*DAMN R6 Forum

Civic, you poor misguided soul. Don't you realize that by trying to stop my voice of protest you only strengthen my case?

I have not been out of line in any way, shape or form. I have been nothing but respectful in this discussion. Whether you believe it or not I am trying to help the DBL save itself. This is a perfect example of the BS is dealt with regularly as an admin. Somebody doesn't like what you say and instead of discussing it like rational human beings they stop listening, or in this case, they resort to censorship.

That IS NOT nor will it EVER BE a healthy thing for this league. How can you say you give a damn about this league when you are not even willing to hear opinions that differ from yours?

Legitimate issues were being discussed and it is absolutely reprehensible that you would try to stop a serious discussion about the future of the DBL. It is your DUTY as an ADMIN to consider these larger issues. This just goes to show that some admins cannot tolerate dissent to the point that they are willing to silence anyone who criticizes them (even constructively).

If I were a member of the public at large I would immediately call for Civic's resignation on the grounds of Gross Negligence, Total Incompetence, and Conduct Unbecoming an Admin.

However, I am no longer a member of the general public, so I bid you all a fond farewell. I will remember the good times we had (however few) and I wish you all luck in restoring your league to it's former glory. Though I will not hold my breath.

Hooah alaric. Although i am an admin on here i dont like the way these so called "perfect" admins locking posts whenever they feel. I do agree Alaric. Most of the admins on the *DAMN forums abuse their privilages by locking threads that are about them. And then they go off and complain about others abusing their privilages. Whats the community coming to. Alaric, no hard feelings on the resignation. I hope you enjoy the time that you have now that you are no longer an admin. Good luck and good gaming.

it's just the truth which is missing in your posts, Alaric... there's nothing to stop.

Maybe its the truth in his eyes but not in yours? Everyone seems to have tunnel vision. They see what they want to and not what they dont want to. Maybe when these people see both sides then we will have a nice league, until then let the noob talk continue.

oh, forgot to mention that Mauti posted a new message in the BL news (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=6686) a few minutes ago.

I would like to call for Civic's resignation on the grounds of Gross Negligence, Total Incompetence, and Abuse of Power.

Civic, what the hell is wrong with you? You disagree with Alaric, then you go right out and prove his point.

One of the reasons that, in my eyes, you'll never be a good admin is  because you won't acknowledge the fact that there's a problem. Things won't get fixed unless people acknowledge that they exist.

This is by no means the first time I've seen you abuse your power. You're an obsessive, power crazed incompetent, egotistical fool. You'll never admit when you make a mistake. You think you're so far above everyone else that you can get away with anything, and you're so sure of yourself that you rarely even bother consulting other moderators, or paying any attention to the admin guidelines.

This league can even begin to take steps forward if people like Civic are running it.

Here here!

uhh lets keep in mind that you shouldn't jump on just one admin....

 ::)

Let the games begin!

 ;D

As I'm outside of the Admin system I can only vouch for what I have seen of the Admining here.

The Admining, on the whole. has been good.  

However, as for Mauti not being around ... I have to agree with Al.

I've sent him a little cash not long ago, but my account doesn't reflect that.  Do I care that much about being visibly a DAMN supporter? No. But I do see it as a tiny glimpse into the general lack of Mauti's participation. Frankly, dude's busy! So I don't begrudge him for not being a common participant. But it revels that there is a lack of leadership.

And I think the way that Alaric feels demonstraits that clearly.

and


Well, you guys are just realizing now the reason I left as a DAMN administrator. As you can see Im not the only one who see's this.

btw: Eight, you make me laugh. The only reason why your not riping Tyhpy apart for his post is because you see this as an oportunity for you new ladder system. Pretty weak if you ask me.

I For once agree with typhy on this (am muc has i hate to say it) being out of the DBL this season but still following whats going on I have seen just what was happing. Not trying to flame typhy of anything.. but.. he did this in the past as well and you see where it got him.... Kicked from the admin team. (sry typhy.. not trying to offend you.. just proving a point about your post).

I'm glad i bring a chuckle to you, Vood...

Didn't know you had a sense of humor...
I didn't rip into Typhy just maybe because i agree with him...?

And you left DAMN as an admin because i believe you was next with the admin firing...
Voting on issues you shouldnt of been voting on, breaking admin guidlines... not even knowing how to play a ghr replay back in the days... dude you were the sorry-est excuse for an admin in any league... Again...

IM GLAD YOUR NOT AN ADMIN ANYWHERE...

In response to Sixhits,

sorry that I didn't update your status, but I didn't read the Black Ops so I didn't saw your message. When you made your donation I emailed you back to thank you for your support and asked if you are on the forums here, but I never got an answer so I didn't know that Nevin is you Sixhits.

btw new hardware should arrive here at the end of the week  ;D.

In response to all those postings I have read about the BL. Some of you are posting complaints that aren't true anymore since the end of season VII. The admins have discussed and voted about so many things. Of course not all changes are obvious if you don't play on the ladder. Yes there are still few critic points and the major one being me not active. Well since few seasons admins have the complete power to change almost everything, and Alaric is right that there have been issues especially in season VII where I should have been online. That are stories were Bucc was completly right, but even this things aren't true anymore. If we had an important issue this season where my help was really required the chairman contacted me and had my response within one day.

About the games Eight: Battlefield and Black Hawk Down were just released and we never have games added midseason. Further you forget that we concentrate on tactical games so you don't find Medal of Honor here. Of course we can offer a ladder for each game out there but that would lead to nothing, to a bunch of very poorly administrated ladders. Our rules are finally with the help of Noto very clear and in this season we had less issues than ever before.

Yep, of course there is room for improvements. The idea of a chairman submitted by Voodoo and Bucc at the end of season VII helped a lot. It was a good contructive addition.

Season IX will come with a few changes ladderwise and a lot of surprises like season 5 had once ago.

Last but not least it is fun that the guys who don't play on the ladder are always the first who jump on the bash and flame bandwagon.

Alaric the reason why your previous post has been locked by Civic is obvious - the words you used weren't appropriate. You just flamed around. No reasons just swearing, bashing, etc. This thread deserved to be locked and I gonna send it to the sewage work now.

Bye,

Mauti

Convenient how you say I "flamed around" "swearing, bashing, etc." after you carefully destroyed the evidence. And how you're now going to destroy this thread because you don't like the ideas it represents.

Mauti, I never thought I'd say this, but, you disgust me. What have you become?

Lets see? We jump on things because they same problems keep coming back to bite each one of us in the ass...

We got banned because we told the admins to take the extention and shove it... all this came with less then 2 hours before the first round of finals ended, after we waited all weekend long... THEN the main admin on the hunt for this extention is the same moron who was stuck in the same position this season, asking for no extention...

Shit keeps getting changed back and forth nothing is ever set in stone.
Few seasons before the BTs & MP5 fiasco,  i believe 2 other clans had the same exact issue almost, yet the admins voted diffrently on that again....

We post because we care, we asked you an elandrion to help change the league back in the past and yes there has been some good and bad changes...

I dont believe that Alaric was "flaming" he among others have the same exact point of view... Which if you were around you would see that its the popular vote.

As for BFG being a chairman... what good does that do? (No offense dude and please get better) He doesn't have any real power... and if so? Should he be in a clan? Should ther be more then 1 admin/mod in a clan?

If there is an issue between MOD and someone else... and the admins cant decide on a decision does the Chairman make the decision then?

Just curious not flaming...

The chairman has no voting capacity. His job in the event of a deadlock would be to contact Mauti and/or Elan for a tiebreaker vote. BFG has one job, and that is to smack admins who misbehave. Sadly, BFG is not availible to be online just now, due to his car accident...

I saw nothing wrong with Alarics old thread, why was it locked? There was no abusive language or rudeness towards the admins. I agree there are a lot of problems with the BL, but this mongering of locking threads and acting weird around each other isn't going to solve the larger problem of the community tearing itself apart.

In a word -- Thanks! No hard feelings what-so-ever.

Hope the new stuff kicks a regular ass-load.



Additionally, here's hoping everyone is willing to work things out. Regardless of the disagreements and slighted egos, the structural problems witheh BL are mild. Mostly, it works. Everyone here is very passionate about the BL -- that should tell you just how successful an institution it is.

It's a real shame to see ppl like Alaric go. I think most ppl would agree that the job of admining the Bl is mostly thankless and hard to execute. Seeing ppl leave who had dedicated a portion of their time to admining things is disheartening.

In the end I expect it to work out, because we all care about the system and enjoy the community. So let's try and focus on the positives, even while we're all feeling the negatives so strongly.

Alaric,

you know that no evidence will be destroyed it is just in a place where normal user can't see it. So I can bring it back whenever I want.

If you read the first reactions on your post people had no glue what you disliked you just complained without giving reasons. I think a thread that only complains but without giving points what you dislike and why is a flame thread.

And I'm still the same as I ever was, I just have less time to run the league myself that's true so I tried to give the admins the full power to change things but obviously for some this was also disappointing in few points so we gonna try out a mixed version for season IX: me as producer and the admins as directors.

Eight, I don't know why you still blame me for the BTs ban. The ban was decided by the admins, guys representating few active clans in the league. They had their reasons and made a common decision. Please get over it. I know that you are disagreeing with the decision, but I think the admins considered the facts and decided to ban BTs. I don't have to say more about this.

 Alaric is right that Bucc and the other admins have needed me at this time, because they needed some assistance with their decision, unfortunaly I couldn't help due my lack of presence in the forums. That's a valid complain, and to prevent that this is happening again I have a good chairman, who gives advice and informs me about important things where I'm needed beside his other functions.

Bye,

Mauti

So for the public at large, it's effectively destroyed.

Mauti, you know as well as I that I enumerated my points later on in that thread. But since you conveniently destroyed the evidence, you can now get away with saying it was just flames.

The reason I was brief early on was out of respect for the other admins. But I soon discovered that the general public had legitimate questions and I felt I owed it to them to answer their questions to the best of my ability.

Now, there are things that they know that they know. There are things they know that they don't know. And there are things that they don't know that they don't know. I was just letting them know some of the things that they didn't know that they didn't know. And I hope you know that now everyone knows what they didn't know.

The chairman is a step in the right direction, but it doesn't go far enough. And the fundamental problem of it being YOUR league remains. For a league to have real lasting power it must be owned by the public. Having one person own it gives it the achilles heel of a single point of failure.

I think that's the problem where the misunderstandings start:
on one side you accuse me that I'm too less active. I know that I'm less active due university so I tried to give the complete power to the admins step by step. So the league doesn't really need me and I can play the role of an observer.
 
In season VII there was the problem that the admins had all the equal rights, and some did whatt they wanted, ignoring guidelines etc, this is where Bucc asked me for help. I wasn't there, so he retired because he didn't see a future, if there won't be someone who has the power to punish such admins and mods. He suggested me to add a chairman, that plays the role of an independent judge, who controls the admins and also has the function to improve teamwork among the admins. Season VIII started and I added the chairman alongside with some old and new admins. Bucc was pissed off that I still let some of the old admins in their position, because he didn't understand my intention. My thoughts were if someone has already made a fault, and you speak with him about it, he won't do it again and when, he will be out, because he already had his second chance. The result of the last season gave me right. Noto became a good teamplayer and worked hard and Civic isn't a bad admin only because he isn't a yessayer. I always try to have admins with different views aboard, so you can cover most pro and con if you decide something new.

Alaric, so you want the league to be owned by the public on the other hand you critisize that nothing is going on. Sorry in a democracy you almost can only make small steps forward except you have an absolute majority. That's democracy. This season we made a lot of decisions and only because not all of your votes have passed, that doesn't mean it doesn't work. You can say it didn't go you(in your opinion) far enough but that has nothing to do with power of the public because you, the admins, had the power.

To sum up: you are saying that you want both the power for the public, but also the power so that everyone can decide everything alone.

Alaric, maybe I'm wrong but I think what you criticise is not the things you are really posting here, because if you are honest most of your points weren't true this season, I was there when you needed me and otherwise you(admins) decided the things on your own.

I think it's more the fact that you are, first, a little bit disappointed, that all the great ideas you had, couldn't be realised and second, that what you miss is the FUN. Correct me if I'm wrong. You are also as fed up as I'm with all these complainers, with the cb issues(thank goodness we almost had none this season), and the seriousness that's going on in cbs, where is hardly room for fun next to the "how many points will I lose/win"  - thinking, "my A team isn't here only my B team, so we can't play because we lose to much points" - excuses. I think that are the real issues we have to address.

In the present, I'm not talking about the past, because we have learned from it, and always improved from season to season, the rules are finally at a stage where we don't have to deal with them anymore, everyone understands them as we meant them to be(thanks to Noto), the admins decided a bunch of new things this season, the structure works, the simple FFA ladder is huge FUN, but it's also obvious that the other ladders aren't as fun as they are supposed to be.

As we do it always from season to season since 4(!) years now, we try to improve and I have already a lot of new ideas where we can solve this fundamental issue of "thinking" a lot of players have nowadays, and I really hope the ideas I have can change the attitude how everyone plays a cb. The goal would be, like the FFA ladder has achieved, you play a cb instead of normal games.

Try your luck with the league you are working on with Eight, Alaric, maybe then you will also be able to understand that in a true democracy you have different opinions  and that you can't have the absolute power in your hand at the same time and call it a democracy. I'll continue to work and improve this league because it is far away from dead.

Regards,

Mauti

well spoken, lion

I think you misunderstand what I meant. What I meant was to say that tying the league to the name of one clan or one person limits it's life span automatically. That's all I meant by "owned by the public". There still needs to be a strict hierarchy of power that actually governs the league, but the league's name cannot exist in the ownership of one person/clan. That allows people to come and go and not worry about what is being done in their name after they leave.

You're goddamn right I'm disappointed. Running a league doesn't have to be this hard. You shouldn't have to fight personalties every day of the week just to get shit done. You shouldn't have to put up with the bitching and complaining of the noobs who want to win at the cost of fun.

Solutions to these problems have already been presented. The majority of admins were in favor of these changes. Why weren't they enacted? Political Bullshit. Which is exactly all this league is today: Political Bullshit. And I, for one, am sick of it and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

And again, if you hadn't deleted it, all that would be there in the record. So spare me the psychoanalytic bullshit, you haven't "figured me out" you're just repeating what I said in the thread you destroyed.

OK, now I realize it's hard, but please TRY to fucking listen this time. I AM NOT WORKING WITH EIGHT ON A NEW LEAGUE. I haven't even talked to him THIS YEAR.

Again, you're just proving my point that it's all politics. It's all about who's idea it is and not the idea itself.

Now, you can take this league and shove it, you ignorant asshole. I've tried my best to help you, but you seem bent on destroying yourself. Fuck you Mauti, you've ruined the best thing that ever happened to mac gaming.

completely wrong. there was never a poll which hasn't been enacted although it had a majority. the polls u're talking about did NOT have a majority.


don't even try that, Alaric... Mauti is not at all repeating. the thread does still exist and can be made visible if necessary to prove that u're wrong.[/color]

For the record: Alaric got a 48hour ban for spamming all forum parts. Only his reply that was posted in the right thread wasn't removed.

Alaric,

it's not about politics, it's about fun tactical games and clanbattles. Alright, now I understand what you wanted to say me with owned by the public.

Unfortunaly it seems that my post was so bad, mad, sad that you have to attack me personal, further as Civic has already pointed out few things you are saying aren't entirely true, so I won't respond to them.

You are always talking about, that you tried to save the league - and that's probably the reason why you try to damage it now!? We have never refused to talk, you had the chance as admin to bring in many points and even to get them written down in the rules, like many other admins brought up votes etc...

It was you who retired and as a consequence gave up the possibility to change something.

'Nuff said.

Good night,

Mauti

lol....I think he made it pretty clear in his post that he wasn't going to be coming back anyway.[/size]

Well, there are a few issues that need to be resolved, that's for sure.  Although to be honest these are things that should be voted on with the community and not left up to a few biased people to make the decisions for us.  Instead, they should be trying to convince all of us to agree to their side of the issues and we should vote on it in the end.  

As for Mauti making this his own league, well, to be honest it is his league.  He took the initiative to make it, and he deserves the credit for it.  I think the problem with this is that since everyone sees DAMN on it, they assume that it is all Mauti, and I can see where he has made some differences with trying to put the running of the league in the court of the players.  Although it seems that these people that are here to represent us are in fact having a little too much power in that sense.  My concern is that I was under that assumption that the admins for the league were here to enforce the rules that we must play by and to vote on issues that were some concern because even though these rules are, or were somewhat lacking at the time.  My main concern about this season is that it seems that some admins, you know who you are, are trying to make your own version of the rules and not following procedure.  Even if a rule had to be adapted for certain reasons, a lot of these admins decide to put it upon themselves to make a ruling on this before even voting on the issue, thus making the clan that opposes the idea think that they will be fucked if they dont follow this rule when in fact it should be something for the admins to decide upon.  That is the main problem that I see.  I mean just look at the shit we had to go through with an admins attempting to abuse his powers when both of our clans agreed on a simple issue!  I think it's just crap that we cant at least be given the chance of trying to finish anything on our own time without a biased admin trying to stop us from doing so with nothing but his twisted version of what an admin is allowed to do.  

So obviously I believe that there should be a set of rules that an admin must adhere to as well.  This way ensuring that something like this does not happen, and if it does then something can be done about it.  We have all these rules for the BL, but in reality there is really little written down for rules for the admins to adhere to.  This is where the idea of setting up a topic for the forum, dedicated for all clan members to throw down some ideas and rules that the admins should adhear to.  If anyone replies to those ideas then their post should be deleted.  The forum should only be setup for the ideas themself, and only have Elan or Mauti be able to edit the posts in that area of the forum.  Give a deadline for all these ideas to be posted in this area.  Then at the end of the deadline everyone should vote on each idea for rules for the admins.  Then at that time whatever rules are voted in are rules that admins should adhear to.  This will help guide some of the admins from taking their own initiative on trying to break rules and use their power incorrectly.  Admins are here to help us solve issues for the common good of the league.  Also to enforce the forums and make sure that people are being heard and not abusing the issues.  But what really stops admins from abusing their power?  Well the chairman is a great idea that Bucc came up with and for that I have to agree that it can work, but in reality there should still be rules written down to prohibit certain behaviors of admins.  By doing that it will limit the issues that admins can do and if they break those rules, then they should be held accountable.  

:MoD:Saberian

And what happens if the chairman abuses his power?

Sab.. there are admin rules writen down in the Admin area of the forum... Mauti has the list posted there so all admins can see them... So yea.. they do have rules but I dont know what they are anymore sene I'm have not been an admin for the past season...

We should get to see the admin section.

You know, if this was a democracy I would agree with you. The fact is that the admins are present to provide input from their clans, to set up a chain of command, and to make up the jury by which delinquent clans are judged. I think you know that a jury does not have it's deliberations made public, and nor should this body. If you want to know something, ask your admin. If you admin isn't telling you what you think your clan should know, replace him. I do not answer to you or any other member of BTs GS, I am the input from the MoD clan.

When a juror is out of line, the judge replaces him. Thats where Mauti and BFG come in. They cannot change the verdict of the jury nor can they vote, but they can tell the jury what the choices for a verdict are.

This is, I think, the real problem. Lawmakers have their actions made public. Admins are sometimes lawmakers. However, juries and the behind the scenes area of courtrooms are not made public. If your admins are judging a clan, they should not be open to public scrutiny. Not even the crazy protected freedoms of the USA allow this. If you want our decisions regarding new rules made public, you may have some grounds to stand on. Regardless, votes on rule violations can not and will not be made public.

Wow, hold on just a minute!  Admin are not there to provide input from their clan.  Not every clan has an admin in the BL.  Any person in the BL should be able to come to any BL Admin and put forth input for the way the BL should be run.  And yes, you do answer to every member of the BL, not just to your own clan.  I don't know where you got your thinking, but it looks like someone has told you that you are there partly to look after the best interests of your clan.  That is not true, your SOLE job is to look after the best interests OF THE ENTIRE BATTLE LEAGUE.[/size]

GS is exactly right. As a Battle League Admin it's your responsibility to answer to EVERYONE in the Battle League, and to provide input from not just your clan, but from anyone. It's your responsibility as a Battle League Admin to vote on situations in a way that is not what's best for your clan, but what is best for the entire league.

If you didn't know that, then I think that there probably are other admins that may also feel this way, and if that's the case, then that would be a huge problem.

Aramarth... you couldn't be more wrong. And if you continue to hold steady in your opinion that you are an admin to do nothing more than represent the opinions of your clan, then I would ask for your resignation.

Really it is BS to say Admins speak for their clan. They are supposed to speak in the interest of the community and those who they agree with. And when facing the community unbias as a admin for the BL.

I think you all misunderstood me. The clan I represent has nothing to do with how I vote. My identity as a clan member is used to determine who I am responsible to speak up for. If Brutha has an idea, it is my job to present that idea. Brutha cannot post in the admin section, so that is why it is my job. I am not, and refuse to be, a tool at the disposal of just anyone. Your admins are not your slaves.

In my jury model, admins are expected to rule impartially. Being a clan member has nothing to do with this, quite obviously.

Answer to everyone? Like hell. If I choose to disagree with Civic on an issue, how is it anyone's business? In such a situation, I answer to other admins and to Mauti for my conduct, but beyond that, the rest of you can step off. If you choose to disagree with me and agree with Civic, that does not mean that I am not doing my job.

Maybe it is your wording that throws me off, but I just plain disagree that I answer to everyone. As long as I follow the rules, no clan other than MoD has the right to give me shit. That is what I mean, and no more. Shouting for my resignation and assuming incorrectly that I hold my admin position for the advantage of my clan is very insulting and wrong.

No I think its your wording that throwing us off. And that part of the prob wit hthis league right now. The mentality of.. I know I'm right.. but you guys just can see why mentality. That statemnt alone shows the arrogance that makes peeps distrust the admins sometimes.


You represent the whole comunity.. The whole comunity can give you shit if you do something that the comunity as a whole does not agree with you.. Not just your clan. I remeber when we were slected as admins.. it was b/c the admins were the most respected players in there clan. The ones who ried to fllow the rules. As an admin.. Not everyone has to agreee with you.... But that does not mean that only your clan can give you shit when things dont go there way. Your clan should be the last group to give you shit sence they should stand behind the choises you make. So as an admin you must look out for the comunity as a whole and what best for them.. not just one small group.

We can give shit to admins who do stupid things, no matter what clan they "represent".

You ARE the tool of everyone.  Your clan, me, or anyone else in the Battle League should be able to come to you to present an idea.  I just love how admins want to sit above it all, with this "I'm on a different level than everyone else attitude."  In a way, you are our slaves.  I have nothing against you personally Ara, but you have your thinking about this admin thing all wrong.[/size]

I agree GS.

we'll now u guys go OFF topic, what u are complaining for is the admins and their power. not how we can get the BL to work better.

are you guys (Snipe, GS, Myst) trying to say that we need better admins?

Stripes....... Maybe that is what they are saying.. it is not off topic... The topic started off as an admin abusing power prob that alaric was pointing out in a now locked thread and the continued abuse of power in this thread be locking the other one. (not flaming the admins just stating what the threads were about in hopes stripes will see that its not real off topic.. but tring not to go off topic myself in doing so)

Do you honestly believe that I close my mind to your ideas? That is what I am reading here.

I don't have any problem working for the best interests of the league, as you should well know. That is really the only reason I took this job. You waste your fire when you aim it at me.

Let me paraphrase to help you avoid flaming me for yet another round. The only point I disagree with you on is the statement "I answer to EVERYONE as an admin." The phrase there is detrimental, and unkind. Especially when it is waved in my face as if I haven't been doing it all this time. I don't have any beef working for you, but to answer to someone is to place them in a position of authority over you. You aren't in charge of me, Mauti is.

I challenge you to go back and look through my posts. Use the link on the user profile screen to call up the last hundred or so. You won't find me working for MoD, you will find me working for the betterment of the league. And the next time you decide to gang bash someone on this forum, try to pick your target properly. People like you, abusing this forum, are just as much a league problem as poor leadership.

And neither do you apparently. The last time I checked, Mauti set the rules and not GhostSniper. Before you tell me what my job is, know what youre talking about. Since you seem to have no short term memory, this is what I said:


Nowhere do I say what you accuse me of. "Input from my clan" is merely a reference to the fact that I have the responsibility to tell other admins the ideas of my clanmembers. If you have an idea, the rules clearly state the chain of command which is in place for you to present it with. You talk to your admin, your admin talks to the group of admins, the chairman goes and tells Mauti. That is the chain of command, something which I would think you understand, Mr. Military. If you are in the third infantry division, you do not complain to the CO of the first division when you want somethign fixed. You talk to the CO of your unit, the third.

This is ALL I meant, and anything beyond that is you gentlemen misquoting me.

this is another example of something that was a good aide and got fubar real fast, clan admins


if i remember correctly, the admins were being chosen due to how respected they were in the community and for general level headiness.  now, since nobody wanted to offend one clan over another or perhaps give one clan leverage over the rest, one admin from each of the top clans were chosen.

never was it said that they were to represent their clan's interest, rather the 1 admin from each clan thing was supposed to PREVENT that.  each BL admin is just as responsible to the entire community as any other.  

yea, if brutha comes to ara, then ara should present the idea, but brutha should also be able to go to civic, or KoP or any other admin and it should be presented as BRUTHA's idea, not ara's, not mod's but brutha's.

just because you are in a clan does not mean that  you are supposed to represent you own clan's intreats. that is EXACTLY what was drying to be prevented by this system

a refresher course for those of you who have not read the BL rules in a while as to the (thoroughly broken) chain of command present here at DBL
(taken directly from the damn bl rules page, points 6 and 7 removed edited for relevance reasons)


*DAMN Battle League Command Structure
1.???? Chain of Command - (Mauti <=> Elandrion) <=> Chairman <=> Admins <=> Community

2.???? The *DAMN Battle League (*DBL) ? Lead by *DAMN Mauti and *DAMN Elandrion. *DAMN Mauti is the founder of the *DBL. *DAMN Elandrion is responsible for the *DBL scripts.

3.???? The Administrating Chairman (Chairman) - The Chairman has the function to enforce the Admin guidelines, to solve Admin-related issues, give out warnings to Admins, and may even suspend or ban *DBL Admins if violations reoccur. The Chairman is also a moderator of the *DBL Admin Zone and can merge, split, etc threads if the need arises. DO NOT send questions about CB?s or rules directly to the Chairman.? They will not be answered.

4.???? The Administrators (Admins) ? They are the center of the *DBL.? Their responsibilities include enforcing the *DBL rules, solve CB-related issues, to help with script questions, and more. They are the interface between the *DBL and the community.? The *DBL Admins can also be found playing in the *DBL, so you will often find them online in GameRanger. If you have any questions or problems, please ask in the *DBL Forums. DO NOT send questions about CB?s or rules directly to Mauti or Elandrion.? They will not be answered.? Also, the Admins reserve the right to handle violations of these rules on an individual basis, which may contradict the printed consequences outlined in these rules.
5.???? The Community ? You are playing in the *DBL, which means you are also part of the *DBL. If you have any questions or suggestions for improvements, please post them in the *DBL Forum.


if you will direct your attention to points 4 and 5, you will notice no mention of any rules of where the community is to report to OTHER than the admins in general... it is just a given that the 'clan admin' would be easiest to reach, right?

also, if ara's chain of command was correct, than a good 80% of the clans are left out in the cold because they have NO representation in the admin structure

it's thinking like this that has created the fragmented us verses them community that we are dealing with now as opposed to the  good of the many philosophy that was present back in the r6/rs days

People who admin for their clan only and not answer to the greater good need to step down, or really reconsider what they are doing. It's also a piss off to see that most admins don't even reply to threads like this. Some of which I've never seen post in this section. What's up there?

Fuck, there that is again. I never said I favor my clan over another. I did not say that.

GS, how do clans without admins give input? Sure, they can come to me. Thats not a problem at all. As I said, for about the 5th time I think, I merely object to the notion that my role as an admin is subservient to absolutely anyone. No one is or has been in any danger of my not listening. I just have a real problem with being told what my job is by anyone in the league. That is Mauti's place alone.

You see GS and Brain, I never said that someone in another clan cannot come to me. I merely said that MoDs can. You attribute meaning between the lines, which I'll admit could be there, but it isn't in this case.

Ara, you seemed to have changed you mind multiple times during that post. Let me attempt to get this straight. You want to represent you clan, yet you will listen to others, but you want to answer to mod, not anyone?

lol....Yeah, I heard the same thing....thought I was at a John Kerry convention there for a minute....   ;)

How about a George Bush commercial GS. Half the time they support the wrong side.

And thats the point i was pointing out the second time... The point of you worded yor stement in a way that made it seem (to the rest of the comunity) that you are only looking out for your own clan. When I pointed that out.. You said.. Well You guys need to reword what you are saying b/c The Way I put it was right.. That made you sound realy arrogant realy fast.. sence it was most of us who were tring to see what you were tring to say. I was tring to see if thats what you mean by your first statemnt on the matter or what.. but instead you turned it around as the rest of us flaming you .. wich in turn just proved the point i was amking further abot how and why things are falling apart.

now let me recap.

You first post on this matter made it seem to us that you were only an admin for your clan (by the way you worded your statement) We pointed that out. then you said.. that you must be understanding us wrong and we need to reword how we pt it.. when it was you we were tring to understand. When we told you that you blew it more out of porportion making it seem to the rest of us that your first statemnt was true

Now when i was an admin (in |GM| .. anything that my clan asked me to do.. I told them to go to another admin b/c I cant deal with things from my own clan...... now when i joined BTs I had seen in the last season that the rest of the admin (not all but most of them)would argue for there clan in the admin ducussions dealing with there clan... So even hough i didnt have a say in the outcomes.. I still tring to make my points in the threads dealing with BTS... just like alot of the oher amdins were doing for there own clans.. But I never did it b/c they asked me to.. And anyone will tell you (who was in a clan during that time) that if they had a prob they could come to me.. I could either fix it fast (removing players from roster if there leader was not around, deleateing double posted CB's, etc...) or I would talk to other admins online at the time..... .who most of the time came down to civ, flies, bucc occationaly, and mabe one or 2 others... funny thing is I remeberone of the points about having so many admins was to make sure there was enough online at all time to make quick desisions.. but normaly there were no more the 2 admins on at any given time.. where where the rest of the 13 admins.. who knows.... I know a few others were online.. typhy and some others.. but if you asked them o help out.. I got the normal.. Im  not a GhR admin.. I'm an AA admin.. go ask someone else.

But ara.. i think you need to reword your post (original post) in a way that does not make the comunity feel that you are biased in any way.. I know that you do help other clan... but your post make it look like totaly the oposite.

If it's a mistake reword it and let's move on.

Yes and no?  I would think one of the reasons for having Admins from the top clans, quite a few I might add, is that those same top clans harbor the majority of the players active in the BL itself.  I know what you're trying to say in regards to an Admin not having true clan affiliation when administrating, but I think the current system was instated to help represent the majority of the community, which is/was represented by the current Admins.

In a system where you are looking for less clan affiliation, the Admin team should be made up of respected individuals regardless of which clan they happen to be a part of, but this is not the way it is now.  Maybe that's how it was "back in the day", but I think it's pretty clear that a clan's interest is pretty much brought to the table by their representing Admin.

If the community really wants Admins who represent them, why not simply have a poll to vote on the top people for the job?  The first vote could have tons of people, but then you could have run off "elections" with a second or third vote.  I think this community is small enough to know who would and would not do a good job, and reputation would obviously be the biggest platform.  Just a suggestion of course, but it might avoid some of the sentiment against clan affiliation.  This of course would be highly similiar to Elementary School Government elections.  Pick the prettiest girl and the guy who can kick a ball the furthest.

.::|N| Noto

well i did suggest that:

the Chairman had to not be IN A CLAN ( but i still think a guy like BFG is doing pretty good work)

a moderator must not be an admin or only in battle league forum ( its why i am not a moderator i asked Mauti to remove me from moderators when i became admin)

only 1 admin/moderator/chairman per clan

need --->some<---- admins that are not in a clan

also something that record actions made by admins  ( thats Elandarion's work ) to make easier the work of our dear Chairman

I don't think you need to have admins away from clan's because 95% of the time they will be detached from what the clans are thinking. It's just a matter of the admins being honorable enough to not solely look out for their clan. When you become a admin you need to be responsible enough to answer to whoever questions you. Admins answer to the players because the players have to follow the final decisions. If a admin is solely looking out for their clan and that affects a vote that should have gone to the other side. I'm going to say this in bold:

[/b]

i completely agree.

admins aren't here for their clans -only-... we are mainly here for the community.

Thank you civic. Now get Ara on the same page.

This just about sums it up, all of this started because Ara simply misworded something.

The only reason that it's gone this far is because Ara's trying to defend him self against about 6 attackers. When you're arguing against that many people, you tend to make mistakes.

That said, I think this issue is taking away from the real problem. New admins would only foul things up more. What we need is stability. It's time for everyone to put aside any problems they may have with the current admins, and do what's best for the league.

Get off Ara's back. He's been a damn good admin, I think most of us can agree on that. Let's not make a big issue out of a mere miswording.

Then let him correct himself. Until I hear from him I will assume he means what he said.

Then assume it, but bitching at him over something this minor is a complete waste of his and your time.

Corrupt admins are worth my time.

Now this calls for an explanation, what do you mean corrupt? When in Aras time as an admin have you seen him being biased? When has he voted in favor of :MoD: and not in favor of all clans involved? You claim...actually you accuse him of being corrupt without giving an explanation. His words were badly chosen in the first post, but all have moved on except you. So, this makes me wonder if you think for the best of the league at all. To me it seems that you just want to take him out.

The question was if an admin was here for his clan or not. Yes and no, an admin represents the player in the league, his clan and others. Simple as that.

Corruption is Bad.

Absolute Corruption is Kinda Neat.   ;)

Hence why you like Bush?  ;)
Ok, it was a cheap shot, but it screamed out to be exploited. Apologies in advance.

The funniest thing to me about this entire thread is that as an admin I may just be the most effective on staff. I try to treat everyone as a friend as I am sure both eight and typhy can tell you. I listen to everyone. Yet the length of typing here is an accusation that I serve only MoD and not the community.

There is a lot of bad wording and bad reading that was done in this thread, thats pretty obvious. I think the important part is for you gentlemen to understand that I do not favor MoD over other clans during my admin duties. Heck, I was an .::|N| member and a [one] member longer than MoD, and I don't see you complaining about my favoring them.

People like you, GS and Mysterio, are looking for someone to beat over the head. I do not think I am bragging when I say that I should be the last guy on your list. I don't know if I have ever seen such irony. No one on gameranger had a bad word to say about me until I became an admin... A few months later, I must obviously be the bad guy. Neither of you has anything to suggest that I am not doing my job, but a few lines of text that I typed after my bedtime apparently gave you all you needed to call me corrupt.

Put a sock in it. If I was corrupt, this thread would have disappeared the very second that you first started fussing at me.

Well I would beat Civic over the head, but he seems to be saying the right things. Your mistake wasn't read between the lines. It was a statement that I didn't like to hear. Now we know it wasn't meant to sound that way so I can't say much.

You could apologise for calling me corrupt with no grounds other than our apparent inability to communicate...

I don't intend to you were corrupt in my view at the time because you put mod's interest first according to you yourself. I see nor reason to say any apology for your disability in the area of communication..

Hello folks... Just thought i would stick my head around the door briefly and see what this fun old post is all about... It looks like one i should have been about for when this all stirred up - alas for reasons outside of my controll as im sure you will appreciate meant i couldn't be... blame the transit van driver ;)

Briefly everything is in the rules paragraph on the *DAMN command structure - brain has copied and pasted it in on the previouse page.

As the Chairman im here to make sure that the Admins do the best job they can and don't cross the line. They have clear guidlines and rules when dealing with issues that they must follow and im really just acting as 'big brother' of the admin section making sure that things go smoothly. I drop the odd piece of advice when can if i feel i have a solution or way of helping the Admins deal with problems or issues that arise.

If five or more admins feel i have abused or missused my 'powers' then mauti has made it very clear they have to do nothing more than email him with the reasons why and the chair can be suspened etc... I hope they would come to me and raise their issues before it ever got to that - but just to clarify i wasn't granted invunrability and keys to *DAMN ;) I don't vote on any Admin issues, i have no say on the matters etc..

If members of the comunity have seriouse issues with the behaviour of an Admin then i am here to take those complaints... hell think of me as a janitor/caretaker come  customer services.
If you do have problems feel free to send me an email or give me a shout - i know i hvn't been about and wont be for a while but when im back on my feet and the seasons kick up im always around.

Oh and regarding the whole clan thing? Admins should be here to feed the thoughts and feelings of the community to a decision making table. We cant have a table that fits the many hundreds of players we have. So like a goverment we have the elected representatives. When i was an admin i regarded myself as an admin for every single clan member that was active on the BL... be they a one week old clan or a three year old clan - the fact that i was/am a member of :MoD: or the little green men appreciation society makes no difference. The Admins are clan members becasue it is the clans that make this BL... what point would there be to having an admin who had no knowledge or experience of actually being 'in' the BL?

I gotta go rest. sorry if most of this dosn't make any sence...not very with 'it'

Mkkay that cleared up your job and what the admins should do. When you read the thread you saw what was wrong.

Fuck apologizing to you, Aramarth.  You spelled apologize with an "s".  Traitor...

 ::)

.::|N| Noto

 ;)

THE PROFANITY!

Holy crap I did.... :o

Welcome to the dark side, Ara. Thats the way, write like all civilised people do.

Gj Brutha, on letting the thread die.

this might be a little old now, but i had my period and didnt want to reply while i was pms'ing. i get awfully nasteh.

I had the pleasure of being in a clan w Aramarth and he had my "vote" for admin. so did most if the ones that became admins. I know that he does not take sides and always tries to push thing forward and improve whatever he is a part of. i think MOST ppl know this. but when "wording" becomes a problem and "sorry" isnt visible enough for some - well then it seems that there are a few head choppers out there.
and Mysterio, dude. how about letting things go? i dont know ya and u might be a cool dude, but to me, you just sound like an agressor that looks for a fight. this is not the market place and a crowd is screaming for someones head to get chopped of m8.(could be that its your "wording that makes it sound like that) it is a place for fun, and that goes for the admins as well. i wouldnt wanna touch that job if i got paid for it.  over the time that ive been a part of the BL i have seen that it has become more and more agressive, its not a good direction.

Although i am all up for change and new blood. i wouldnt mind seeing a poll during off season. there are changes - new clans - new active members - new voices. pehaps we should poll new ones that want a role as admin? or maybe ppl are just too dishearted of all the crap these guys get that it has no purpose.

anyway, thanx for the hard work you guys put it.

You know, had you worded that differently maybe I would have let it slide, let you feel like you've made a difference. But seeing as you didn't I'm just going to use a Jerry Springer clich?:

Rampage, you don't know me. Shut up.

and since you didnt either, u just prove my point

*worded myself w a soft and feminine tone*

No, you worded that in a very stupid way that was looking for me to respond in a harsh way. If you are too blinded by friendship to see what was wrong with what he has original said. I don't care what he meant he said it and never corrected himself without blaming the fault elsewhere.

no, wrong. the post was not intended to "lure" you to respond in a harsh way. i was airing my opinion. plain and simple.
but i am on the other hand blinded by his sexehness. but did he word himself badly/complicated/educated? yes. but it wasnt very hard to see through or read between the lines.

have a good one

<shakes head at this babble and walks out>

Excuss me while i abuse my admin powers for a second and lock this thread guys, sorry but it really isn't going anywhere and this is old, dead and unproductive.

feel free to complain  ;)