*DAMN R6 Forum

Okay, I had an idea today.....why aren't the votes that admins make made public?  I mean, not all of the discussions in the admin section, but just the actual vote.....what admin voted for or against a certain rule, problem, or whatever.  Even our congressmen's votes are public record....on any issue you can go and look how a certain person voted on anything.

So I propose that admins vote records be made public.  All this secrecy is a little annoying.

That is being discussed actually. ;)

i disagree. which admin voted for what in a topic should stay private... final decisions about topics will be made public as usual.

GS is crafty, I think he just wants to see who voted to ban us.

Muahahahahaha

Although that would have been a plus had this been in place at that time.....

I am not asking that voting records of the past be opened up....this would start from the time it was voted in, and would not be retroactive to the past.

um wasn't that posted and signed by each of the admins involved in that issue, and made as clear and open as possible?

The 'actual' vote is the one bit i think probably dosn't need to be done in public. there is nothing to stop the admins from making public how they feel, which would be obviouse from the discussion that hopuflly take place here. Obviously the more open and public the discusions are the better but when things come down to the final vote and decision making what advantage is their in them putting these votes in public?

Now that is the same problem we have now in the U.S. Congress....people think they can just vote any old way they want and not be held accountable for it.  Well, I believe this would make the admins a little more accountable for their votes.

What's wrong Civic?  Do you have something to hide that you don't want the rest of the Battle League to see?

it'd only encourage flaming.

(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/so.gif)

You can stand behind your decissions right? why not make it public? thats the way it works in real life.. . (parliaments and such)

How would it encourage flaming? Please enlighten us.

It's called ACCOUNTABILITY.  Why all the secrecy?  Makes me think you have something to hide if you don't want your actual vote made public.

i always stand behind my decisions. but it?s my choice if i want to make it public or not... we?re not politicians.

just last seasons finals... do u remember it? the vote of certain admins became public... the rest is history (flaming, flaming, flaming between several people). that?s why I am careful...

Exactly my point....it shouldn't be YOUR CHOICE if you want it to be made public or not.....all votes should be made public.  And who cares if someone flames you for a vote you made!  Hell, if you can't take the heat (great pun here) then stay out of the vote!

If the votes are public, and an admin has to make a vote against their friends, they might change their vote just so they don't offend their friends, and the end result is an inaccurate voting session. Also, it WOULD encourage flaming. I can see it now. People will be sending death threats and constantly flaming any Admin who votes against his/her clan. I can think of a few people who already accuse the Admins of voting against them, and hate them because of it. Imagine if they actually found out who it was. I think votes should remain anonymous, but perhaps the number of admins who voted one way or another could be released. Think ya already do that, though. Anyhoo. Just my 2 cents.

news flash civic, congress has the choice to make any vote they want secret, but they DON'T they keep the voting record public.

your reasoning here is shaky at best. flaming can be controlled via moderation. always has always will.  the community has NOTHING to lose from hearing the admin debates. the only thing you will lose is that sense that nobody knows exactly what hell is going on in the admin forums. that fact has spawned much of the unnecessary hatred between people here, is partially responsible for the BTS MP5 issue, is also partially responsible for the elitist 'i know best' attitude of some admins, and much confusion in the community because they do not know what is being discussed and voted on.

so here's the thrown gauntlet civic. since you didn't do this last time (MP  finals thread, you only leached off of flies answers, and never posted anything lengthy that you personally wrote), i doubt you haver the guts to meet anyone on a head to head flameless post battle, but here is your chance to prove me wrong. pull out facts that prove me wrong. you've got a keyboard. Use it to type them out instead of "i agree with flies" all the time.

you're move civic, i'll be waiting for it

-Brain

--off topic potential flamebait removed--  (Alaric)

I think admin voting in the public area would be a favoritism spectacle, not a good idea.

Pardon me Rapid, but aren't literally all the admins of your issue now retired or replaced? Oh dear me, they are. Looks like you are full of an outdated arguement then. Take your rant somewhere that it applies, which obviously isn't here.

The whole point of having moderators in the first place is to have someone decide who is right or wrong, without the endless arguments from the people involved. It's not our decision to decide if our moderators are right or wrong. They are appointed initially because they will be able to make the least biased, most fair decision possible.

damn aramarth, had you tried understanding my post, you would've seen my intention was to bring up past issues in the BL where Mods discussed matters in privately, then came to a "conclusion".  A couple of these conclusions made no sense whatsoever, so it would be to my and my clan's best interest to see how these decisions were made.  It'll clear up a lot of things for me and everybody involved and spectating.  Besides, weren't these decisions that were made "fair", so there should be no shame in showing how they came about, right? :o

SNiPE, that's  your point of having moderators.  Anybody in their right mind, knows a Moderator not only there to mediate, but also to carry himself/herself with honesty and respect.  More or less an example for all to follow.  Any time they take their personal feelings, and use them to get their personal revenge vs those that they personally don't like in BL related matters for example, it's simply wrong.  All that can be avoided by smart Moderators, that have np being honest and open how they come about their decisions.  Especially, since it won't involve personal feelings, meaning they would have no reason not to share them publicly.   That's the point of having Moderators share voice their views publicly for all to see and learn from.  Hell, it'll help for some of those "mistakes" to not be repeated!  That's the point of Public Discussion of issues.  We don't know if they're being fair, if we can't see what they're saying! :o

Again SNiPE, take that silly quote off your signature, because we all know who got owned when me and you CB'ed each other.  (You, 8-4-1 when you were in ?cE and 6-4 when you were AgT)  That poor attempt at flaming at me, is your weak attempt at feeling better about getting owned in every CB you've had against me.  Certainly not necessary, but again, probably the therapy you need. :o ;D  Now pls, act your age...  

*sigh*

Wait, I thought Mauti had stopped letting people flame each other in their signatures...   Apparently not, especially since he's been flaming for couple months with that sig...

ps: can a moderator pls delete the post above this one.  Made a mistake.  Thanks.

Rapid, it is not my intent to flame you with that quote. I am simply showing that AcE is a well respected clan, and that there have been instances in which people had so much respect for their abilities that they felt it would be in their clan's best interest not to cb against them. It was just coincidental that you were quoted in this particular instance.

All due respect rapid, but this is old matters to which the vast majority if not all  BL Admins have had nothing to do with.  Therefore to my knowledge there is no human way that the Admins can in some way give you the answers to your questions. Perhaps aproching those admins involved in such matters at the time would be more helpfull, but as it is water under the bridge i would leave it be now.

Im sure in a perfect world everything would be discussed over cups of tea and biscuits. However this unfortunatly is not the case. A lot of discussions have to be done in private, to keep it free from spam, flaming and useless posting how exactly could decsions be made by an entire BL community?

BL Admins are not unmoderated. The idea that decisions are made without check, that people can run wild and decide what they like is simply unfounded.

However I totally understand that the issue with the lack of communication between BL Admins and the community. That is somthing that can im sure be addressed by the admins.

Now back on-topic. :) I think Rapid's posts prove why making Admin votes public is a bad idea. It would just lead to confrontations, threats, intimidation, and they'd be constantly bothered over trivial matters. There is no need for it to be public other than to give people a chance to take cheap shots at the mods and give them hell for not voting the way a person wants them to vote. I haven't heard any good arguments on why admin votes should be public. It'll just make these big arguments escalate further, and cause even MORE pointless threads on BL issues. Bad times! I don't think it's a good idea to put an admin/moderator in an uncomfortable and vulnerable position. They get enough disrespect as it is. Speaking of which, certain individuals should drop this bias they have against mods. Relax.

>>>
quote author=BTs_GhostSniper
Now that is the same problem we have now in the U.S. Congress....people think they can just vote any old way they want and not be held accountable for it.  Well, I believe this would make the admins a little more accountable for their votes.
<<<

Sigh.

As usual we're seeing arguments that use contextually irrelevant examples as support.

I mean, come on.Take Ghost's logic to the logical extreme - no secret ballots in America. A democracy can't be democractic if everyone is looking over everyone else's shoulders when they vote! In his wetest wet dreams of authoritarian rule even Ghost should realize the sanctity of a secret ballot! It allows ppl to vote with their conscience, not with their fear.


BL Admin votes should be secret. It protects them from ppl like Ghost and me targeting flames and "sarcastic" threats of violence against those who vote against something we want.

Our hyper-competitivie natures are being taken in the wrong direction.  We shouldn't be looking for ways to undercut the authority of the admins so we can do more of what we want. We should be looking for ways to beat the other team on the field.

The BL works. The votes work. If you don't like the results, to paraphrase another authoritarian take-it-or-leave-it approach to these sorts of political issues ... if you don't like it leave the BL.

When did I say anything about "secret" votes in Congress?  I simply said that people in Congress vote any way they want and not be held accountable.  Not, they wont be held accountable because their vote was secret, but wont be held accountable because most people don't bother to look up how the person actually voted.

One again, Sixhits, you prove your lack of an ability to read.

Read your own post. It's implicit in your use of words.

You feel that Bl admins are not being held accountable for their votes.
You want future BL votes opened up to the public.
You cite Congress as an example where there is no accountablity, presumably to parallel your view of the BL.

You're right you never SAID anything about secret votes, but you are linking your arguments together: that BL votes are secret and should not be, because it limits accountablity with no accountablity in Congress for their votes.

It was seemingly obvious to me what you were saying: a comment on transparency of government.

So, then, if the issues are irrelevent to each other (secrecy and accountablity) why would you offer up Congress as an example of an unaccounable form of government? I seems to me that it's pretty accountable, at least in regards to partisan attacks on Sen. Kerry and his voting record.

Indeed, one need look no further than any public election to see evidence of faux accountablity in action - we might even call it a flame war.

But the BL admins are not elected by us. This is not a true democracy tho we get our say and those that run the BL have ours and their best interests at heart.

But what gets me going is seeing this crack down on the Admins seemingly because of an incident in which GHost's clan was heavily involved.

Ah, but maybe they SHOULD be.  ;)

Lol .... sure, elections .... if you want 14 yrolds running this thing.

if admins are elected it will be a popularity contest based solely on some stupid thing like how well you can cyber in the B&G or some shit.  we would not get any sort of representative spectrum of competent admins from this system.  

ALSO  clans should not just replace their admins with another member when ever they get tired of it and hand it off to a person with insufficient league and community experience. the job of admin is a difficult one and should not be handed out based on clan membership status or charity, but instead on actual qualifications such as experience and knowledge of the existing environment

Wow Brain, I never knew I had such a hard job! Maybe I should ask for a raise. ;) lol j/k

showing the vote count isn't a bad idea. showing a name next to the vote may be though.

Whip it out admins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D

What are you afraid of? :P

To be quite honest, the way the Battle League is set up, it is a democracy...a representative democracy. From what I can see, it seems like each clan has at least one representative in the quagmire that is now known as the BL moderatorship, thus allowing each clan a representative vote.

Hate to bring up old times and what not, but Ultimo and I always made our decisions known and we would take all that came with it, praise and flak, regardless of our decisions. If you honestly feel that peer pressure would make you change a vote, or that you were afraid of voting against a friend in public, perhaps you should step down as a moderator and allow someone else who won't be afraid to take your place.

I can honestly see no harm in being accountable for your votes...you should always be able to back up why you voted the way you did in anything you do in life. If backing up how you voted seems to be a problem, then perhaps you should learn to think for yourself rather than piggybacking on someone elses reason for voting why they did.

Just speaking from experience...

I'm with assassin on this one. An admin should not let his opinion be swayed so easily. He must think about the issue and make a decision based on facts and logic, not polls and opinions. If you can't back up your vote with facts and logic, why are you voting that way at all? I know that I plan to make it public which way I vote on every issue and why.

Mellow, if an admin can't take Rapid's rantings then why are they an admin? We cover wearing Rapid-level flame retardant clothing on the first day.

Also, if things were to get more out of hand on a wider scale, we do have more moderators in this section than anywhere else... we could start moderating this section strictly like the GG.

Well..this responce is not to alaric alone, but to all that feel that public voting is a good thing.

Well, as I dont know rapid, i cant be sure, but it has been told me that he has been permabanned from GR(if so...nice job) but he is one. Trying to fight flaming in a forum is a lot easier here than in GR...sure you can allways block, but you cant get away from all what is said in B&G. I guess being an admin means you give up GR. Well...an admin should handle such, right? not really..an admin is doing a job that is not paid...out of pure idealistic motives. The admin(hopefully) is working for the best of the damn BL as he or she sees it. I am thankful that some ppl are actually willing to take on this job. But as for them being held accountable for what they do...what makes you think they are not? Just because you cannot attack every case you disagree in, does it mean that your clan's representative cant take care of that? Tell me, is congress run by some idiot that you talk to every day? Do you even think that a congressman reads every letter you send him? are you an idiot?(that would be the question if you answered yes on the one before this)

I say that admins should be able to discuss in private...and never reveal who voted on what. This way they are free to vote as their consience dictates without the fear of some lunatic hunting them down. We all have different oppinions...live with it...like some of us.

Give up GR because people are harassing you because of a vote you made? I'm sorry, I just don't see this as likely and/or possible. The reasons for which I have outlined above and will repeat again now.

1. You don't have to be an admin. It's voluntary.

2. You have to deal with other people's shit. That's the nature of the business. If you can't handle that, it's ok, just don't be an admin.

By the way, Brutha, just so you're aware, I am currently an admin. Your last post gave me the impression that you think I'm not.

Edit: Why do I even try?

Well, I was aware, not that it matters much here. As I said early in my post, it is a general post not adressed to any single person. I quoted from you because it seemed that most ppl in favor of public voting thought as you did.

I do not agree with that you have to deal with others shit, because we would then lose a lot of ppl that would make great admins due to them not wanting to deal with people yelling at them at every decision they make. Sure, it is ok and good to disagree at times, but ppl tend to get angry with others that do not have the same oppinions as they have. As you so nicely point out...it is voluntary( a point I made in my post as well....), and why loose the the ones we really want to admin the league because their votes go public. That is a scenario that can happen, because people in general are not to positive to having all their views and oppinions shown too all in public. We only have to go back to the BTs banning issue to see what happened there.....Admins involved in that decision playing on GR got insulted over PM by ppl they had never talked to.

This is not politics....it is a game. I hate to state the obvious but some ppl take this too damn seriously at times.

Oh and worth pointing out from Alarics post. I am not an Admin. Aramarth replaced me as the active voting Admin for the BL.



Spelled me wrong bud. ;)
doah sorry!

Oh, but this is politics related to a game. It's a league and there are some things (politics included) that you're just not gonna be able to avoid. Like any sport, people are gonna bitch at the umpires/admins. No matter what. That's just the nature of the beast. And as wise a decision maker as any person is, if they can't take the bitching, they just don't have what it takes to be an admin. That's one of the qualifications of admin status.

Jealous? I think so! ;D

I thought you were on vacation flies? Fishing not so good this season?

Well I, for one, can imagine imagine an annoying situation that might arise if there were to be public voting.  

Say I'm an admin and I vote NO on a particular issue, and it is made public.  Then I decide to go on GameRanger and play a few relaxing games.  As soon as I get on, I start getting PM's asking me why I voted NO, etc.  It isn't that I can't "take the heat", its just that I would like to be able to be online without all sorts of windows popping up all over the place asking me this and that.  

I know this could be a real issue because its happened before to me.  When I left my last clan I had everyone PMimg me asking me why I left.  It made me want to just create a new account and use a different name so I wouldn't be recognized.

So yes, an admin should be able to take criticisms and vote without fear of hurting feelings and whatnot, but when you have to start blocking people on GR who are trying to interrogate you, it just doesn't make sense.

Gabe, they do have a right to ask you why you voted the way you did. But they don't have the right to harass you. This is why evill created the "ignore" button, for those who don't like being pestered all the time. Personally, I don't believe in using the ignore button except in the most severe cases and even then only for a while. I am proud to say I don't have a single person on GR in my ignore list right now, and I plan to keep it that way.

I just this is just an extention of my personal policy to be as open and frank with people as possible.

At the end of the day I want to see th BL Admins treated with respect and the BL Players treated with respect.

If most ppl think that open votes will generate more respect for both Admins and Players then opening the votes up is fine by me.

I worry, tho, that as we are a community of various ages with various maturity levels and various points of views and goals, opening up the votes to general scrutiny will lead to more negativity heaped on the heads of the Admins. I can only say I've gotten this notion from watching the exchange over the recent banning of an exceptional clan for an unacceptable action (or lack of action).

If mutal respect is the goal then transparency seems like a good route to take. If you know what, why, and how someone voted mature people should be inclined to sympathy. The issues of contention should shift from "What are you hiding and why are you hiding it, Mr. Admin" toward "Why did this vote have to happen."

I just worry, as I've seen the attacks swing back and forth, that this community is not ready to appreciate the why's behind ppl's votes - even if fully transparent, even if you could read the mind of the voter. Because everyone has an agenda: everyone wants to "win" the vote, not benefit the community.

It's as clear as day: the community is not a mature place; it is a fun place. The presumptive maturity rests with the Admins. Admins are selected by the clans to represent them. The Admins in turn have a classic "rock and a hard place" sorta job. Good leadership is not easy. If we as a community constantly harp on each and every decision then people start attacking the Admins themselves rather than the problem the decision addressed. Which is just stupid. And I think open votes will just open up the Admins to more direct attacks.

It's not about whether someone can "back" their decision. They shouldn't have to be putting their ass on the line just to make a call. Do umpires take hours to explain why that pitch was a ball or a strike or why they kicked a player outa game? Should they have to?

No.

My elongated 2-cents.

Rapid a recitation of the checkered history of clan AK has no place in this thread. It's spam pure and simple.

Keep it short and sweet. Anything beyond that is lowering yourself to the level you accuse Rapid of maintaining. Spam perhaps, but are you one to judge?

Sixhits, i think you've just about hit every nail on the head in that post.

Elongated, but very vauable 2-cents indeed :)

My point in starting this thread was not that the admins would have to explain WHY they voted a certain way.  All I wanted to do was make their actual votes public.  Umpires?  You mean we don't get to SEE that he calls a pitch a ball or a strike???  I think we do.  That is my point.....I just want to see what admin said "yes" or "no" to each issue being voted on.....just like in Congress.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

Ghost has a point and I think this thread brought up a good question.

I know some reasoned that the BL admins should be like members of Congress who have to make their votes public and stand behind the reasoning involved in making that decision.  

I think the fundamental difference between the BL admins and members of Congress is rather simple.  The US is a Democratic Republic-- we vote for representatives who then make decision for us.  But in the end, the members of Congress who represent us are still bound to us and accountable to us becuase we get to decide whether or not they stay in office.

The BL is not a Democratic Republic.  The Admins do not need our approval to stay in office.  They are just a small administrative circle that have been 'entrusted' to do the right thing.  More like a Panel of Dictators who hand down rulings and we have to just accept them and like them.... or be banned, I guess.

There would be no reason for them to open up their discussions or votes or reasoning to us.  They are not accountable to us, we have no say.  It's like some Cuban peasant asking Castro why he made his decisions... it just won't happen.

Perhaps if the BL admins were voted to terms by the citizens of the BL, but that wont happen.

BTW, this topic is starting to look a heck of a lot like a campfire. This is your official comment from on high to keep on the topic of admin voting records, and leave the rest at the door.

 :-X
Admin's should have the freedom, and leisure to decide privately. We are not in danger of being opressed in anyway as might happen with the government. This is a game, it is meant to be fun. I support the secert ballot. To disclose ones vote is the admins decision alone.

Sry for the flame up top, thanks for deleting it Ara, I was wrong. Next time I'll pay more attention to Smokey the Bear ;)

Unless I'm mistaken the votes are public. You just don't get to see the actual breakdown of the votes.

So, you want to see the breakdown of the votes. You want to know who voted and how.

Explain to me if I'm wrong, but it still sounds like you want to open up the ballot box, rather than just see the result of the votes. How is this gonna make things like Bts's problems cease to occur? Accountablity means nothing unless it adds up to some real postive affect.


Another point I made was that, in my opinion, this whole "open up the votes" thing is only an issue because some of us have an agenda to get what that can't have in the ruling by changing the structure of how those rules are made. Presumably in order to affect change on future rules they won't like.

And that feels a lot like a which hunt: constantly nagging about how one admin or another voted one way because they always back that other admin ... it just strikes me as looking for reasons WHY they voted, then attacking those reason (valid or not), in order to discredit the vote.

But ppl seem to forget the vote still stands whether you win the PR campaign or not. And little have I heard from proponents of the "open viewing of votes" side that assures me they aren't simply looking for ways to make their slander easier.

We should be looking for ways to mullify your anst over the Bts vote, Ghost. Their should be honest communication between your boys and the admins, in general. I think that such a point has already been made, and that the concensious was that communication broke down.

That to me is the real nugget of concern. Rule must be abided by in order that we all ahve fun. But sometime rules get broken. And in breaking rules we need to talk about how to resolve the problem. And the problem ISN'T that a vote went against Bts. The problem is that BOTH sides, Admins and Bts, felt that the other wasn't listening and hence decided the other was in breach of what they thought of as "right".

How on earth will opening up the Admin's votes foster better communication? Should be be opening up all Clan internal conversations about every decision made? It certainly would be transparent. But it would be pointless. It would only fuel the fire.

This has nothing to do with the stuff that happened with BTs last season.  I'm not even asking that the votes that have previously been made be made public....I asked that it start from whenever it was voted in.

Also, I do not want this so I can slander someone.....that has nothing to do with it.  I simply want to see who voted yes and who voted no for each topic.  I again must ask the question....if so many admins are against this, just what do they have to hide?  Why all the secrecy?  If it were me, I would be saying "hell yes let's make the votes public."  But then I have very high Integrity and Honor, and would have no problem letting people see how I voted.  Of course that's just me.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

I said it before, but I will repeat it for you. The admins speak as one, and were our voting records published, it would look like we did not.
Besides, you can ask the admin from your clan how he voted. He is the one responsible to you. I couldn't look my clanleader in the face and tell him I wouldn't share my voting record. However, I don't see how you can ask that, as I do not represent you in particular.

Hold on a minute.....now it sounds like you are the representative of your clan.  Well, that should definitely not be the case.  You are a representative of the Battle League, and should not be answering to your clan or even your clan leader.  You should be doing what YOU think is the right thing, not what your clan leader thinks is the right thing.

You are grasping at straws... let me elaborate. For the purposes of making new rules, it was considered that the major clans each needed a vote... that is where the idea of one admin from each clan came from. If it is a rule arbitration, where we are interpreting rules, you're right, we aren't supposed to be "members of clans."

Even so, what about a congress model which everyone is so fond of? The state of Pennsylvania can elect whomever they darn well please, and Virginia can't say a thing about it. Now, these same senators represent the Country, and their States, at the same time. That is what I was trying to get at. The senator from PA is not answerable to you. The moderator from [01] is also not answerable to you. We answer to Mauti, the Chairman, one another, and our respective clans.

At the same time however remember Aramarth you are a representation of the community, and the underlining role of the admins are to aid the community, be it a member from the same clan or a guy who has just joined a 'two hour' clan.

At the same time mauti appointed these people as they were considered valuable members of the community who could both take this role and aid and inprove it. For the Admins to be answerable to every little quibble on any persons whim would i feel cause bloody chaos.

now you are arguing the true role of admins?  Maybe you should write rules for that too and have a vote that may be public or not in the secret admin forums.

For shits sake, just let it go.  This is getting insanely out of hand.  Just about every thread is locked and suggestions never go through because of endless bickering. Bah, what a waste

Let us all not forget that the Admins represent the community as well as the opinions of their own clan.  One of the purposes of having an Admin per clan was to get a true sense of what the clan-affiliated majority wanted from this league.  You should know how your clan leader voted because I would hope they would have consulted their entire clan before voting about anything.  It really isn't necessary to see who voted on what topics.  Perhaps the vote should be posted, such as "Blah Blah Blah Proposal passed 5-2".  This is not the U.S. Senate nor is it a true democracy.  As much as some of you would like to know how everything is done, it is not only unnecessary, but it would lead to many peripheral problems that I can forsee in the future.

.::|N| Noto

To Mauti and Elandrion:

Well, why don't we just let the majority rule and put it up for a vote to the entire Battle League?

I propose we have a Battle League-wide vote on this issue.  Should the Admins Votes be public or private?

lol GS. There is one problem, someone has to call the vote and organize it. Not to mention recognize the outcome. Only guys I can think of to do that are Mauti and Elan.

I know, that post I left asking for that was me asking Mauti and Elan to organize the vote....sorry, I should have been more clear who that was meant for.

GS, YabbSE polls are easy to defraud.

I was also thinking, on a topic more closely related to this thread, that the role of admins sometimes parallels that of a judiciary. When a panel of judges votes on something, their votes are made public as well as their thoughts and opinions as to why they voted the way they did.

There will always be somebody unhappy with the outcome of any vote. The best you can do is just explain the reasoning behind it.

As for the threat of continued and consistent harassment of admins. Both Evill and the BL have solutions to that problem. They're called bans.

Alaric, that's the first time the opening of votes up side has made sense to me. Comparing it to judicial rulings.

Only worry: if every vote must be backed by opinions that clarify their reasoning then the BL Admins are going to be doing a heck of a lot of busy work.

Well that isn't "opening up records" at all. That is merely asking us to post a supporting and dissenting opinion no the matter. That already happens sometimes, but I guess we could make it more formal and reliable.

Well yes and no.. its not like they don't exist in the forums so it would be a matter of just putting a statement up in the BL explaining how this decision was made and why. personally i think this would benifit both the community and the admins -  community dosn't need to know who specificy voted one way or another, but they do need to know why the issue was voted on and why the given conclusion was drawn.

Thanks

Ok, so something like the Supreme Court.

RULING: xy and z

A Supporting Opinion for xy and z.

and

A Discenting Opinion against xy and z.

No one is required to to write. One Admin pro writes the Supporting, one Amin against writes the Discenting.

This would satisfy me because it wouldn't force Admins to defend their vote: they'd have an advocate either way.

Those that have something to say will get a formal place to say it. Those that just want to vote will be allowed to just cast a vote.


thoughts?

sixhits, are you thinking of just summarizing the comments of the admins and stripping out the names?

when we vote now, we do generally put down a few brief comments on why we voted that way, we could just collect all those together and post that under a "supporting" or "dissenting" section, sans names. this would allow for the reasons for voting for and against it to be made public without the potentially divisive effect.

That's a great idea!

Here's what I was thinking, in case it matters:

For each Ruling made there would be three parts. The Ruling, a For Opinion, and an Against opinion. Each opinion would be written by a Named Admin.

For example:

Question before the BL: Can Sixhits be named King of the BL?
Ruling: No, Sixhits will not be named King of the BL.
For (in favor of Sixhits being named King of the BL)
  Written by :MOD: BFG - "Sixhits is smart, stable and a true genius.    
  He should be King."
Against (against Sixhits being named King of the BL)
  Written by alaric - "Sixhits is an idiot. He has no experience in the
   BL. He is incredibly contrarian. Besides, the BL is democratic and
   does not need a King."
Total Votes: Pro - 2, Against - 10

I'd expect most Opinions would be more robust that these silly examples.

Vocal Admins sould offer to write either the For or Against opinion. Admins who simply voted and didn't feel terribly strong about it either way wouldn't be forced to defend their views.

I think it's a good compromise.

I was thinking pretty similar only including all comments made in the vote thread with just the names removed.

Example:

--------------
Question before the BL: Should Sixhits be named King of the BL?

Ruling: No, Sixhits will not be named King of the BL

Comments in favor of Sixhits being named King of the BL:

• He's a damn hippie.
• He wears the right clothes.
• I'm his common law wife.

Comments against Sixhits being named King of the BL:

• He's a damn hippie.
• Kings are bad, uh, and stuff.
• No, Rapid should be made King of the BL. But Sixhits can be his queen.

--------------


This way all reasons for voting for and against are outlined. Also, much simpler from the admin side of things because we don't have to write our reasons for voting for and against a second time.



---changed formatting for easier reading

You've sold me, alaric.

Next question: would there be a public face on the Ruling? Continuing our example:

--------------
Question before the BL: Should Sixhits be named King of the BL?

Ruling: No, Sixhits will not be named King of the BL

Comments in favor of Sixhits being named King of the BL:

• He's a damn hippie.
• He wears the right clothes.
• I'm his common law wife.

Comments against Sixhits being named King of the BL:

• He's a damn hippie.
• Kings are bad, uh, and stuff.
• No, Rapid should be made King of the BL. But Sixhits can be his queen.

--------------

For questions of concerns regarding this decsion, PM alaric and :MOD: BFG

Normal procedure should be fine. When people have questions about a ruling they generally just open a thread and address it to all admins, I don't see why it should be different here.

The idea is to get the reasoning out while maintaining the solidarity, having questions directed towards a particular admin would undermine that.

If it's a legit question that should be fine. If it's flamebait, to the spam sewer-works it goes...

Cool. This seems like a real solution.

I agree. With Sixhits.  Amazingly.  lol