*DAMN R6 Forum

30-40 Chechen rebels have sized a moscow theatre and are holding up to 1000 (yes one thousand) people hostage! The rebels have lots of guns and explosives, it doesn't look good...  

Does this remind anyone else of a classic RS level?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2354753.stm

Maybe this will remind us Americans of how small our sniper problem really is. The world is still a very dangerous place, we've had it pretty easy in America for a long time and I'm very thankful for that, but I fear that America is about to become a very dangerous place....


*oops, didn't realize this was already posted. sigh....*

Now if only half those 1000 peopole had hand guns.  Think how it would be different.

Seriously, it sounds pretty freaky.  The only demand I head was that they want an end to the war.  That seems a little iffy to me.  

I also read that they let over 100 women and children go so far.

*Also posted in the other thread*

20 or so Chechens have the Opera house partially mined and they are all armed with auto rifles. The FSB (I think that is what they call themselves now...anyway, ex KGB) has sent in their 'Alpha' squads, much like the FBI inderdiction teams, but much more para-military.

Unfortunately, $20 says that at least 20 friendlies are killed, or that the Moscow government caves in and gives into the terms demanded.

Yeah, this is serious shit and Russia has far more problems than we do. These same Chechen rebels types were blowing up apartment buildings in Moscow in 1999 and were strong enough to defeat the Russian army in the Chechen separtist war of 1996. These people are hardcore motherfuckers and it wouldn't surprise me if they commit suicide and take everyone with them. For those of you Conspiracy theorists wondering, yes they come from an Islamic background.

Buccaneer, even if all 1000 of those people had handguns, i highly doubt that they would bring them to an opera...



 :D :D :D :DColin----Cuo
*Retired*

The Sniper has been caught and you cant relate him to 1000 people held up. TRUE I sympathize with the citizens of Isreal and Russia however they now have a democratic process and purhaps need to open up serious talked with Chechnia and Palestine otherwise things like this will become all too common.

I think this post would not be complete without my response to it. The Chechens are miscrients, terrorists, and as sin said,"hardcore mutha fukas."  I hope they are killed. My Cousin was killed in the 1996 war. Moscow will not "cave" in. Putin will not give in to the demand of these barbarians. Not to mention the War is not being fought by Chechens much anymore. Russians have killed most of the Rebels off while Pakistani and other Muslims are taking the fight wich is why we are thinking of attacking the Pankasi gorge in Georgia. For those of you who dont know, Georgia gives asylum to Chechen guerillas in the Pankasi gorge, where they inflitrate into Ossetia, Chechnya, and Dagestan (Russian provinces). The Russian Spetznaz is very well trained and are being sent their, however the task ahead of them is very daunting. This will be much more tougher than the Iranian hostage crisis. The theater is mined and they claim to have 2 support beams wrapped in dynomite. They will blow the whole theater up if they hear the Russians come in or make a sound. It is very hard and I am afraid they will fail. I think the US would too if this situation happened to you people.
*Note: I am angry right now, I heard about the incident 5 minutes ago from my uncle in Moscow.

just to make it easier for everybody, i locked the other thread on the same topic.  if you want to reference any of the posts in that thread here's the link
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=2711 (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=2711)

Cossack, I don't think this would matter if it were in Russia or the USA.  It's a shitty hard nut to crack.  No government wants to cave, especially now.  Both countries have very good spec ops, trained for this sort of thing.  Probably the thrid and fourth best in the world (have to give the Isrealies the tops in hostage rescue, but they also get the most practice and the Government will not ever give in.  SAS is reportable the second best at this. which makes sense with all the experience they've had too).

I actually hope that these "rebels" are taken alive.  Quick death and martyrdom are too good for them.

There are two things I hate in this world. Racism and Chechens. Bucc I completley agree with your statement. This is an extreamly hardnut to crack. I have no idea how they will do it personally. These chechens that took the opera I hate, I despise them for doing this to my country and my hometown. You do have to hand it to them, they are very samrt and this is a very good plan. Now lets hope that alpha and spetsnaz can make a better plan.

Hating Checnians is Racism and stereotyping. I am sure there are chechnians just like you. You think this is bad you must read the truth on what happens during the Russian round ups of Chechnians It is pointless for Russia to blatantly attack Chechnia there must be peace talks

Ahem, I believe he was parodying Goldmember.

I wasn't aware that Checnians were their own race either (They are not, btw).  Also, there was no stereotyping there.  To stereotype, he'd have to have said somthing ABOUT them, not that he hated them.  If he said that everyone named Zaitsev was an ignorant boob, that would be stereotyping.  If he just said he hated Zaitsev, that's not.  He has to paint the picture in order to sterotype.

I think the word you were looking for was biggotry.  Stereotyping just doesn't apply.  

Zaitsev, you are ignorant. Your comments about letting Chechnya go is like us freely giving up Alaska or some other state if they didn't want to be part of the Union or us letting the South go during the civil war. Chechnya is a resource rich region that Russia desperately needs to flex its power throughout the Caucasus region in central Asia.

What you fail to realize is that peace talks with the Chechen rebels by Russia is like the United States trying to have peace talks with Al-Qaeda...and I hope you aren't stupid enough not to understand what that means. Chechens are responsible for some real dirty stuff in Moscow, and if you think you are scared of the D.C. sniper, in 1999, residents of Moscow were afraid that their apartment building was going to get blown up by these rebels who are well armed, trained, and equiped to fight their battles.

For the most part, Chechens and Russians are mortal enemies. They hate each other with a passion and no "peace talks" will ever end the conflict. the only way to end it is for the Russian Army to go in there once and for all and eliminate the threat - which is not an easy thing to do.

Back on topic: These guys were definitly well prepared. They are heavily armed with rifles, bazookas, and other assorted explosives. Apparently they have mined most of the building, and strapped enough explosives to the support beams to bring down the entire building. On top of that, they strapped explosives to some people for the purpose of probably killing the most people if they decide to blow their charges. As we have already learned, they are deadly serious about not letting anyone escape - shooting one person and breaking their hand and firing bazookas at two others.

The way this is boiling down, I fear for the lives of everyone inside that Opera house. Any conclusion that does not end peacefully is going to end up with a resurgent Russian army plowing into Chechnya and another full fledged war to start (or flare up if you don't think that most recent war is over).

Zaitsev makes a good point you all ignore.

Russian occupation of Chechnya has led to immense abuses of human rights- all on behalf of the Russian troops. The UN human rights watch has long been urging the US and Russia to help cease the violence but neither have complied, and somehow, I can almost understand why these terrorists are doing what they are doing. Russian troops in Chechnya have violated women, rounded up civilians and executed them, looted buisnesses, and they continue to torture/beat detainees. There is evidence of mass, unmarked graves being dug. People "disappear" in the hands of Russian forces. Zaitsev alludes to this and you call him ignorant, i don't understand. Anyway, my problem with Assassin/Cossack's points of view is the fact they fail to look at both sides of the story. To automatically assume that the greater, larger power is always the just one and that Russia has the right to subjugate Chechnya just because it suits their interests is flawed, in my opinion. I think that Chechnya and Russia could work something out but the fact that Russia is "flexing it's power" in oppresive ways prevents solvency. While I do think Chechnya SHOULD be a part of Russia, I understand the rebelliousness due to the way that policy has been carried out. I think that both parties are to blame in different ways. You just need to take into account that Russia has done more harm to Chechnya than they have to Russia, it helps to understand the situation.

specifically on topic..
I think  this situation is extremely frightening.. and despite wanting to be optimistic  dont believe this thing is going to end without blood being spilled, on either side. I know that if the terrorists kill their hostages then there is going to be serious repercussions for the Chechnyan country, and if the rebels are killed and all goes well then it's going to lead to even more anti russian sentiment. I hope for the latter   :(

Cookie, if the UN human rights watch has actually proven any of this (and I don't know either way, this is not a baited question) why hasn't the UN done something about it?  Urging the US isn't going to do any good, the US is already fighting it's own war (right or wrong, it just aint gonna get involved at this time).  

One point that you are missing though is that you just can't bow to terrorist demands like that.  It reinforces terrorism as a weapon.

Also, taking hundreds of non soilders hostage is not my idea of a good way to drum up support in the world opinion.  

I'm all for peace talks, but they are awefully hard to hold at the point of a gun, no?

Heh, to answer your first question bucc..

the UNHRW has tried numerous times. They refuse to let Russia into NATO because of these violations and they have approached Putin several times but to no avail. What else is there to do? Plus, the UN wanted the US to act quite a while before 9/11 but the US didn't want to for some pointless reason, i forget it though. And I doubt the UN would try and force Russia itself seeing as that might lead to more war which would be counterproductive.. and yes, there is evidence of these crimes. Perhaps later I will dig up the URLs from past readings :)

and secondly, I know that it's counterproductive to give into terrorists and i never advocated that.. perhaps you are referring to the part where i mentioned the two sides compromising? by saying so i wasn't talking about the hostage situation, i was talking about the Chechnya vs Russia situation. I don't believe in surrendering to the terrorists at all.. but i do believe in bilateral peace talks between the two countries which might preempt future events like the one at hand. In addition, i know that Russia wouldn't ever give into terrorists anyway. Russia isn't like us; human life isn't of as great a value. I don't say this to be offensive or anything.. this is actually a statement made by a Russian citizen i talked with today.

And it's good that you're for peace talks, but remember, peace talks begin at the point of a gun and while they do end just as quickly in the same situation, that situation warrants an even better, more modern agreement, which should be the aim of the two warring countries.

Cookie, your points are well taken, but the letter of what I said got through to you, not the point.  My fault.

The point I was trying to make was that I'm not overlooking Zaitsev's point that there should be peace.  I don't know if there should be peace or not (sometimes, war is a necessary evil).  But, I know (and this was my mind set) that I'm not thinking about peace, or the Chechnyn side of things, while they are holding hostages.  And, in my opinion, we shouldn't (yet).  Two wrongs don't make a right, so yes, we should look at those facts, but not because they are holding a gun to so many heads.  I'd rather focus on the assholes holding hostages right in front of me, them being as wrong as you can get (no matter if the Russians are equally wrong or not).

As for the US not getting involved before 9/11, there are many reasons not to get involved (I just don't know which may apply), but I'm not going to talk about it until I read more.  This isn't a topic I'm up on, so any opinion I'd have would be pointless yet.

I also don't have enough info on the current situation in the Caucasus to offer much opinion. Cookie, could you post some places you get your info so we could research more into the topic? Thanks.

Bucc, i never offensively addressed your post, i was actually referring to assassins, but hell, debate it fun so here goes:

i acknowledge the fact that peace is a hard thing to think about right now but when you have things like this stemming from the lack of it it sends a signal, it's a call  that tells us that we NEED to do something beyond just solving this individual problem.. Russia needs to address the root causes of this attack. However, I don't necessarily believe that peace talks should begin immediately as yes, lives are at risk, i merely meant that peace should ensue after this situation because obviously something is in need of remedy. If Russia succeeds in rescuing the hostages and whatnot, what is to say it won't just happen again somewhere else later? This is a larger issue than simply holding hostages and before people jump to conclusions i just thought i'd inform some people :) and yes bucc, i agree that at the moment the prima facie issue at hand is the hostage situation. I merely wished to put it into context to perhaps help people understand.

Sin, I don't really see what would have been bad about letting the South go in the Civil War.  It is a Republican section of the US.  They should have their own country where they can avoid progression.  As regions go, the South is the poorest, the stupidest, and the least healthy (its proven so don't get uppity if you live there).

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/russia/chechnya (http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/russia/chechnya) might help. i got alot of my information from there a few weeks ago when i had to do an extemp. speech about human rights :) i'll look for more online info later, i can also recommend some books... hwoever right now is time for physics  :(





signed, cookie
 mathematics failure extraordinaire

Ok cookie. I have settled down now. You know how you felt the day of 9-11. Thats how I felt when I did that post. Oh btw that was a goldmember impesonation. Zaitsev that joke went *wooosh right over your head. I do have to admit I have some hatred towards the Chechens because of the apartment bomb blasts and my cousin was executed by Chechen rebels in the Caucuses. Lets take a look at Chechnya's history just to educate you people about the situation in my country. Chechnya along with the rest of the Caucuses were colonized by Russian Don Cossacks in the early 19th Century. Since then more and more Russians have been moving into Chechnya. During the war the whole chechen population along with Ossetians and Kalmyks were deported to Central Asia and Kazakhstan under Stalin (who happens to be a Georgian from the Caucuses). These ethnic groups were removed back to their homelands during the Kruschev era. They lived till 1991 when Dudayeev a Soviet fighter pilot stationed in Estonia came back to his home of Chechnya. He started a Ghandi like movement to obtain autonoumy and independence. Unfortunently Islamic fervor took hold and violence reigned. Yeltsin ordered the Russian Army to supress (not invade) the rebellion. This went disastorously for the Russian Army who just suffered from the breakup. Chechnya and Russia conducted peace talks and Chechnya was entitled to self-government under Russian occupation. In 1999 violence continued (by this time Dudayeev was dead) and Al Queda got into the war. Pakistanis, Afghanis, and Saudis entered in as Chechen volunteers and came to Russia via Georgia. Then the apartment blasts in Moscow happened. Yeltsin ordered the now more disiplined Russian military to go in and supress the new Chechen outrage. Now here we are. Now let me tell you why Russia wants Chechnya. First off Chechnya will never be independent, it already has autonomous republic status (the most indepndent you can get from Moscow). The Chechen resistance had attacked Dagestani and Ossetian citizens. Chechen Resistance is carring out a guerilla war with the help of Arab, Pushtun, and Punjabi allies. Many Arab nations such as Iraq (wich eally does not help Russia's cause), Iran, Syria, Turkey, Azerbajian, and Egypt have came out against Chechen rebels. This brings me to another point. Someone said that Russia making Peace talks with Chechens is like Americans making peace talks with Al Queda. Well guess what. Many Many Al Queda members are Chechen. There was a big battle in Kunduz, Afghanistan where many Chechens took part on the side of the Taliban. This does not justify human rights abuses done by Interior Soldiers. Those who have done these actions should be punished. I dont want to give the excuse that it is war and that what happens but it will happen, and all you can do is punish the purpetrators.

Heh Ran outta room. Anyhow it is imperative that Russia keep Chechnya because it would lead to further outrage in the Caucuses. The Dagestanis are peacefula and are unlikley to rebel, but Ossetia would most likley be a new target. New outrage and maybe even possibly a second breakup of Russia could happen. Weather you like it or not almost everything is connected to Russia in some way. Most of the worlds timber, bauxite alluminum ore,  titanium, diamonds. Not to mention vast oil fields in Siberia and a very large area in The TransCaucus and Caspian areas. This is not for Russia's intrests abroad, this is a matter of internal security. Russia already dominates the economic world of the Caucus republics of Georgia, Azerbadjian, and Armenia.

OMG, does anyone else want to field this so it's not just me picking on him?

Since when is the south Republican.  The bible belt (the states that were in the confederacy) are all considered Democratic states.  Georga, the Carolinas, Virginia, Tennessee, can you get more Democrats then there??

I wont even touch what would have happened to our nation if it had actually split.  I'm thinking that we may be singing "God Save the Queen" now if that were the case.  Or worse.

Cookie, you and me are just splitting hairs =P

Cossack, you don't really need to apologize.  I'm sure you handled yourself much better then most of the people here after 9/11.  You may be letting your anger rise early, since the situation isn't over yet, but I understand your anger.

One thing that you bring up that bears asking, to all of you, does the Chnechen government support any of these terrorists (that's what they are, blowing up buildings and taking hostages)?  Because, if the government doesn't support them, it makes it hard to have peace talks.  It's kind of like the England / Ireland problems of old.  The IRA was never recognized to speak to, until after they stopped most of the random bullshit bombings of innocents.  Killing soldiers in what you think is a war is one thing, but killing others to make a statement is another.  Is this situation along those lines?  Does anyone remember the old IRA besides me?

You say it yourself, the BIBLE BELT.  Which goes with the religious RIGHT.  Oh, and I'm talking Republican now, not Republican at the time of the civil War when Republicans were actually worthwhile (and not supported by the south).

This is about to get really off topic. Start a thread you two.

Bondo confuses me,
but yes the southern united states sucks (mostly texas), to many closed minded people who are easly influenced by religion in trucks for me. I guess i just don't like it cause i'm the lone athiest, who doesn't drive a domestic car.

splitting hairs? i dont understand :)

and coss, on 9/11 i felt confused and lost but i didnt feel hatred torward anyone. i still dont, im just sad that the world can't be at peace because someone screwed things up. I still maintain that was is sometimes necessary but never the means to an end, just the facilitator. Neither Russia nor Chechnya will get anywhere with more bloodshed.

Bucc, the current Chechen government has been installed by Moscow...the leader of the old one was executed by Russian forces in the late 1990's. That being said, the Chechen rebels do support this mission in my opinion because it was masterminded by their special operations commander.

Their demand is for Russian forces to leave the territory of Chechnya and let them be independent as they were in 1997, 1998, and parts of 1999.

Sadly, the cultural hatred has roots so deep that I doubt peace is a viable option anywhere in the near future. Peace with Chechnya in today's climate has to b Russian occupation and domination, because that is what essentially got the current president, Vladimir Putin, elected to office.

For clarification: Bucc, even though not fully recognized, the IRA did have dialogue with the British Government through it's political wing, Sein Fein.

As for Bondo: Ask a history professor at your school about what would have happened if we didn't get the South back. Letting them go would have had major repurcussions on the world as we see it today...just go and see what a decent professor would say.

Also, pull your head out of your ass. While it is called the Bible Belt, it is not safe to assume that they are all Republicans like you are making claim to. Your use of poor logic dismays me and your lack of facts makes you look like an idiot. Look how the states voted the last few election cycles and you will see that they aren't all Right Wing Christian radicals like Pat Robertson that you make them out to be.

As Sin said the current chechen government is Moscow freindly. However it is impossible to make peace talks because the Chechen resistance is like the Mujahdeen. There are so many groups acting together. There is no orginized leadership anymore because much of the Chechen Guerilla leadership has been assasinated. So who are ya gonna talk to?

Its hard to take down guirillas just like in VietNam(VietCong)

They dont have a designated leader like tarrorists

I think we should definatly keep it under control

Silent Killer, take this in the nicest possible way.  READ A HISTORY BOOK.  The North Vietnamese did have a leader.  A very very stong leader.  They faught a guiralla type war, just like the USofA did back in 1776 in many cases (we didn't stick to it, but when used, it was the shit).  The indians taught us that.  We had strong leadership back then too.

Off topic or not, I can't help but join in the fray.  Bucc you shouldn't have all the fun:


I do live there, and I am going to get uppity.  First of all, Bucc, I'm sorry to say that Bondo does have the correct generalization.  Some of this area is somewhat backwards, and neanderthalan thinking permeates all levels of society.  But that doesn't mean we don't produce smart, rich, and clean healthy people too!

What I mean by that is that we do have more Republicans, but for Bondo to suggest that the US abandon us to the KKK, Christian Coalition, and NRA seems very contrary to any humanitarian feelings he has espoused in the past.  

But every area has its share of misguided people. . .where the hell did you get your "proof?!"  Perhaps whichever region you inhabit might better deserve the title of "stupidest" (and that's only because I can't attest to your health or income)

Wow. Russia stormed the theater apparently, and there was very little loss of life. Of course, the information is still coming in, but it sounds like a semi-happy ending.

Loudnotes, by all means, jump right in here.  But it is easy pickings when someone makes those over generalized statements.

My reference to being the "Democratic South" is because many of your fine southern states, that once upon a time wanted to leave the USofA, are now controled by Democrats.  I posted a link about it earlier.  This is in no way to mean that you don't have your share of rednecks or Republicans.  I'm sure you have both, just like every other state (we have rednecks up here I know, and are home to the Republican Party).

Back on topic, I just got back from the bar.  What's happening in Moscow?

The Russians pumped the Opera house full of sleeping gas and raided it. No count so far on hostage deaths, but supposedly 36 of the 40 Chechens were killed. The last 4 escaped somehow.

From what I see right now, the Alpha team and others did a superb job of preventing the main explosives from detonating and rescuing most of the hostages.

60 hostages died. Some from stress, some from lack of needed medication, and some from the stand off between Spetsnaz, Alpha, and the Chechen Rebels. The Alpha plan was a very good plan, I would not have thought of sleeping gas personally. Then again I am not a special forces commander. You see our Army is not as incompetant as some of you Westerners make it out to be.

Except for letting a few get away, I'd say this was a much better then expected outcome.  Much better then I would have expected.  

I know drugging the food and water that goes in is a normal tatic (just mild stuff to make them slower, but not realize they've been drugged).  I didn't know there was a sleeping gas that could work that quickly, and still be relatively safe.  

Well done by the rescue forces.

Well, apparently some of the hostages died by choking on their own vomit, but you can look at it as a few dying for the greater good. The big thing is that the major explosive devices didn't detonate which probably saved hundreds of other lives.

Tell that to their families

Ben

To echo that thought.  Yes, I think that getting out of this with 10% of the hostages killed (more or less) is a remarkable win.  If I were on the inside, or had family on the inside, I like those odds a lot better then any other option.  Better to have the chance.

Me n you and assassin are looking at it through statistics, not through actual human life. If you knew someone on the inside who had died you wouldn't be (most likely) "Ah well, 10% died. We were successful"

Ben

I didnt know anyone on the inside but the theater was in the neighborhood I lived in. The families of the dead will be sad (no shit). The Team had a really tough job to do. They had to break into the entrances guarded by Chechens and laced with mines with out making an audible shot. Not to mention the Chechens probablly used some hostage as a human sheild. They have done this before in a southern Russian hospital where they held 1000 hostages. About 400 hostages and patients died as well as many interior forces soldiers. Judging from the past hostage situations, this was a true success.

Actually, I'd still be grateful for the efforts that they put forth.  a 90% chance is more then I could have hoped for.  I'd also want the blood of the other terrorists.  But that's because I'm a vengful prick.

Ben, everyone knew that there was no one in hell that this would come out a situation where everyone is holding hands and singing "kum-bay-yah." The people inside are fortunate that the Russian forces came up with a plan to rout these terrorist assholes and prevent the explosion of the big bombs or else we would be talking about a complete failure with everyone dead - including numerous special ops troops.

While the loss of life is regretable, it is far less than I had anticipated the way teh terrorists had the place set up.

There will be a renewed and envigored push back into Chechnya because of this, and there will probably be hell to pay.

No, I understand there wasn't a large loss of life, and frankly, I'm amazed... I just don't like to look at human death as statistics. Seems less valiable that way

Ben

That is true. Yet there is really no other way to compare wether or not this operation is a success. Knowing that as soon as I am out of college I am going into the "Blue Barets" as an LT. I may be tied into this conflict and serve a few tours over there.

What the hell... Now 90 died... Not 60!

Ben

Holy shit!?!? I guess 90 died. Well it still went down better than I predicted. It is Russia, you never know if what Putin is telling you is true.

Very interesting, it now appears that the Russians used a chemical weapon on the Opera House by unleashing it through the vents. No wonder only one Alpha trooper was wounded and families aren't allowed to see the hostages that were set "free." I am sure this story will unfold more, but this news is very startling and the death toll might rise more.

I heard we used fine particles of vallium. This will be very interesting, then again what else could they do.

Now it is up to 115 wtf is going on in my country?

Like I said, hey used a chemical weapon. When I originally posted, the death toll was still at 90 so I am correct already. Anyways, something like 150 more people are in severe or critical condition still, and some of them might still die.

This seems to be a good article (http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/10/27/moscow.deaths/index.html) for those who want to keep up-to-date on the situation at hand.

I think this situation is going to break Putin's political carrer. As of now I sure as hell am not voting for him.

While I applaud the initial strike by russian special forces, their government's respose after the strike was terrible. I can't imagine why they wouldn't at least provide an antidote for the gas. The whole handling of the situation with the victim's families is deplorable. Where is the leadership? A very well planned technical attack, but where is the crisis management?