*DAMN R6 Forum

i have decided that i am going to get a new computer at the end of this summer(provided i can earn enough cash)
my dellemma is this, do i get a top of the line imac, or an emac(g4 towers are out of the question due to lack of funds, i would still take a dual 1 ghz in a heartbeat if i could)

the things that are most important to me are(in order of importance):
graphics card
max ram size
ability to handle different resolutions(mainly for games)
speed
ability to burn cds
hd space

the ability to play dvd's is optional

currently i am leanind toward the imac, but the emac is tempting as well

any input you have would be appreciated

Well.... first, if it's your only computer I always suggest a laptop.  The newest iBook has a good enough video set to play all the games now... and can do everything else you are looking for.  And be nice and portable (which is the best thing in the world!!!).  I know Ace will agree with me (except that he'll say the powerbook, since that is his computer of choice).  Laptops just have everything good going for them.  The powerbooks are probably out of your price range, but if not, grab one.

IBooks and Powerbooks are about the same as a new iMac.... performance and graphics and storage are all pretty close (except for the iBook being a G3... but it's still a good solid machine).  All of them have CDRW options.  And none of them can really be upgraded....

Which is the other thing.... if you don't have a big bag o money, you'll probably want a machine you can upgrade for a few years.... which is a powermac.  If you pick up a scaled down one of those with a good CPU in it... you can add a better video card and much more HD space as time goes by.  With the iMac or laptops... you choices are limited and ugrading is a pain in the ass.

So... in order of higest recomendation to you (based upon the information you gave):

1) iBook  ($1500 with the small, $1800 with the large)
2) eMac ($1100 - more sturdy and cheaper then the iMac... bigger screen.. just not as cool)
3) Powermac G4 800 ($1500 - cheaper then the 800 iMac but you need a cheap monitor... better graphics and storage and upgradable)
4) Powerbook ($2500 or $3200 gets you a do everything laptop... if you can afford it.)

Take those for what they are worth....

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I would go for a PC personally, but you want to stick with Mac (And OS X. It?s so much better then XP!) then look at the PowerBooks or the G4?s. I would wait until the new G4/5?s come out so you can get a better price.

If you want a PC, get the following:
AMD XP1800+ ($90)
EPoX 8K3A ($85)
256MB DDR333 PC-2700 ($55)
Seagate 60GB HDD ($80)
Antec 1040B case ($79)
GeForce4Ti4400 ($250)
LiteOn 40x CDRW ($80)
Your choice of 19? displays ($250+)

Graphics card - If you get any new Mac with a 32 MB card or better, you should have no problems really. This is includes every current model except the iBook. I'm pretty sure the only current Macs with better cards are the Powermac G4's, and that's when things can start getting pricey. One other important thing to note, as GRIFT pointed out, is that only in the Powermac (and possibly the eMac, but I'm not sure) can you replace your card. If you get an iMac or a laptop you are stuck with what you got pretty much.

Max RAM capacity - Don't worry about this. You can stick at least 1 gig in whatever you get, and that's going to be plenty of memory. I have 512, and I have never come close to having any problems with not having enough memory. On a related note, I'm pretty sure all the current models have a 133 mhz system bus, but you should double check this.

Ability to handle different resolutions - Here are the current top supported resolutions of the various models:
eMac: 1280 * 960
iMac: 1024 * 768
Powermac: Depends on the display
iBook: 1024 * 768
TiBook: 1280 * 854
This is a matter of personal preference really. Some people don't need a lot of desktop space, others can't get enough. You just need to figure out what you want/need.

Speed - With the exception of the iBook and the dual 1 ghz Powermac, all models include a G4 between 667 mhz and 933 mhz. In all reality, this is not ?a huge difference. The TiBook offers both the 667 and the 800. I have a 500 mhz G4 in my TiBook which has always provided me ample computing power. Any of these G4 chips will last you a long time. You will find other areas of your computer lacking before the CPU. I would stay away from the iBook simply because it is still a G3. OS X is designed for the G4 and I have heard from many people that even with the fastest G3's that it can lag it up a bit.

Ability to burn CD's - All are CDRW standard or as an option.

HD space - The laptops come with 20-30 gig drives if I remember correctly. The eMac is 40 gig, and the iMac is 40-60 gigs. The Powermac goes up to some ridiculously high storage capacity. As long as you aren't doing video editing, 30 should be more than enough. If you are doing editing, nothing will be enough. :P In either case, you can gauge what you will need based on your current demands.

DVD - I believe a DVD drive is available on all the models except the eMac.




Based on these criteria, it seems like an iMac, eMac, a TiBook, or a low end Powermac would fit your needs very well. This is when personal preference, cost, and other factors come into play. The iMac and the TiBook definitely get points for being cooler. The TiBook also has the added advantage of being a laptop. The Powermac offers you the ability to expand in the future, much more so than the others, yet you need to buy a separate monitor. The eMac is the cheapest. Depending on how much money you are willing to spend, here is what I would recommend:

Under $1,200: eMac. You get a damn fine G4 computer that will last you a long time at a very low price.

$1,200 - 2,000: iMac. It's just too sweet to pass up. I could go on and on about it, but I won't. You will get more frills than the eMac (i.e. DVD capabilties), and it still can be had for a relatively low price.

More than $2,500: TiBook. I can give you my word that you will love that computer more than any other you have ever had. It does basically anything you can ask from a Mac and it's a laptop! It's a bit more pricey, but portability costs money.





Of course, this all comes with the disclaimer that most of what I just said can and will probably change after MWNY. Shopping for a computer so soon before is kinda pointless, but it will still give you a good general idea of what you want. Just keep in mind that whatever you look at right now will be cheaper soon and there will be better models.

Actually, with enough RAM, my iBook doesn't lag at all with OS X.  My old iBook SE 366 runs OS X ok, but the 600 really works well with it (they've closed the gap a little with the updates... at first it didn't work worth a crap).  The biggest difference I noticed between my iBook and the dual 1ghz was in ripping MP3's.  The dual is over twice as fast in that area.  Everywhere Else I don't notice much.  Photoshop would be another app you would really notice the difference... but I don't use it.  I actually like the iBook because I like my portables small (not just thin) and it just feels more rugged to me then the powerbooks.  


Except the iBooks.  


Well said.  Come MWNY, you'll be able to either find a better machine, or buy one of the ones we are talking about at a good price.

Also, with Ace's very good arguments, I re-read Brain's priority.... and would say that the Powermac G4 800 would probably serve him best.  It does have the better video card.... is as cheap as the iMac (even with a CRT), is faster then the iMac (133 bus speed does make a difference) and he can upgrade it more.  

Assuming that his price range is from $1200 - $2000, I'd still get the iMac first... because portable is more important to me.... and I think he'd learn to like it once he tried it (especially at college).  But given just his list, I'd have to change my pick to the 800 G4.  Not the hottest computer out there.... but it's the one that fit's what you were looking for.  It will also be the first to see a price drop come MWNY (if G5 or a big speed bump are in the works, you may even get a 933 for that price in July.... at least that's the way it has worked out over and over in the past).

i have been told by people(my dad mainly, he is a it manager at rockwell automation)
that upgrading doesnt really do all that much for the money, and it would probabily ?be better to ?buy an imac and not worry about upgrading...
what do you think

i have also heard that flat panels are crappy for handeling bultiple resolutions, is that still true?

also those powermacs come with a better graphics card than the imac's riight?

alco what would you reccomend for an opical 2 button scroll mouse?(after having a 2 button mouse foe about 2 monts i never want a 1 buton again)

The necessity of upgrading kinda depends from person to person. For the average person, they might want a little more RAM eventually and that's about it. For say a gamer, the ability to get a new graphics card could be important.

I haven't heard anything like that about the flat panels. I got a 15" flat panel (one of the originals) at home on the G4 tower and never had any problems with it.

The base Powermac comes with a GeForce2 I believe, but you can get up to a GeForce4.

I don't know anything about 2 button mice because the Apple Pro owns.

does anyone know how much it will cost to upgrade from a geforce2 to a geeforce 4?

Well...

Yes, the Powermac G4's have better video cards then the iMac... plus, you can always switch it later if the need comes up.

As for upgrading... it depends on what your dad is talking about.  Upgrading processors isn't all what it's cracked up to be... I'll give him that.  But you can add an SCSI card, a new video card... more RAM...  and multiple HD and other devices in the Powermac (which is all considered "upgarding"...)  Look at it this way... if you run out of just HD space... you can add two more in the powermac... and save mucho bucks (you'd have to go external with the iMac... or replace the internal with a bigger one... can't just add them).  No disrespect to your dad... but I'm in the business of Network Architecture too... and we upgrade machines all the freaking time.  It's called scalibility.  You want the machines to be able to scale up as you need it (but not to purchase the extra stuff untill you need it... since prices always go down).  I've always upgraded my Powermacs.... at least in HD space and RAM... most of the time in video cards too.  The thing to consider is: How many years will you be using this?  Not just as your primary, but also if you'll be using or needing a server later (that doesn't need to be the latest, fastest or have a killer video card).  A good example, Before getting my latest, my old Powermac G3 was my file/web server... now I've sold that and use my old Cube as my file/web server.... the G4 500 is plenty good for a web / mail / ftp / KDX server.  It's never working hard.  But it would suck for MOHAA or RTCW....  So I drop in a 80 gig HD and a little more RAM... BAM... server ready to go (oh, and load OS X Server or Linux).

As for LCD displays... they only have 1 real resolution (which is the max).  Anything smaller is a zoom, and looks all fuzzy.  Also, LCD's aren't the best for games (but I like them better for just about anything else).

yea, i think he was talking in the long run that it is better to buy a new machiene then continuing to upgrade a really old one(due the system bus bottlenecks created from the bus being WAY too slow)

Yeah, processor upgrades is where it get's a little flakey...  can't go too far, or the system bus speed screws you... and if it's not on the cheap, it just isn't worth it.  

On the other hand, I put a G4 450 card into the iMac I gave my dad... and that breathed life in it for hime for 18 months so far (for just under $300)... which wasn't bad.  It was an old 333.  So it's just another couple things to balance.

just for reference purposes, i am planning to keep what i am going to buy for 4 to 5 years.

also,how much ram do you think i should get installed, do begin with?

RAM is real cheap right now if you don't get it from Apple...

I just ordered two more 512 meg's for $70 each from www.memorytogo.com.... so don't order it from apple with a bunch of RAM.

Bare minimum would be 256 Megs.... I'd go to 512 if I were you and had the extra $50 or so to do it.  You can always add more memory later... just remember to buy the bigest DIMM you can at the time, because you are limited to a few slots... and don't want to waste your money on a 64 or 128 that you will just trow away later.

i skipped a few of the posts, but I didn't see anyone mention an older g4 tower. You can get a very nice refurb with a monitor with a 3 year applecare plan for pretty cheap.

It may not be for you, but that's what I did and I've been really happy with my dual 500 (I bought 2 years ago, mind you ;)) If you're at all interested, check out smalldog.com, I've had a couple of great experiences with them and I'm a big fan of their customer service.

Also, I got a microsoft optical mouse from Best Buy for 40 bucks and it works great.

Cheers,

blackhand

I've done refub'd in the past.... but it still scares me sometimes.  All the applecare warenty means is they will fix it... not that you wont be without your computer for a few weeks... or that you will lose data (well... anything not backed up nice and regular like).  I know most refurbs are just fine (it was usually something real stupid)... but I had one once that had a shitty power supply.... kept frying the damn board.   And it took them 3 service calls to figure out the problem.  

But, you can find some real sweet deals if you look.

Don't go LCD if you are a gamer. I'm going to be getting a second display, and it will be a LCD because of size (And because it will be in my car eventually) but I will be using my CRT for most of the high definition stuff (Running at 1600x1200 w00t)
A GeForce2MX runs at about $40, and a GeFroce4Ti4400 runs at about $250.
First, I personally upgrade my PC'z every 3 to 6 months (I have a new one coming in 2 weeks, to be true to the 3 month:)). If I were you, I would plan on a time frame of closer to 2 years for a Mac, not 4-5. A Mac is still good enough after 2 years, but after five, it's crap. Just as a PC is.

About RAM - Grifter is totally right. Buy the least you can get from the company, then go to a good site and get 512MB+ of RAM.

Oh, and if you are interested in a PC, I can get you total top of the line for $700, and mid-range for $450. Bottom end (1.4GHz, 20GB, 256MB, 16MB Vid) runs you about $250.

the reason i said 4-5 years is that i usually that is how long we made them last
right now i am running a  400 mhz iMac DVD SE
what is that? 3 years old?
still runs fine, but it needs a diffefent graphics card

See, if you got a G4 tower (Or a G3 tower) you could just pop a ATI 8500LE in to it :)

I would recommend a maximum time frame of 2 years, but then, my personal time frame is 3 months so?

Seeing as I still have computers working from the early 90's, I'll chose to disagree with Rom....

In five years, you wont be using it as your base computer most likely... but my old colorclassic is hell on wheels as the MP3 player for my sound system... a little ifnrared devise... a bigger HD... and BAM... i put the audio out right in my tuner and I have all my music on that little box with my sound system....  There are always uses... even as file / web servers or just a backup SAN (storage area network)...  or as a machine for your wife so she doesn't hog or screw up yours....  She doesn't need anything better then a 366 iBook to get her e-mail and surf the web....

"Oh, and if you are interested in a PC, I can get you total top of the line for $700, and mid-range for $450. Bottom end (1.4GHz, 20GB, 256MB, 16MB Vid) runs you about $250. "  I will take you up on that sigma.  What does the 700$ get me?  I need a PC for my other house.

Cow - YGPM!

so, if i go with a power mac, what do you recommend for a monitor(a ctr one)
also what size, i was thinking a 17 or a 19 in mon should be good...

There are plenty of cheap yet decent CRT's out there.... two things to consider:

You want one that has a high refresh rate at higher resolutions.  If you use 1600x1200 on a 19".... it makes a huge difference if it's at 60hz or 100hz.  If it's not at 85hz for the resolutions you'll be using... don't bother.

Next, look at the weight of the monitor and how much the shelf you are putting it on can hold.  I sagged a shelf on a desk with a 19"... it was much heavier then my old 15" I had before it.  

But there are plenty of good buys to be had out there... as long as you look at those specs, you should be ok.  I miss anything Ace?

You got it all Grifter (Sorry, I'm not Ace, but I just bought a 19" CRT)

You have got to keep the refresh rate above 75hz, or you will get a headache. I run mine at 85hz, at 1200x1600.

Sounds good GRIFT. Frankly I don't know much about monitors because I haven't had a need. We have had the same monitor for our G4 tower since we got it, and I don't have a monitor to hook up for my laptop. Heh, 15" has been plenty for me, but I guess that's because I have never had more.

One thing to go along with how much it weights, think about how deep it is. If you have a deep monitor and you don't have much desk space, this can be a problem sometimes. I don't know if you are in college, but I know at school desk space isn't always plentiful. Just a little thing to note.

)too bad i dont have the cash to by a plasma screen and use that...
another question
i have a memory module in my imac
can i use that in my new comp, or would it be easier/ neccessary to buy all new memory
(the reason i am asking all these questions is to confirm what i think i know, i want to buy the best setup i can with the money i earn, and i dont want to regret the purchace later

Brain, there's nothing wrong with asking questions (as long as you aren't directing them at Rom, hehe). As you said, it's much smarter to figure things out now than a year from now when you find out your computer choice was stupid and you want/need a new one.

Unfortunately, I don't think the memory from your iMac is going to be too helpful. If I remember correctly, they have a 66 mhz system bus, so your memory is probably the same speed (unless you stuck faster memory in for some reason). All the new computers have either a 100 mhz or 133 mhz system bus, so you will likely want PC100 or PC133 (depending on the system) to get the full benefit of a faster bus. However, this does not mean your current memory is worthless. Depending on what you get, you will either have 2 or 3 slots. Say you fill one slot up with a 512 MB stick (I would recommend always filling each slot to its highest capacity), but you don't have the money or need for more memory currently. You could stick whatever you have in your iMac in the other slot and see a small to medium boost until you decide you need to upgrade further (if you ever do). What do you have in your iMac currently?

PS - This doesn't apply to laptops. If you get a laptop, your memory won't fit.

Brain, by all means ask away.  Everyone has to learn stuff sometime.  That doesn't make you a dumbass at all.

If you get the new powermac's, it will be with a 133mhz system bus.  You will not want to put in 66mhz DIMM's into it, sorry.  Not only could that cause errors and slow down your computer (if it worked... which I think it should, but don't know for sure), but RAM is pretty darn cheap right now.

I agree with Ace here.  Buy the biggest DIMM you have the cash for when you can.  But hey, with 512M DIMM's going for $70, and 256M going for $30, you should be able to pick up plenty for just a few bucks.

YGPM? uhh what?

so, you're saying get the comp with a 512  stick when i get it, and then order the rest  form another source, right?
and to answer aces question i have one 128 stick(in the slot that is hard as hell to get too) and one 256 stick
in the other. as far as we konw, that was the biggest module this system will recognize
also i do know somebody who wouldnt mind the extra memory, if they buy the system i have now (for small db management, nothing too serious)  so not carring over te extra ram is no big deal

Well, I wouldn't necessarily order it with a 512 MB stick from Apple. I'm not sure about their current prices, but it's usually cheaper to get the least RAM possible and get all of yours from an outside source.

When you order it from apple... order it with the smallest amount of memory.  Right now on Apple's site, it's $300 for a 512meg DIMM for the new G4's... it's $90 on Ramjet and $70 on MemoryToGo.  So, what we are saying is get it with whatever it comes with, then just add the biggest DIMM you can after.  Hell, it comes with 128megs usually, get that, and even if you can only spend a few bucks, you can get another 256megs (and 384 will run just fine for a while).  But since RAM is cheap now, don't skimp on it.  Buy one DIMM as big as you can, cause you only have 3 slots to work with...

ok, that makes alot more sence
p.s. when is MWNY?

July 15-19. Of course, don't but anything before that because you would be throwing money or a better computer away.

that is exactly why i was asking
it is usually pro level machines at mwny, right?(or is that san fran...)

The latest buzz on the rumor mills are to expect another big speed bump on the G4.  They don't expect to see the G5's at MWNY (we can hope, but the buzz isn't there).  Rumors are that the pro machines may bump as far as 1.5 and 1.6GHz.  Rumors also say that the iBook is getting another update (nothing specific, but I know that IBM has the G3's past a Gig now... ).  If the iBooks get another speed boost, then I'd expect the powerbooks to get one as well (can't have the iBooks G3 running at a faster MHz then the Powerbooks G4... it's just not done).  

You'll also see some hype about OS X 10.2 that will be out in Sept (just a guess).  

This could be like the MWNY a few years ago and see upgrades to every single unit (including the iPod).  It wouldn't surprise me at all, if the jump in G4 speed is that high.  But take it all with a grain of salt (or a brick)... because the rumors are usually much nicer then what we really get.