*DAMN R6 Forum

Hi guys because it seems we have many controversial debates about the Threat Indicator I am going to start this poll. Furthers I got an interesting mail about this topic from Virus Ross:

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...Reasons for Ti OFF:

Much easier to find the enemy with Ti on. Unable to do more tactics
(e.g. Flanking the enemy or plan ambushes).

I think with the Ti off it gives each team more difficulty in working
out Tactics and players have to be more skilled and more forward
thinking when trying to find an enemy and I think in the end this makes
a game more enjoyable.

Hunting down your prey with the Ti is just just to easy. All you do is
walk the towards the yellow bar and this takes the fun out of the hunt
(sorry that sounded more like I was hunting deer).

Also with the Ti on it gives less experienced players and clans the
advantage compared to a Clan that works as a team and has had many
battles.

...

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His second mail:

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> The reason why we decided to put TI on was to stop camping.

Thanks for the feedback.

Your right camping is a problem but the Ti doesn't stop camping all it
dose is let you know where the enemy is and this still lets the campers
camp.

With the Ti off campers have a much better chance your right. But if a
clan camps then they make a reputation for camping and other clans will
become aware of that and will not play then.

There is no way to stop camping on a hole but I think with the Ti off
there would be more enjoyable games.

I will leave it to you and the community to decide.

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Alright now it's your turn to leave your opinions and vote.

Thanks,

Mauti

My vote goes to .....drums...... Threat indicator OFF! .....applause....crowd goes wild....

I totally agree with Ross on this matter. It's almost like turning on "show enemies" in RS during cb's.
Besides, there are various ways to locate your enemies without Ti on:
- grab the SA hbs, you get 4 of them!
- watch your map! When enemy is close to you or a teammate he will show up on your map, it's THAT easy ;)

Later all!
Dutchman / ViRuS

PS Mauti, can't find any button to vote. Is it my browser or my noobness?

- Must be your noobness hehe - Mauti

Ty Mauti.

Also I was able to vote without logging in (using Safari).

Edit: Just found somthing out (its oftopic but) when trying to take a screenshot in GhR on my Mac (iMac 700Mhz G4 512RAM 10.2.3) it crashes. This maybe a problem in Clan Battles.

Also I can login with Safari now  :)

No more mr. noob-guy.... ;)

My vote has been placed

if it means anything to you. it is unheard of in PC games for threat indicator to be on. my vote is off. all the time.

I say no. The TI is just there to help people learn to play the game. If you are "l33t" at it then don't use it. What would be better is if both teams agreed to using it, then maybe it could be on. But if one team didn't agree then no.

Mauti what about the random inserts??

Played a few games with random inserts and the inserts can be too damn close.

Well all PC ladders I have looked at allow it and for myself haven't experienced any problems with them. So I think we will start with it and after 1 month or when some cbs were played  we can make a revision how the rules worked and what to improve.

Bye,

Mauti

If you turn threat indicator clan battles will take hours because of camping. It's so easy to find the crner off a map, lay down, and just camp. Threat indicator doesnt tell you anything more then which direction to walk in. In alot of cases you can walk into a trap. Its not cheap and SHOULD be left on.

1. Please explain to me how you are going to ambush/flank the other team when you don't know where they are?
2. All noobs do is walk towards the yellow bar thinking, "oh this is easy, I'll see him and then easily pick him off."  Most players will run w/ the bar on the left or right to position for a flank.
3. Sure, with Ti off it gives the less experienced players a better chance of seeing you before you see them as they have been sitting in one spot for 30 min and you are tired of waiting.

I don't know about you, but running around a large map having no idea where the enemy is, is not what I would call a fun time.  I don't know why you people do this, first it was 3rd person in Rogue Spear because it was too "cheap" and it allowed "less experienced players" to have more of a chance.  If after one month with the Ti on people decide to ban it from clan wars then I feel it's only fair we get rid of the heart beat sensor in Rogue Spear as well.  

Don't we want to make this video game as real as possible?

One of your team could engage the enemy and you could then flank or ambush them by using you team mate as a decoy or something along those lines. I like to think of it as tactics.


Yea but the enemy can see you on there Ti flanking them and campers have a rough idea of where you are. Making there camping easier.


This kind of covered that:

"With the Ti off campers have a much better chance your right. But if a
clan camps then they make a reputation for camping and other clans will
become aware of that and will not play then."



Heart beat sensor are real dude (as far as i know). Also if you can't find the guys in 10 min then get some practice.


Well yea I do want it to be a real as possible. If you want something thats not real then go play Unreal.

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rgr

Edited to make a single post.-Hazard

I could point out some things about your comments but I don't feel like it.  There is no reason for the Ti to be shut off.  This kind of crap from this community is now starting to tick me off.  If the game's not real enough then start banning things to make the gameplay even more realistic.

Learn to use the Ti, the gameplay is faster and more exciting.  

Guys, I think you getting a little worked up over this issue, when it's just one little issue.

Look at the problem you are trying to solve with the TI.  

First, to stop camping.  Will this stop camping?  Not at all.  It will tell you generally which direction the person is camping in.  But like anything else, the persone that rushes towards the camp will usually get kileed, TI or no TI, unless they are just that much better then the camper.

Second, to make the games go faster.  To a point, this is true.  It kinda sucks to circle around a big map with hills, the last two guys could go for an hour without finding each other.  But if they are camping, nothing changes, the games still go slow.

Ok, there's one minor point for having TI ON

Now the flip side.

First, TI isn't realistic.  This is true.  Neither are respawns.  If the goal is to be realistic, then TI should be off.

Second, TI is cheap like HBS.  Not true at all.  TI tells you a 90 degree arc of where they are, at best.  Then a red dot when they are close.  That is not even close to what HBS gave you in other games.  Also, with the right tactics, TI can be useless.

For those that say you can't use tactics like flanking when you don't have TI, then you haven't used your map enough.  When your teammates hear or see them, they show up on the map.  So you can get an idea.  Plus even without TI the red arc works for enemy fire.

So there you have it.  An ok reason for it, and an ok reason against it.  There's nothing magical about it either way, so everyone should take a deep breath.  Let all the GhR clan leaders or players vote on it or something.  But it is smiply not something to get worked up about.

As for me.  I don't like it myself.  I like to sneak up behind people and shoot them.  I like the way the game handles HBS with TI off.  You can hear them if they are moving and close (they show up on the map).  And I also like how you can use the MP5SD and sensors, but to get the sensors, you have to use a shitty little gun for most maps.

Cough... I was about to go off and call you a noob, but decided to do it after I voted. Well... ehrmm.. I accidentally did the same thing... so if you could uh... change my vote to no.. that'd be nice.

Alright - Here is my decision about this topic: we will go with the current rules(TI On) and on 15th february we will ask for your experiences with the current rules and TI and then we'll make the final decision.

Regards,

Mauti
ps: Viper you don't have always to bring up your realism paranoia. If you read through the posts to turn it off would have nothing to do with realism in most opinions it just would give a team more possiblities(sideeffect also campers) but on the other side you still would see from where shots are fired. Well read through the posts...

     "TI Taste Test number 1"

     Yesterday, I hosted games for at least two hours, maybe three (it's so hard to keep track of time when you're gaming.  ;D ) using the Threat Indicator, as per BL rules. Let it be known that virtually everyone who came into my host complained about the use of the TI. I explained why it was on, and they relented.

     We mostly played Siege on my host, which does not completely represent the BL-mandated experience of Last Man Standing (LMS). However, there are certain points that should be noted. One big one is that the defenders had a massive advantage. To state it in LMS terms, anyone who has concealed themselves in a good sniper spot has large advantages. That same person, with the TI on, has nearly insurmountable advantages. You see, it is possible to use the TI to get a nearly exact picture of where an enemy is (although not the enemy's distance). So the sniper merely has to lie in wait, never needing to worry about their flanks or rear, until the hapless enemy shows themselves. I have been suspicious of that since the TI debate began, and personal testing confirmed that that is exactly what happens. Even if the enemy sees the sniper before they die, they do not have time to get off an accurate shot.
     Additionally, if one team wants to set up a secure zone (which is the norm in Siege, but does happen sometimes in LMS), they become at least twice as effective with the TI on than with it off. This is because the defending team does not have to concern themselves with flanking maneuvers or enemies sneaking up on them. They only have to face the TI sector and watch steadily, without ever having to break off and look around.

     On another host (maybe Buccaneer's? I can't recall) later that evening, we played full BL rules--LMS, no respawns, TI on, ten minutes. Yes, the games were fast, but they were hardly fair. Whichever team started off in the better spot won almost without contest. For instance: one game, we played in Ghost Town. My team started on the central hill, and the other team started in the north arm of the map. Snipers on the hill can cover the exits from the north arm, and because of the TI, we knew instantly upon starting what direction we had to watch. So the snipers among us took our spots and the unopposed slaughter began. My team may have lost one man, to their 10 or 11 (it was a big game). Without the TI, the other team may have been able to sneak some men out of the kill zone and flank us. But with it on, our outriding assault teams were easily able to box the enemies in and keep them from escaping.
     We played another game of full BL rules in Stronghold, with virtually identical results. To those of you who say that the TI will combat camping, I laugh in your face. My team camped like Boy Scouts, and decimated the opposition for the reasons mentioned previously and above.

Thnx for taking the time to post that Mr. Lothario.

And it was well explained.

Ross / ViRuS

I say turn it off, because:

1. it gives away the position way to easily

2. it eliminates snipers

3. it ruins clan's tatics which they planned out

4. you cant flank, like stated by others

5. if you sneak up on a person, they automaticlly know you are there, it gives the guy a spidey sense!

6. it would be just like banning jammers in RS, and letting anyone find you

just my thoughts....

Thanks for your posts some inputs and experiences of the guys that want it on are highly appreciated. (I guess we can decide this earlier than 15february)

Bye,

Mauti

     This is blatantly not true. If anything, the TI helps snipers. It helps them far too much, actually, which is just as bad as making them useless.

If the TI was NOT reliable, then it might be alright to have it on. For example, if it showed a red dot when no one was near you, and the yellow bars lead no where. Although this may be harsh to people who use the TI and depend on it to kill, it would nice to freak them out, sorta like having pucks in RS.

     Oh, yeah, I agree. If there were some counter to the TI, I wouldn't mind it. In that case, it would be a balanced thing. But as it is, it's basically implying that special forces recon troops have some spoooooky sixth sense about where every enemy in the battle is.

As long as we're talking BL rules, why don't you just eliminate camping.  Yup. . .if you camp in a BL clanbattle, it doesn't count.  Do it often enough and you could be penalized.  Sound reasonable?

Because even though their are points against it, the TI is extremely useful to GhR gameplay.  To use Loth's example of Siege:

Defense in most maps is incalcuably boring.  Do you really like sitting there for long periods of time, turning around and around, checking your flanks and your rear, and seeing nothing for minutes at a time?  Does it excite your pulse, give you a rush?  Maybe for a minute. . .but then either you screw up and die, or time runs out, or you finally fire your one or two shots of the game.

In big maps, the TI helps you find people.  This is rather important, seeing as people can be hard to find.  Remember that both sides have it.  Even though the camper can get an idea where the enemy is approaching from, the enemy also has an idea of where the camper is.  The game has rockets and such for a reason. . .plus you can easily flank a camper.  If the camper has people coming from both sides, and continually has to turn around, he's probably not going to be able to pick off both of them.  Problem solved.

Furthermore, I'll argue your issue of realism.  In the field, the military is likely to have some kind of support that would give an idea of where the enemy is.  This could be satellite imagery, field scouts, drone aircraft.  All sorts of data can be updated to the minute.

It's not a 6th sense, it's real life.  And, it's more fun.  

I'm not actively playing in the BL, so this isn't a huge issue to me.  But do you all really enjoy the long drawn out search and destroy games that are 90% searching?  And how fun is it to die without ever seeing who shot you?  Or knowing where the bullet came from?

 TI should be on.

     In theory, I agree with you, loud. But I've played with the TI. It inevitably leads to a lopsided slaughter. It doesn't balance out the game, it doesn't make it harder to camp, it just enables the side who started in the better place to win the game in a couple of minutes.

Loudnotes, two small issues with your post.

1) how could you prove that a team was camping?  That may have been sarcastic and I may be too drunk to notice.  But if it wasn't, I haev no  ideal how to go about proving it.  Or disproving it of accused wrongly.

2) your point about it being real like scouts, aricraft, etc is all good, except that you should have to look to a device to get that information.  Like the map.  Anything that would be realtime like that would require you to look at it, not just see it while you are zoomed in on another target.

I'm in pretty close agreement with Loth, my only othe point being clans can develop tactics to help against snipers, but not against aweful starts like he mentioned.  But Mauti's plan is a strong one.  Let people CB for a while with it then come back with their opinions.  

After playing the game with the TI on and the TI off, I myself am now aiming towards the TI off.  I feel like I can assualt better with the TI off when the enemy has no idea where I am shooting from.  I don't know, both ways the game still has a fast paced feel, of course I haven't tried playing with the Ti off on some of the HUGE maps.

Obviously the Ti has a few pro's and con's, but why has the PC world set the Ti as something to be left on for a clan battle?

Don't worry what the PC world did. You didn't listen to them when it came to HBS and 3rd person (even though you should have lol).

The TI would be perfectly fine if there was no red dot in the middle and it just showed the starting direction.  No drone/aircraft/Green Beret 6th sense will indicate precisely when an enemy gets close to them. If one man flanks silently his efforts are wasted by a yellow bar indicating his presence. There should be benefits for staying out of LOS but TI negates these. Also if a team stops a flanker it immediatly disappears. There would be no way of knowing that there wasn't more guys over there but the yellow bar would disappears giving it away.

There are other ways to learn these things. First of all if shots are fired in a certain direction, if would call that a pretty obvious THREAT INDICATION!!!

The TI encourages a gung-ho style with disregard for self preservation. A team that plays stealthily and with coordination should be rewarded not given a disadvantage.

One other point, I could understand the TI being on if you had to look at another screen to get it but as it is now its just taking away from the GGs.

Well just my 2?.

Well I just CB'd DEA.

These rules need changing. ASAP I will not CB again until they are changed.

This is a rushing game now, it encourages rambo-ing around alone.

Maybe 2 vs 2 was the problem.

Ti plays a big role when it's off.  I caught a team off guard when  they were attacking full force straigh ahead of them while I went around and flanked them ending the game.  If the Ti was on I would have wasted 10 minutes of creeping along by some guy looking at a yellow bar indicating "enemy right."

As you can read it in the BL news the BL rules have been changed to TI OFF for all GR cbs.

Mauti