other hand like adolescent girls who are not prepubescent.  Thus I wouldn't be a paedophile.

Rapid speaks for other people?  I didn't know that.  What I do know is I check the forum more often than Zait and in the interest in speeding the process up decided to help out.  As you state it is clear that the US supports Israel and its reasons aren't vague, but I think the real question is why the US supports Israel despite all the hypocricy that Israel presents.  It isn't a factual question like you make everything Bucc, it is a theoretic question.

Anyway, I'll ignore your unneccesary insults.

1) you didn't ignore them.

2) you felt it necessary to start the shit.

3) I used it correctly, or did you overlook what I wrote in the past about your trend?  Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean I didn't use the term right.

Yay, once again using the "what I wrote in the past" line, as if I had nothing to do but remember everything and everything Bucc has ever posted.

what part of the 'I don't care about this argument and don't want to be your history tutor' didn't you understand?  

Ok, so that's not accurate, but "I don't think it's my duty to be his personal history tutor here, especially in a thread that I'm not juiced up about discussing (because it's an old topic, with more sides then sphere)." shouldn't be that fucking hard for you to get that out of.

Yay, once again Bondo showing that he can't read.

Its funny bucc, that when you had the knowledge and resources to back up your arguments such as pre-war arguments stating Iraqi attrocities you chose then to be my "tutor" however now that a subject where you have less evidence to back your reasoning you chose not to be my tutor. Show me, any of your previous posts that show you backing up your stance on Israel which, by all indications, is parallel to that of our government....And until you show me, Bondo, and others involved in this topic that you have reasoning behind your stance, keep from aimlessly cussing me out.

Zaitsev, why don't you simply find the information yourself? That's what Bucc wants you to do, obviously. Besides, wouldn't you rather do research yourself than listen to somebody's opinion, who might toss in some incorrect facts to back that opinion?
Now, if you want, I can give you my view on things (again).
I've already stated why the U.S. backs Israel, you can look back in the thread for that. Probably around page 3.
Now, as for Israel bulldozing houses and killing civilians and such, while it may seem cruel, it's a smart move. While the average idiot watching Fox sees this as Israel doing this out of hate and creating more terrorism, they're wrong. Israel has captured and interrogated 7 attempted suicide bombers in the past few years. They were questioned, and all asked what would have dissuaded them from carrying out a suicide bombing. They all had similar answers. If the bombers knew their families would be tortured or killed after they committed the bombing, they would not have tried to carry out the attack. Makes sense to me. So, by Israel going after the family members of suicide bombers, Hamas political leaders, etc., they're actually countering terrorism, not creating it. They are scaring off would-be suicide bombers by making them fear for their family's lives. A bit cruel, but it works. I'm sure bombing figures would be dramatically higher if Israel didn't do this.
Now, I'm not saying what Israel's doing is morally right, but it's no worse than what the suicide bombers do. Anyways, hope that cleared up some stuff for you.

I see your reading skills haven't improved either.  It has nothing to do with lack of evidence, it has everything to do with this being an old, tired argument that I'm not interested in debating.  I have the knowledge and the resources to tell you exactly why the USA's government backs Israel's right to be a nation and turns a blind eye to some things it does.  But what would that prove to you?  That I can read and retain history?  


OK FUCKTARD, let's see if you can answer this question, that I asked before.  WHAT IS MY STANCE ON ISREAL?  WHERE DID I MAKE ONE?  Oh, that's right, I haven't you dumbass.  But you can't read.  You are making assumptions that I have a stance that is different from yours.  But all they are is assumptions, since I haven't said one way or another (and I haven't bothered to read your stance, since I'm not taking part in this debate).  You say "by all indications" that my attitude "parallels" that of the USA government, but where in the hell have you gotten those indications from?  Fuck, you call me a Bush supporter, which shows how little you can actually fucking read and retain.

I find it fucking insane how you talk about my cussing while you insult me with "cower in corner" comments in a thread I'm not even involved in.  Did your mother do too many drugs while you were a fetus or what?  Because you seem to suffer from some serious disfunction.

Bondo, I see that you were wrong, and he has confused USA STANCE with my opinion.

Mellow, the only problem is that he wants to draw me into this argument, not learn about the USA's stance on it.  I doubt he'd ever really learn it anyway.

My question, the one posed in the topic, was directed towards you bucc. Not to Mellow and not to many others who agree with our current stance. Thus when you say that my question has been answered many times, your right it has but Im asking you.  Furthermore from this response I can extract 2 facts. The first is you do not mindlessly support bussh and the second is that from the gist of your response it gives a feeling that there are perfectly good reasoning for our stance and thus you agree with it. So now, perhaps i WAS wrong. Do you support the United States stance on Israel or not? I apologize for assuming things should I be wrong. I fail however to see how me misinterpreting skills realates to my reading skills not improving. Obviously I can read, and you seem to be edgeing out of response by ASKING for this to be locked by your flamethrowing. I may be a kid, but Im not the one being immatue. I walked past a yellow cab today and it made me think of you and your vulgar voabulary use....TO BELITTLE IS TO BE LITTLE

So you feel it is appropriate to sink to the level of the terrorists to stop them?  Or in other words fight terrorism with terrorism?  You can't eliminate terrorism by creating more.

Anyway, Zait was not asking for historical information, he was asking for Bucc's opinion/stance, that isn't something he can look up in a book unless Bucc has published things I'm not aware of.

Oh, and funny you should say any idiot watching Fox...Fox is a extreme right-wing news organization and is not likely to show Israel in a negative light.

Bucc, it turns out I was right, that was the statement Zait wanted you to expand on.  Just not specifically in the capacity it was originally stated.

Um, no, it wasn't.  It was directed at Bush supporters.  Since I have openly stated that I hate Bush and don't support him, I must deduct it wasn't directed at me.

You did mention my name saying that I wouldn't answer you, which I did, and I did it in a very short way without insults.  Asshole.

I also let drop the fact that you claimed you weren't addressed in the tax cut thread.  It was covered over and over, just because it doesn't have your name on it, doesn't mean it wasn't covered.  Please go back and read it.


Wow, you can extract something I've said often and directly, then tell me my response says I agree with it.  Wow.  No wonder you get so much of your history wrong, you can't fucking read worth a shit.  What I've said in the past is that there are perfectly OBVIOUS reasons.  How is that supporting anything or not?


No perhaps about it.


I support some of the stances and am opposed to some others.  

Like I said, there are many sides to the whole Israel picture, it's nowhere near black and white and there is so much going on.

I really like what Jimmy Carter did over there, both as President and since.  

But, like I said, this isn't a topic I feel like debating.  I have no strong feelings on it.  I'm not a huge supporter or detractor of Israel or our policy towards them.  I do know that comparing them to Iraq is stupid, because of some very large differences (and religion is not one of them, nor is oil).  


No Zaitsev, you started the flame-throwing with the bullshit about "cowering in a corner" when I hadn't even opened this thread up to read it.  So don't even try to pull that kind of crap out of your ass.  You asked for this.

As for your being able to read being obvious, that is not the case.  When I say things directly you still get them wrong.  It's not like I was explaining the principles of modern quantum physics or the latest theories of James Martin on how computer chip design and logic circuits will be completely alien once we start letting the computers design the chips and take humans out of the equation.  No.  What happened is you want me to try to defend the USA's policy towards Israel, and are now trying to pull the old school yard routine out to "dare" me into it.  The USA's policy has been pretty simple and obvious.  Find someone that gives a damn to argue it, because I don't give a damn about it really.  The Israel topic ranks up just higher then women's figure skating in my book.


ohh, so impressive.  Problem is, you didn't take that and apply it to yourself.  Notice you are the one that started this.  Oh, but since you didn't use profanity I guess that makes it better.  Bullshit.  Grow up.  You called me a coward, you tried to bait me into defending the USA's policy, and you keep calling me a Bush supporter (for months and months, and you wonder why I say you can't read).  So, think about that, oh, sorry, forgot that you don't think for yourself.  Tell mommy that and have her explain it all to you.


Which means it wasn't right.  You never stop amazing me with that bullshit though.  How you can't be wrong, even when you obviously are.  

Uhh...I said that it was the comment he was talking about...and it was the comment he was talking about.  How is that wrong?  "You never stop amazing me with that bullshit though.  How you can't be wrong, even when you obviously are."  Odd how that discribes the one who wrote it most of all.

Bondo, getting a tiny bit right, and the rest wrong, when the rest was the important part, still equals wrong you fucking moron.  This isn't "partial credit for showing your work" and even if it was, you are still fucking wrong.  How stupid are you?

You, Bondo, tried to correct me.  You were wrong.  He was looking for my opinions, and had made assumptions about them.  Just like I was saying.  Asshole.

You see I would have to disagree with your  comment then I started the flamethrowing. While "cowering in the corner" could logically be true seeing as this topic was in depth for quite sometime before you gave a logical response. Your first response didnt answer anything

"And your question about whey the USA supports Isreal has been answered more then once. "
<>It doesnt state who answered it, or where they answered it or any of the good arguments, which would be needed to be classified as a good point, which it wasnt. Such a Bushy answer could come from Ari Fletcher and you. From this answer we learn NOTHING. Am I to search everyones post ever made? It could be slightly narrowed if you said WHO actually has defeneded it well but you didnt.

"No Zaitsev, you started the flame-throwing with the bullshit about "cowering in a corner" when I hadn't even opened this thread up to read it.? So don't even try to pull that kind of crap out of your ass.? You asked for this."
<>I would have to say no your wrong. You obviously opened this thread up before I called you a covered because I do see your post THIRD OVERALL while I dont post another thing until THE SECOND PAGE.

<>Furthormore If I ever saw my name in a topic's opening post such as your name was in mines, I dont care the context I would carry on in thatpost with vigor. So yes, I inteded it to be directed to you.

<>Im taking a month long siesta to Conneticuit, I hope no new importent topics pop up and Bondo continues to hold Bucc in check.

Funny thing, I've not been hostile towards Bucc this whole thread yet have been getting cussed up a tree by Bucc.  Way to show your maturity Bucc.

Calling you a dumbass is also logical, and true, but it's also still insulting.  And your comment was insulting.


First, I said it like I meant it, it is an old topic that has been covered.  

Second, I don't care how you do your homework, you looking up information is YOUR responsibility, not mine.  You can go through peoples posts, or you can use the search function, or you can take a history class.  It's not a secret or complicated.  Why the USA has treated Israel as it has is not a hard thing to see.

Third, I never said anyone defended it.  Could you fucking try to actually read?  The WHY THE USA SUPPORTS THEM question has been answered.  That's a far cry from defending anything.  I can tell you why the Death Penalty is still used, but that doesn't mean I'm defending it (since I'm against it).  Time for you to learn how to read little boy.


Yes, I opened it, saw it was dumb, posted as much, and never looked back at it till I was spammed the post.  I think I've said as much already.  It was a dumb thread, which is why I gave you the first post.  I wouldn't know when you responded, since I didn't look at this thread again until I came to answer your bullshit.

My name may have been there, but you were looking for 1) Bush supporters and 2) someone to defend the USA's policy.  I've already said, that's not me.  Maybe you'll get that the third time around.  Saying my name in your post doesn't mean all of a sudden I'm all geeked about talking about Israel.  You could just as easily call me out and want me defend the zoning laws for restaurants.  I just don't care.  You have it in your mind that you know my opinion, or that I even have a strong one on this topic.  It's just not one I care that much about.  Try to get that idea into that pea sized cranium of yours.


You are taking a month long nap?

Bondo couldn't hold my 8 week old in check.

Oh, and Bondo, you chose to jump in, defend the little asshole, get things wrong, and be your normal ignorant self.  And use of profanity does not show maturity one way or another.  Like I've tried to explain to you and Loud before, you go ahead and insult your ways, and I'll choose mine.  You're comments like "                                                                        Yay, once again using the "what I wrote in the past" line, as if I had nothing to do but remember everything and everything Bucc has ever posted." aren't hostile at all, are they?  Bullshit.  

By the way, anyone hear me say that those comments were by me?  Doh, there goes another stupid assumption by the village idiots.

WOW that gentlemen is absolutly amazing. Unbelieveable. This thread has been up for a while.. and although it had a quiet bit in the middle we had some damn good conversations about the israeli issue earlier on...

And then lo and behold what happens?
Mysteriously the tone of the whole thread drops a teeny bit... suddendly someone is throwing random bullshit and insulting the guys on the forum.. OF couse everyone else is a bunch of analy retentive, small minded, dumb, anti american, pile of shit, thickass ejits....

Now who could that possibly be?

Couldn't we just easy of the insults just a tad? would be nice to discuss peoples different oppinions without someone rushing around telling everyone how 'fucking stupid' they are?

What happened is someone chose to insult me, and I got spammed with links to the thread.  Or did you miss that part in your reading here?


That would be Zaitsev (with Bondo adding to the bullshit, since he wanted to jump in to the rescue again).  Since my insults were not random at all, but directed right at the source.


You know, since none of this has a bit to do with anything I talk about, you sure do sound like a dumbass bringing it up.


Who's opinion on Israel have I insulted?  Show me BFG!  Nobody's.  Show me BFG, come on.  Let's see it.  

Water off a duck's back Bucc. Screw their insults you dont have to respond to them. Although this conversation has turned less about Israel and more about who said what and who insulted whom when. I find it childish that both parties countinue this. I think Bondo and Zait should relize Bucc's response to their "actual questions about his stance on Israel" I also think Bucc should not fly off the handle and resort to cuss words or insults even if he is insulted.

Cossack, that surprises me, since you were one of the people that told me about this thread and to go do something about it.

     Incongrous behavior, and a slight drinking problem. Could the two be related? Could be.

i think the jews should calm down

I say we let the Middle East solve their own damn problems. If Israel is settling on Palestinian land, or Palestine is "pushing Israel into the sea": I don't really care. Perhaps this is an issue that the UN could attempt to deal with (not saying they can do any better to solve it) but I say its high time the US focused its money and time elsewhere.

Well I guess you got me there. There are two faces to me. Anyhow its on the thread "Treason" that I was talking about. This thread you were already bitching at 'em. Even if I did say go do something about it I will stand by my current stance, even if I'm a hypocrite for doing it.

Ah, another thread I haven't even ventured into.  At this point, I think I'll stay out of it.  At least until BFG gives me an answer.

I for one have had enough bitching so I will get back onto topic, my rant on Israel and how Sharon is the ironic reincarnation of Hitler gone Bahmitzvah.

Let the Isrealis do what they want to the Palestinians but dont drag me down with them. That is my opinion in short, now here it is in detailed and laid out.

What the Isrealis are doing is immoral, the bulldozing of civilian homes to punish the act of one man. The shooting of school children, and the Jenin Massacre. Whats more so is that the Palestinian based purely on ethnicity has been treated as a second class citizen very much like the apartheid did with ethnic Zulus and Bantus. Why are the Palestinians in revolt? It is because they are oppressed. They are treated like trash and have no opportunity to advance in Israeli sociotey. I would also like to be a critic of these new "Palestinian Suicide bombing tactics." The Isrealis did the same thing the Palestinians are doing during the "Isreali War of Independece." It was more like the seizure of a nation by a bunch of foreign born extremists.

 Moreso is the fact that the US is fast becoming the bitch of Israel. We fund it, we give it military equipment, we look the other way when IDF men machine gun school children. We praise them. Let the truth be known that Paul Wolfowitz the Deputy Secretary of Defence of the DEFENCE DEPARTMENT, THE GUYS IN THE PENTAGON, THE SECOND HAND MAN TO DONALD RUMSFELD HAS DUAL CITIZENSHIP! He is also an Israeli citizen and has served in the IDF. What the hell an ex-officer of a foreign military doing in charge of our military? You wouldnt trust Alexander Lebed (commander of Soviet Forces in Afghanistan during the 80s) as Deputy Secretary of Defence would you? Oh I almost forgot, Wolfowitz has the ability to call Tribunals. Some god damned Isreali can go call a native born American, go to his house and call him a terrorist and make him disappear with no reason specified. That is insane.

In combination with Military Tribunals is a law being set before Congress. This law makes it illegal to critisize Israel! This is absolutly poposturous. Even if you are for Israel you sould be against this bill. Clearly its a blatant violation of freedom of speech. It is already illegal to boycott Israel, now it may soon be that it is illegal to talk disfavorably of the country. You can boycott the US government, but you cant boycott Sharon and his band of dogmatic chronies.

These are a few reasons why I so hate the bastard of the Middle East. I do not want to support murder and injustice, and the Hamas and Hezbollah have my emotional praise when they attack IDF installations. I see them not as terrorist groups but freedom fighters when they target the IDF.

Ok firstly Bucc, Um im not quite sure what im supposed to be replying on.. um im guessing its your collection of quotes from one of my posts...Perhaps we can clarify stuff. Im not quite clear about your stance on the topic. Im pretty aware that your Anti bush. And you support the actions of israel?

Fine i look like a dumbass for saying somthing. This is exactly what im talking about. I missed the bit of the post when everything blew up, but people calling each other dumshits or dumbass or whatever dosn't really help. thats all.

Cossak I think what you said has some real truth to it. Ive been very reluctant to make the comparisno between israel and palestine now, and the nazi's and jews in wwII... But i have made it before, and i think your absolutly right.

Of course at the same time I don't support the bombing of civilians by hamas and hizbolah and other groups. But then again they are killing civilians just like the israeli's are. So i say again, which is worse? A democratic country with a large and powerfull army? or a group of freedom fighters struggling against occupation and oppression?

That's just it BFG.  I haven't made a stance.  Zaitsev decided to assume I supported the status quo and was calling me out to defend it.  I haven't actually jumped into the whole topic, for the reasons I've given.


Ah, and that's the important thing.  You see the danger of posting an opinion when you haven't read carefully / paid attention / etc.  

What happened here (with me) is Zaitsev decided to try to bait me into defending a position that I never made.  Bondo jumped in (as he likes to do) to add more fuel to the fire.  

I think you let an impression of me from another thread make you jump to the conclusion that I was shitting on someone's opinions here.  Jumping to conclusions and assumptions are bad.  Leave it for the idiots.