*DAMN R6 Forum

     Preface: These are some ideas we came up with in an effort to make the regular season more active by making the finals more accessible and exciting for all clans on the ladder.

1. At the close of the Battle League regular season, the finals are held. The finals will take the form of a single-elimination tournament with mandatory, scheduled CBs for all participants.

2. Any clan which is recorded as having played a minimum of four CBs during the regular season is eligible to play in the finals tournament. Eligibility of players is according to the standard *DAMN Battle League rules.

3. The overall structure of the tournament is based on the NCAA March Madness tournament or a Grand Slam tennis tournament. The number of brackets shall be dependent upon the number of participating clans. 16 clans is optimal, because in that case the tournament can be resolved in four rounds (two weekends at one round per day). This type of tournament can handle any number of teams through adding more brackets and/or using byes, so it's not necessary to limit the tournament to 16 clans. Adding another bracket will necessitate additional tournament rounds, however.

4. A tournament round is 24 hours. The first tournament round starts at 1200 NOON PST on "Super Saturday", so called because it's the day that has the highest number of CBs and serves to kick off the tournament. The tournament should be scheduled to take place on consecutive weekends. All CBs must started by MIDNIGHT PST on the day that CB is scheduled.

5. The participating clans will be seeded to determine the bracket structure. The seeding is based upon the standings in the Battle League rankings at the end of the season. The first-ranked clan will be seed number 1, second-ranked will be seed #2, etc. In the first round of the finals tournament, the first seed will be paired against the last seed, and the second seed against the next-to-last seed, and so on. Byes, if required, will be given to the highest-ranking clans first. For example, if there is only one bye required, it will go to the first seed. In the case of a tie in victory points in the Battle League standings, the tie will be resolved using the tie breaking rules set forth in the *DAMN Battle League rules.


Example bracket structure for 8 teams: (numbers are seeds)

Round 1(quarter finals)
#1    
______|Round 2(semifinals)
#8    |______|
______|      |
             |Round 3 (finals)
#4           |______|
______|      |      |
#5    |______|      |
______|             |
                     |
#3                  |
______|             |_______
#6    |______|      |
______|      |      |
             |      |
#2           |______|
______|      |
#7    |______|
______|


6. The maps for each round of the tournament shall be chosen by the *DAMN Battle League admins and announced at the beginning of the season. The maps should be chosen to represent a wide variety of playing styles. The maps used in the tournament are selected from all maps ruled eligible for regular season CBs.

7. For the finals tournament, a CB is best of five matches, and each match is best of seven rounds. Each round has a five minute time limit. All matches in a CB are played on the map preselected for that round of the tournament. The clan with the higher seed chooses the team colors for the first match. The teams swap colors at the end of each match. The winner of the CB moves on to the next tournament round.

8. At all times during tournament play, a minimum of 3 Battle League admins are expected to be logged onto GR to answer questions and handle rules disputes. All admins available for this purpose must make themselves known by prepending <BLA> to their GR name. (e.g. <BLA>Not_A_Noob) It is suggested these admins be in voice contact with each other, especially during any such dispute. Given the global nature of the League, it may not always be possible to have 3 admins online for each CB. However at least one admin unaffilliated with the CBing clans MUST be available in order for a CB to take place. The admins are responsible for being available.

9. During the semifinal round and final round, it shall be mandatory for at least two admins to sit in on each game, one of which shall observe each team. These admins will be in voice communication with each other, and are present to settle rules disputes immediately, and to monitor the game against cheating. At any point in the finals admins can be asked to join and observe a CB upon request.

10. Due to the high concentration of admin attention on the finals tournament, absolutely no appeals to the *DAMN Battle League forums shall be allowed. Any and all disputes shall be settled by the admins present at the scene, and their ruling is final. Any dispute which is not resolved by the next day of the tournament shall result in the disputed CB being declared a double forfeit and counted as a loss for both clans involved. The forfeiting clan(s) simply forfeit their game in the Finals.  Clans who forfeit will not be punished further other than a loss being added to their record.

11. All conclusions made by this proposal supercede that of previous rules as well as previous rulings.

12. The winner of the finals gets the nifty little BL winner icon, and all associated bragging rights as usual.


-Ace
-Alaric
-Brain
-Buccaneer
-Mr. Lothario?
-WillieTell

Looks like a very good idea. But i fear that there will be many many problems with that many CBs to be played in the finals. Of course it can be solved by admins online, wich is set as a requirement, but i'm affraid that there can occour so many problems that admins won't be able to solve them all. Another thing is that there will have to be scheduled 4 matches in round 1, there has been huge problems with scheduling 2 earlier, so that can also produce problems.

I think that it's a great idea, as it would make the finals more accesible, and the "average" clan would have more to play for.

A bad thing would be that a clan can have 3000 points and end up as number one in the main season, but in the 1st round of the finals be beaten out by a clan that has 500 points.

for the scheduling issue, i foresee it coming down to having the 2 clans work out a time that is best for them, so that shouldn't be a huge issue if we leave it up to the clans involved.  be sides, if the 2 clans don't play then it will get racked up as a bye so in this system, it's not as much of an issue.

for the admin issue.  i really doubt that there will be that many problems that the admins will have to deal with.  for every fiasco that you see in the forums there are countless cb's that go off without a hitch.  i can't think of any problems that my clan has been involved  in all the cb's we have played

for the number one seed being knocked out of the finalsearly. well, what can i say. nobody complains  when something like this happens during march madness, do they? (excepting people who have money riding on the games)  why would this be that much different?


if this is incoherent or anything, sorry, i didn't get any sleep last night (not for lack of trying either) so i'm kinda running on caffeine right now

lol, 9 out of 10 Mischievous Professionals agree :)

6 out of 15 actually GS.  i'm not quite that tired that i cant count yet...getting there though

It was just a play on words, Brain.  You know, Like 9 out of 10 Doctors agree....

i know...but seeing as i have nothing better to do at the moment...

lol.....I understand COMPLETELY!  That's why I'm on these forums 9 out of 10 hours each day.....

I know that there won't be that many problems, and the admins will most likely be able to handle thoose that might occour. The reason i stated that there could be a problem is most likely that i have the recent BTs vs MP5 issue in my head, that pretty much ended up in chaos. I doubt that we'll see such big problems occour again.

The scheduling issue can give major problems. All 4 matches have to be done on this "super-saturday", a fine idea, but it could very easily happen that the smaller clans won't be able to cb just that day, once again i get to think of the chaos of the BTs vs MP5 issue.

There is nothing to do with the number 1 being knocked out early, it will only make it more open.

ok, then some clarifications on the issue.  any one clan will have to CB only ONCE per 24 hour period. this will idealy occur on a weekend so that euro/usa cbs will be possible

as for scheduling and smaller clans, matchups should be decided atleast 24 hours ahead of time or as much as up to a week ahead of time so that timing shouldn't be as much of an issue.


the chaos of the bts/mp5 issue erupted from many different factors, but it could have been prevented had an admin been on hand (this is my personal take of the situation it by no means represents the opinion of any of the BL admins or any other members of |MP|). due to the large amount of admin presence we have suggested here, that shouldn't happen

I don't see how that would solve the problems for the smaller clans. But on the other side, the current system isn't better than this one concerning small clans.

i would like to know if the cb has to be done inside the 24 hour period, or if it can be pushed if boots clans agree to it.

i think a tourney is a great idea. i don't know how well it would work in the place of the current finals. nor do i believe mauti or elan would be happy doing the work involved. but put it aside from the regular bl and i think it'll be great. mb one of the other big clans like MP or BTs should give it a try during the next bl break.

this "tournament" could run between 2 seasons or next to one... but it should definitely not replace the current WORKING system in my opinion. clans who didnt make it to the Top 4 in the mainseason dont deserve to participate in any way in the Finals.

make it single elimination, a tourney standing alone (not as finals), and allow open registration. in either ghr or rvs your gonna get between 6 and 18 clans that will want to enter. single elimination will make it nice and short. sure some clans will be pissed if they get bounced by an inferior clan, but if it's done during the bl break the losing clan shouldn't be too heart broken. and if single elimination is too harsh, make it round robin.

     Responding to questions raised...

     It's true that requiring one scheduled CB per 24 hours may be difficult for smaller clans, but because it is a relatively low rate of CBs and because the dates for those CBs is known well ahead of time, arrangements can be made. Like Brain said, if it doesn't happen, it's simply counted as a loss for the clans involved. That sucks for them, but it doesn't ruin the tournament.

     All CBs must take place within the 24 hour period in order to allow the next round to be scheduled and played on time. Exceptions could be made for CBs on Sunday, but since any delayed CB will still require the presence of admins (on a day that the admins in question normally wouldn't have any tournament-related schedules), delaying a CB would require the permission and arrangement of at least three admins.

     Regarding a 3000 point clan being beaten by a 500 point clan: one of our motivations in constructing this idea was to use a system that primarily stresses skill, rather than primarily testing your ability to get CBs in the regular season and secondarily testing skill like the current system. If a clan can earn 3000 points in the regular season and still loses to the last seed in the first round of the finals, then their skill simply isn't up to snuff. This issue is the main thing we mean when we say "to make the finals more exciting".

     "Clans who didn't make it to the Top 4 in the main season don't deserve to participate in the Finals." There's the example of March Madness and Grand Slam tournaments as working and respected tournaments of this type, but I know that's not what you're talking about. To our way of thinking, the clan that wins the finals and thus the season should be the clan that is good enough to win when the chips are down, no matter who the opponent is. Regular season ranking still plays a part, as higher seeds are first in line for byes, and are bracketed to play against the lowest seeds, both of which will give them an easier ride. For a low seed to upset and come away with the tournament means that they had to win against at least one high seeded clan, and likely more than one (depends on how many upsets there are in the same tournament, heh). If a low seed can pull that off, they deserve the victory.

     Scheduling: The way I would elect to handle the scheduling if it were up to me is I would have all round 1 participants make arrangements before the first tournament weekend with everyone in round 1 and 2 of their bracket. In other words, handle the scheduling of the first two rounds' CBs all at once. After round one, you'd follow the appointment you set with the clan you will be playing against in round two. Referring to the bracket diagram, seed 1 would arrange with seed 8 for the first Saturday, and with seeds 4 and 5 for the following Sunday. If seeds 1 and 4 both win in the first round, their second-round match is already scheduled. Doing it that way would be the least stressful for the admins involved, since they would have advance knowledge of when they needed to be available; and it would be the least difficult for the clans involved, since seed 1 wouldn't have to worry about staying online on Saturday until seeds 4 and 5 finished their CB, or vice-versa.

Honestly, there is nothing wrong with the idea. I am sure to laugh privately at anyone who argues against this point. The problem is, that the community which makes up this league has never accepted a decent change, ever.
Some people around here argue against giving themselves more choices, and argue against making the game more fun. And for what? I certainly haven't seen an answer, and all my reasoning can come up with is that a lot of people are simply afraid. Afraid to lose what dominance they think they have to a change that they think will give someone else an advantage.
Guess what. Everyone gets the same change dealt to them, you are not alone. Clan A does NOT get a bigger advantage now that warzone is on the books, and clan B does NOT always get the weaker spawn because of it either. Everyone gets the same odds, and changing whether the bet is on a coin or a die does not change the odds when you call heads or tails, evens or odds.

Then the worst part, is the community's tendency to assume the worst before they have seen any trials. So there is your problem gentlemen of MP. Your proposal will not be stricken down by facts, assuming it dies, but simply by the reality that it is different.

Aramarth

Nice speech Ara...Do you remember that despite all the talk the community DID accept the WZ, and got to love it...Who says it will not be the case here too?

I?m all for a more active ladder, and as some one said earlier, this would be a way of getting everyone in the mood. Not to speak of the tension, which would be intact all the way even though a clan is at the 16th or 1st spot. There will be a larger amount of nerveracking cbs, which we have normally only experienced during the finals, since this system kicks out the losing clan in every round.

I say we give it a go...


z][t-Magnetic

Yes mags, I remember the wz debate quite well. The community didn't ever accept it. The complaints went on till the bitter end. In the end, they shut up only because it was a mute issue, and the game was going on anyway.

Don't read like I am raining on your party, I'm all for this change. I'm just mentioning what I've read and what I expect to read again.

Ara

This tournament thing is a great idea@!

That's what we were going to use for the BTL Finals.... But it never came about since it was just a test season... ;P

welll we still got the scripts for em... lets see what we can scrape up....

Rgr that Ara...putting away my umbrella  ;)


z][t-Magnetic

Sounds cool.

I don't agree, simply because mostly seeds above 6 or so could have gotten there with just 1-2 measly cb's, maybe if you HAD to play at minimum 8 cbs or 10 to get in.

Maybe if you had read before you wrote....

"2. Any clan which is recorded as having played a minimum of four CBs during the regular season is eligible to play in the finals tournament. Eligibility of players is according to the standard *DAMN Battle League rules."

Of course, this number could be set higher, but we figured that 4 seemed like a nice round number given the RvS numbers last season. I suppose you could tailor it to each ladder too, to better reflect that ladder's needs.

Sorry, I got lazy yesterday, but lets get back on topic now.

Ty for clarifying that without flaming me, alaric. I now agree with the whole single elimination "elite eight" thing.

thoughts on a sunday morning:

? will the observing admins add any lag to the server?  some hosts/matches this is more of an issue than others, but i don't know the technology well enough to answer.  i assume that all admins will be required to be premium users, or else how will they be able to use non-gameranger in game voice software?  :)

? any thoughts on re-seeding after each round. in other words, after each round, re-seed the matchups so the top survivng clan faces the bottom surviving clan and so on.  that would place a premium on the final rankings from the regular season because the road to the finals for lower ranked clans will be harder; they will always be facing higher ranked clans.  it would also mean that disruptions due to forfeits, disqualifications, etc. would be minimized.  for example, without re-seeding, the lowest surving clan could get a pass to the next round because the highest survivor defaulted.  with re-seeding, the pass would go to the next highest surviving clan, and the lowest clan would face the next highest after that.

? i am somewhat concerned that with this number of clans in the post-season, cb'ing will be a HUGE time committment during that time.  there needs to be a balance between the ladder and real life.  for example, those of us who are old enough to have jobs/families know how hard it is to allocate 4 hours of weekend daylight to video gaming, let alone doing it for multpile rounds.  perhaps others disagree.

good to see some creative thinking form the community.

I like the idea but an Idea I like better is for some how to host a tounament for the winnners of several DIFFERENT battle leagues.  It would be cool to see how us mac gammers stack up to a PC clan.  Also if it was orginized by *Damn it would give it lots of publicity and we could show thoes PC people whos boss.  :) just an idea.

I agree pyro.  I think that many cb's is a bit too ambitious fellas, and that in itself could cause more headaches.  We're on the right track with the way it is now, some refinements are needed is all.  Plus, there just arent that many clans around.  The way its looking now there arent going to be more than say 8 or 10 really active clans up for continuous playing and cbing during the regular season.

Kingo

points i noticed as i skimmed the replies replied to in no particular order(sorry if i missed one, it's rather late)

1. server lag: this one depends on  many things, but if you are already hosting 8 people with minimal problems, than the extra 2 probably wont make that much of a difference because all they will be doing is watching the game from specified wiewpoints. since they are not actualy interacting with the game (moving actors, shooting bullets, throwing frags and the like) the added server load should be minimal.  that said, everybody's host is different so it's impossible to tell for sure

2. reseeding: there are no plans currently to include reseeding in this bracket. if toy're the 16'th seed and number 1 doesn't show, there is no reason that the number 2 clan should get to steal your luck

3. the number of cb's: while the actual volume of cb's is high, the number of cb's per clan per day is still only one. it has been suggested earlier in this thread that there be a week between the end of the season and the the finals for the purposes of scheduling the necessary cb's

4. lack of clans:  if ther3 are only 8 active clans and they all meet the minimum requirements to be in the ladder i say great. i do not have a problem if everyone ends up in the finals, it just means that the regular season was used as a way to determine seed order

5. cross platform ladders: great idea in theory, but that would not work for raven shield due to network code incompatability

lol, you think the current system actually works? ;)

anywho...i think this is a great idea.  I do think reseeding should be looked at closer though.  Without reseeding, the emphasis on doing well in the regular season is minimized.  If you get the #1 spot going in, it only benefits you for the first round, after that it's a crap shoot.  I think Pyro is suggesting a reseeding system like in the NFL playoffs (without the wildcards and 1st week bye's  though).  It makes you really want to shoot for the higher spots in the main season.  Otherwise people will just be trying to get into the last spots, and won't be concerned with excelling in the main season.  And with a relatively small amount of clans competing, it'll be relatively easy to get one of those spots, so what's the motivation to play well in the main season?

otherwise, great idea.  seems like common sense to me, and it amazes me that somehow this have never been implemented before.

Responses to various points also in no particular order:

1. The volume of cbs the first day will be impressive, but remember that each clan only plays one cb that day. No more than the current finals system. Each weekend, each clan will only play 2 cbs. One per day. I don't think that's unreasonable.

2. Reseeding the ladder would make things needlessly complex. It's going to be a challenge to schedule all the cbs as it is, adding the need to reschedule on the fly would be foolish. Also, enough weight has been given to the ladder rankings already. Priority seeding, byes, etc.

One of the things that will make this tournament exciting is the prospect that ANYONE could feasibly win. And for that to happen we can't give too much weight to the high ranking positions on the ladder. The high ranked clans shouldn't really have trouble knocking out the low ranked clans anyway, they were, after all, able to beat the crap out of them during the season to gain that coveted high ranking spot.

3. As for the number of clans competing being too small for a tournament format like this: Yes, the RvS ladder is currently small. But it will grow. Just look at the GhR ladder, 18 active teams this last season. And hopefully that number will rise in each ladder. A more open finals system would likely encourage more clans to particpate making the ladder more enjoyable for all.

I like it. Its proven to make sense and work with everything from NCAA tournament to my schools bowling tournament. I would rather have a tourny where it was possible for a not to good clan to go on a tear and have a cinderella story and win, rather than utter domination by one clan. Upsets are fun(tho not if you're being upset, which I suppose is what many people are worrying about). It makes for a more fun all around tournament, with more active particapation by outside viewers(picking your fav clan, betting over paypal ;) that sort of thing.)

If you saw this year's NCAA Tournament, then you would know that upsets are what make it so good, in addition to what Snipe said, I think this route is the best way to go with the single elimination tourney, but what about a losers bracket in semi-finals? Also we should have different badges (Runner-up, 3rd, 4th place). It would make the whole atmosphere better overall.

I think this is a great idea.  I think it's absolute bullshit that only 4 clans in each ladder make it to the finals and then those clans have the hardest time in the world getting these stupid cb's played.

Also, this would tear into the "ladder experts", those who know how to control the points gained and lost so well based on who and when you cb someone and bring their clans to the top.  I appreciate you math wizards out there who can squeek up into the top 4 but it would absolutely rock if all of us were given a chance barring our dumb cb choices once in a while...

As far as the point of a clan's "skill" being brought up earlier by someone...  I agree.  Our clan beat multiple finals participants last season so we all know "upsets" will occur.  But how cool would it be to check the bracket on "Super Saturday" and see who beat whom?  It'd be just like Danny and the Miracles back in '88...

Maybe if we can get a lot of clans we can get differen't leagues just like the NCAA.  Then the winner of each league can play in a tourney.  There may not be enough dedicated clans though.

Great idea!

one of the things i like about the football league(soccer) i'm in, is when the season is over we end up in finals against the 3 top teams in the other 4 groups.
So i will add - i like the way champions league is set up, except this will have one match between each team. exciting!

But i do wonder if it will be too time consuming? will we end up with a huge headache from making sure we have an admin, making sure that teams can make it...like we have had problems in the finals w before. are there ways that we can "make sure" that it will move right along? it would be great to see something like this happen. i would just hate to see it getting messy when the finals arrive.

But all in all i'm for it.

(whispers* Aramarth, i was one of those opposed to WZ...how wrong was i :-)

proud to be z][t-Rampage

Great idea. MP does it again. This makes it easier and faster and includes more people. If the proper allowances can be made in the scheduling to allow for the inevitable intercontinental problems, I think it's about time we establish a little rigidity to the BL scheduling structure. If people would be willing to look at this more as a recreational competitive league (like a soccer or softball league) rather than 'something to do when nothing else is happening,' situations like we've had to deal with several times in the last few seasons would never come up.

I know I have a softball game on Saturday at noon. I do not opt to make plans with friends because I think it will be more fun. If I get a job, then I go to work and a sub takes my place or my team plays shorthanded or we take a forfeit. Period. I don't call the league office and tell them I need to reschedule our team's game.

I especially like the idea of issuing a 'tournament list of maps' at the beginning of the season. This is a great way to get everyone to learn more maps. With the exception of painfully buggy maps (like De Dust). There is no reason NOT to use more of the maps available. And we'd have the whole season to practice on them.

I am looking forward to the catfight in the admin section over map selection... should be fun!

     According to Mauti's announcement, season VIII will open on 29 April. Here in California, that means we have just under 11 days left. If the Finals Tournament is implemented, the admins will need time before the season begins to select the tournament maps. I don't mean to be pushy, but here's me pushing: we've had enough time for all interested parties to read and reply if they chose, and heard almost unanimous approval in the replies. To me, that says that everyone likes the idea. So, I'd like to hear word from On High regarding whether Season VIII will use this system for the finals or not.

i don't think it's realizable for season VIII already...

if we implement this Finals Tournament... we should let Mauti and Elandrion the time to develope the script... and we, the admins, need most probably more time than 11 days to discuss about all necessary things... i think.

we should not push this Finals Tournament before all things are clear... and discussed (like map selection by admins etc).

i'd say we introduce it for season IX... and have all necessary ready.

Something needs to be done with the finals, the current structure is bad and not a good idea.

Let's not wait. I say, make it happen for 8 or not at all.  Push Push.  Do we need a perfect script written in order to use it for the first season?  No reason to wait.  nothing to lose.  

If I wasn't completely obvious, to put it in perspective, if you want a repeat of what happened in the Season 7 Finals, then you wouuld simply do nothing.

Maybe we should create a vote thread?

it was not the system what caused the problems. the GhR Finals worked without problems at all btw...

i hear all this talk about needing a script in order to have this system work, but do we really need one?  i mean, sure it would be neat and spiffy if mauti and el came through with a script that automagicaly created the bracket and did everything else, but do we really need it?  is it unreasonable to ask our admins to simply create an ascii bracket or a pen and paper one and update it by hand for the first season?

the reason i pose these questions is because at this stage delaying the implementation of this finals system would be the kiss of death for it.  if we wait till season 9 to implement this, people will place this issue on the back burner and forget about it. the unprecedented solidarity in the will to change for the better will crumble.  the best shot at league reform we have had since the season system was implemented will be wasted. do we really want that? are there people amongst our number that really have no wish to see the current, undeniably broken, system change?

the sad answer to this is yes there are.

You people who wish for the death of this idea, i now ask of you why.  why do you feel this urge to stand in the way of progress?  why do you feel a need to rise above the community and impose your will over theirs?  this proposal fixes issues with the BL that have been present since before the current seasons format was implemented. of those who have spoken support has been near unanimous.  why persist in resisting?  to quote Aramarth way back in the beginning of this discussion


so i challenge you nay sayers to cease with the cloak and dagger tactics of attempting to get this proposal to die in the shadows. step out into the light and prove Aramarth wrong.  strike at this proposal with facts and we will strike back with the same.  unlike so many other proposals that have seen the  BL forums we will not let this one fall by the wayside or fall to petty politicking.  if this proposal is to die it will be from a frontal assault on it's integrity and no other way.

i have drawn the line in the sand, let any who would wish to challenge this proposal step over it now
-Brain

p.s. to those of you who wish to see the admins act on this proposal, i have heard rumor that it has been added to the agenda of things that need to be discussed/resolved before season 8 begins
[/color]

I think the new structuring idea is a fine one.  I have only one concern.  I dont disagree that we need to restructure the finals cb's, and this new proposal is by far the best, I'm excited to see it's implementation.  I'm just wondering if we're trying to do it with too many clans.  Of course this applies to RvS more than GhR.  In RvS there just arent enough active clans to have a bracket of that size, which I'm assuming is still 16 teams?  I suggest the GhR ladder have a larger number of clans in its bracket, and that the RvS finals Bracket consist of maybe 8 clans.  This is simply because as many of you know who regularly play in RvS pick up games, there aren't nearly as many clans around who will be involved in cbing during the regualr season.  Sure there are new clans popping up and older clans bolstering up, but RvS still just doesnt have enough clans for a full NCAA type sized tournament.  I'm afriad that in our effort to get the finals to run more smoothly than last season, we're going to muck it up again by obligating too many clans to participate this time around, and this could include GhR.  Don't forget that the MAIN reason there were any problems or excuses by clans or clan members last season was time, wether right or not.  People simply claiming they wouldnt have the time to play on a certain day or at a certain hour, and with more clans comes the inevitable...more problems with schedules.  It is after all a video game and most of us have jobs or school and lives that have to take priority sometimes.  I would say this bracketing idea is a great one, but we shouldnt get too ambitious with it is all.  I know it's easy to say that if a clan doesnt show they are out, but that could get ugly if more clans have to allocate time they dont necessarily have.

Let me first say that I appreciate all the thought that has gone into the replies so far. That people have taken the time to reply in a complete and respectful manner gives me much hope for this league.

Now some replies and considerations in no particular order....


Change is not a bad thing, nor is it something to be feared. To not implement a change that fixes or improves something simply because it is new is not a good thing. It's a foolish decision based more out of fear than rational thought. Yes, there have been many changes to this league over the last 14 months, but each time the league was made better. Why stop a good thing from happening?

The bracket size should be tailored to the ladder size (I think we covered that in the inital proposal, but maybe we missed it). GhR would have a larger bracket than RvS, for now...  ;)  Also, remember that if a clan for one reason or another doesn't show, it only eliminates them making it a bye for the other team. Each clan has 24 hours to do the cb for a round, if they can't make it, tough, they'll get another shot next season. One of the advantages of this system is that if one or more clans do forfeit it doesn't seriously affect the outcome of the finals.

As for the admins not being ready for season VII, I hate to say it, but who's fault is that? This proposal has been on the table for several weeks now, and it's pretty much in finished form. 11 days should be more than enough time to iron out the details and tie up loose ends. And if it comes down to it, who here wouldn't mind pushing back the start of the season another week or two if it means having a much better system in place for season VII?

     KoP, see above. : ) The March Madness style of tournament is very flexible in terms of bracketing for various numbers of teams. We specifically mentioned 8 and 16 participants, because those numbers result in clean brackets with no need for byes or extra partial rounds. It will be possible to adjust the brackets to accomodate any number of clans, so there's no need to set hard-and-fast limits on the number of participants.

In truth, it could be ready for next season, but that is not on the shoulders of the admins. Mauti and Elan are the guys who need to hear about it, and we are doing what we can to advertise the topic.

Removed off topic SPAM. -Bucc

Ara, I think it's in the hands of the Admins to discuss, and get the rules laid out.  Take the next week and finalize the rules.  Be the administrators, don't wait for Mauti if he's busy.  Yes he has a say, but if you are just waiting for him than you may as well not be an Admin.  If most of the people in the league are for this, lay the rules out in the admin section already.  

Warzone got discussed (and it was not agreed upon like this has been, there was quite a heated debate and resistance to it) and put into place between two seasons.  No reason this can't be too.  There are obviously things to discuss like re-seeding and map selection, why not get it done and on the table so it can be implemented as soon as possible, without missing the opportunity while waiting to hear from Mauti??

The scripts are in Elandrian's hands unless he asks for help.

Civic, you don't need the scripts written for the finals before the season starts, just the rules laid out.  The scripts would need to be changed at the finals, so that's when they'd need to be done by.

And Elandrian can always ask for help if he's pressed for time.  It's not for you or I to say he doesn't have the time.  It's for him to say, and to ask for help if he thinks he needs it.

I fully intended to bring it up in the admin section bucc, but I left that part out of my post. You of all people should know that I have already done so. I suppose it is nice to go off on someone like that now and then, but I really don't think that was called for.

I think anytime anybody goes off on an admin it is called for  ;)

But as for the Tournament thing, I like the idea.

-GhostSniper Out.

I haven't seen it brought up for discussion yet.  All I've seen it talk about doing a voice chat.  Not the same thing.

In your posts here you've really implied that apathy will be the death of it, even though you think it's a good idea.  I'm saying if you feel that way, don't be apathetic about it.  


I did, because it seems that you are saying apathy is the problem, but not trying to change that fact.

I also don't think it was going off all that hard, it's just an opinion.  

You're right, there hasn't been much posting. I lost faith in it the last time it seemed like my post was invisible to the thread's discussion, or more recently, the entire thread invisible to everyone. Lately I have been using the direct approach on Gameranger. Again, I hear only positives, but with a whole lot of "I don't knows." Apparently, a system such as this which requires wins to advance and losses to eliminate is far in advance of anything the minds of admins can invision. Seriously, I can run this tournament on a piece of paper and post the results as a jpeg. The mindset is that we are waiting for Mauti, and I haven't had any success changing it.

No offense to Mauti or the admins here but this is starting to feel a bit like christianity to me. I mean, it's like we're waiting for the second coming.

I don't mean to speak for Mauti here but I doubt he'd mind the admins taking more of a leadership role in the league. Mauti of course still has veto powers on everything, but I thought the point of having a council of admins was to give greater autonomy to the league. We can't hold up the advancement of the league because of the absence of one man.

As for these "I don't knows", let's hear the reasons for them. If there are ideas or other ways to improve this system, let's hear them in an open discussion. It can only make things better.

After reading the first post:

I hate this idea and if it is to be used, I won't participate in playing on the *DAMN battle league at all. Five minute matches? This is a tactical game! On big maps, there is no way to set up a good tactic in five minutes, as it can take five minutes just to MOVE ACROSS THE MAP! This is not Quake. I'd rather see the limit at 15 or NO time limit like in the REAL world. And one scheduled cb per day?! wtf, what about american-european battles?

The community is working now, mb not perfect, but I am afraid drastic changes like this might kill the community or throw it off balance!

On the other hand, it WOULD be nice if MP could host a tournament like this. No fancy php is needed... just some text with the result and news and another winner icon.

I'm thinking of starting a little tournament myself... With no time limit. Stupid idea? Ask me in GR for more!
 

We're looking ahead at RvS most likely Acri, not the doomed Recon.

Why does everyone keep talking about Ghost Recon like it is doomed and nobody wants to play it?  I'm sorry to disappoint some of you, but RvS is NO replacement for Ghost Recon.  GhR is still the most played game on GameRanger, and it is a long way from turning into RS or R6 on the *DAMN Battle League.

Personally, I think RvS sucks....and I have both the machine and the skill to play it properly.

But hey, AA all the way, baby!

-GhostSniper Out.

     The 5 minute time limit was decided on with Raven Shield in mind. We foresaw that there would need to be some variant rules for other games, and a longer time limit for GhR was one of them. Since none of us play GhR any more, we weren't sure what sort of time limit would be best, so we just left it out, trusting to the GhR community to suggest a time limit.

First thing first,  the Mauti issue.

If memory serves me, the council of admins has the same authority mauti has for smaller issues.  Nobody in the community seems to have a problem accepting this fact.  What is lesser known is that they can also make decisions on a far larger scale (such as the one being discussed presently) if there is a consensus among admins.

  I forget the exact number, but I believe it is 7 admins need to agree on the change at hand (could be more or less based on the severity of the change).  Remember that mauti will ALWAYS have a final veto in any decision, but the reason he started this system was so that he would not need to babysit the league 24/7/365.  It used to be the case that when ever an admin handed down a verdict that the clan that was ruled against would go to straight to mauti and seek a more favorable ruling.  This became understandably annoying, and this he's given the admins the power to make critical decisions in his stead. He has trusted you with his brainchild, and he trusts you enough to be his voice on game ranger when he isn't there.  If mauti is trusting you this much already, why do yo believe that you need his approval on this issue before you can proceed?  Mauti has always acted in the interests of the community and the league.  If the community wants this and there is no harm to the league, what makes you think Mauti would say no?


Secondly, Flies "i don't know".  Hopefully I can clear up some of these point that you mentioned. If I don't I'll be happy to try again.


Yes, a normal season would be nice, but there are 2 problems with this in my mind.
1)  It has been acknowledged that this current system has flaws.  the recent issues in this past finals confirms that.  i would rather put up with a few new rules that could reduce or eliminate the possibility of this  situation happening again than to have to sit through the drama that happened this time.
2)  What is normal?  I cannot remember a season where afterwards the admins did not tweak and clarify the rules in an attempt to make the BL a more fun and fair place to compete. while our suggestion is indeed far larger than most of the run of the mill changes, it is still an attempt to make the battle league a better place.


Yes, I remember when ViRuS proposed the bracket system.  It was a good idea back then as well because it dealt with many of the issues that are still present in the league today.  Unfortunately the league was unprepared to accept the proposal at that time.  Maybe this time will be different


Honestly, I do not know.  That is for the admins to decide.  On a personal note i do not know wether or not I would be in favor of such a proposal because while it is a step towards scheduled CB's which could solve many problems in the league, it could pose many problems for smaller clans that may not have enough members to CB often, and bigger clans who cannot meet there quota because other clans will not CB them


I am not exactly sure which rules you are referring to here, however, i can only assume that should the idea be accepted that would be the case.  Again, this is for the admins to iron out, however, since the proposal primarily covers the finals and not the rest of the season, I would think that the amount of rule tweaking should be minimized


First off, thank you. we did pt a lot of hard work and effort into the proposal.   I guess that is why we are being 'pushy' right now.  We don't want all our hard work to just wither away and become another thread in the BL forums.  As for keeping track of games, I believe that has been well covered in other posts.  In fact, It could become like march madness with everybody filling out their brackets and seeing who's going to make it to the top


Well, I can't comment on your personal feelings, because they are your own, but I suppose I could post my feelings on this.  My feeling is that change is inevitable.  No matter what we try to do to the League, it will change, so I feel that I should try to make that inevitable change for the better.  There is one thing that will never change however, that is the spirit that drives this community and holds us together.  As long as we all continue to log on to the forums or GR to chat and play and laugh and argue, we will always have that inertia which you refer to that will keep us going


That's ok Flies, this is a big proposal, and honestly I wasn't sold on it either after the first reading, nor the second or the third.  But the reason I'm willing to stand here and defend it now is because i went thorough the same process you are and I came to believe that this proposal was in the the best interest of the BL. Yes there will be problems along the way, but then again, for every problem there is a solution.  I can't tell you what you are going to decide nor will i attempt to. all I'm trying to do here is to tell you what good I saw in this proposal.  In the end you're going to need to make your own decision, and as long as it is your own, nobody can say it's wrong


-Brain

[/color]

     Flies, are you thinking that the League should get rid of the finals? That's one point that I got from reading your post, so correct me if I'm wrong. : )

     Edit: I talked with Alaric, and he clarified your position. I understand you to mean that you'd like to modify the regular season, but keep the existing finals system.

     Ah. Sorry, I figured that your post had some bearing on the proposal for a finals tournament.

i agree with Flies in most points and vote no to MP's suggestion too.

Flies explains the doubts i had when i posted in this thread first time very good, the problems and complications which could/would occur.

     Ah, a list of valid complaints. I thank you, Flies.

     Now, do you fellows have any suggestions for ways to remove the flaws you perceive?

I'd like to point out that many clans don't even do 4 cbs a season, so even this would make for more action during the regular season. As for it being an excuse not to cb? Honestly, so what? Those clans will have the worst seeds possible and get knocked out of the finals first round.



The idea behind the single elimination is to play one cb and get that round done with. I think most of the scheduling problems we've seen so far are due to clans haveing to cb several times during the course of the week. In my mind, that's harder to organize for two reasons: one, it's the same clans. two, the time allowed for them to schedule is too wide open. If you set it to one day everyone can plan to be available on that one day and anyone who can't simply forfeits.

Also, that one cb is going to be 3 times the excitement because it's all on the line.



The idea behind this idea is to equal the playing field between the clans. If the goal is to determine who's best you need to remove as many variables as possible to test a teams skill and ability in a variety of situations. If everyone has to play every map, the best clan becomes much easier to determine: "Who is the best overall in every situation?"

In other words, what we're trying to get away from is clans who have just a few maps they're really good at and don't play at all on the others.



The absolute number one problem last season and in this league in general is BL forums rules lawyering. Last season's RvS finals were disrupted by clans turning to the BL forums to overrule decisions they don't like. Why have admins available at all on GR if all clans are gonna do is appeal to the BL forums all the time?

Will the right decisons be made on the field all the time? No.
Are the right decisons made in the forums all the time? No.

Admin/ref mistakes will be made, just like in any sport. It's part of the game no matter how you design it.




Yes, and I think that's a problem our system fixes. By limiting the cbing to one day per round, if a clan doesn't make it, that's it, they're out and the other clan gets a bye. And because there are many admins on, it can be quickly verified that one clan never showed.

Also, because everybody cbs on the same day, people can plan to be available that day alone, instead of random times during the week. Seems alot easier to me anyway.



Fully half of the RvS teams "backed out" of the finals this way last season. One of the advantages to having more clans participate in general is that having teams forfeit doesn't destroy the finals. Byes are handed out and life goes on.

And for making a fuss out of scheduling the cb, again, if they don't show, they forfeit. The other team just needs to be available that one day instead of all week. A much simpler system, in my mind.



Let them shout, the admin decisons are final. Another part of this system tries to give some of the respect and power back to the admins. Doesn't matter how much clans bitch, the admins are still the ones calling the shots.



Quite a few clans don't cb 4 times a season now, and I think this is because they realize they have no chance of getting into the finals. By using an open finals system they are encouraged to keep playing making the league better for everyone.

Also, by using open finals ladder ranking is less important, it no longer decides who gets into the finals, which is the most serious flaw in our current system. Under our current system tactical cbing is rampant. The proposed system fixes that and gets the regular season's focus back on general cbing, hopefully adding more fun back into the league.




You've said yourself there's not much difference between the current system and the proposed system. All the changes are minor and each of them serves a purpose. If the proposed plan is put into action, I think this will be a much healthier league for it.

This has nothing to do with the argument.  Loth is welcome to his opinion just as you are.  But it's not an all or nothing thing.  Compromise can be reached amongst the admins.  


1) Clans don't need excuses now, they still manage to say no.
2) The encouragement to play / win more is to get a better seeding.
3) Having a minimum is just that, a minimum.  We had one of those too saying if you signed up for a ladder and didn't play the minimum number of CB's you'd be banned for the next season.  We've just never enforced it.

Adding other things doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.  Other ideas don't mean the finals can't be changed, does it?


It's also been one of the problems.  This way you don't have to worry about if the 3rd CB is necessary, and when to play it.  It's one CB a day, at the scheduled time, for everyone.  Winning once or winning twice, not a huge difference.  It's not like these are best of 7 series.


Flies, don't pull statements like "according to the rules".  Changing rules is exactly what the whole conversation is about.  It's a cheap tactic.

As for picking the maps, if they are done at the start of the season, and told to all, there can be no complaints.  It's not like we are talking about the Admins picking the maps right before the games.  And I'm going out on a limb making the assumption that the Admins would pick maps that are very fair to both spawns, like CSL.  That may be too much to ask though.


If you think that is the one and only goal, you need to have it explained to you much better flies, because you are working from a huge misperception.


Funny thing, scheduling is the one thing we already have that wouldn't be changed.  So that says to me it's a problem that needs to be fixed either way Flies.

Your argument against the bigger bracket because of scheduling problems is void, since you agree yourself that problem already exists, and we aren't effecting it at all.  

And to those that don't like the scheduling system and want to bitch, I say: come up with a better solution and bring it forward, or shut up.


I don't think it will have a negative effect on clans CBing in the regular season.  There is still the top seed to go after, and like I pointed out, we've had a minimum that wasn't enforced before.  And by all means, make the minimum higher to 6 or 8 CB's.  I'm all for it.  

And we are talking about rewriting the finals, nothing else.  If we managed to get warzone in between seasons, the only reason we can't do this would be the fault of Admins not being proactive and doing their job.  Shouldn't bee so hard.  I know VooDoo and Aramarth are trying to get a conversation going this weekend.  If I'm there that's three of us, how 'bout we work it out then?


Who said it was untouchable?  That's the second time you've mentioned that.  Who said it couldn't or shouldn't be discussed and improved upon?  I've already read a couple suggestions here that I didn't think of but like.  Is someone selling this with a copyright that you can't make changes or something?

This seems to be the heart of your problem.  1) you are looking for this to solve a problem that it wasn't meant to (scheduling) and 2) you think it's not allowed to be improved upon.  

 
Just because Lothario says that there is no room for change in this proposal does not mean he speaks for all of |MP|. this suggestion is largly loth's brain child so naturaly he has a resistance towards changing it.  However,the only person in |MP| who's opinion matters is Alaric at this point since he is the admin who will be repesenting us.


As was mensioned before, the goal here was to eliminate the issue of clans just having 2 or 3 maps that were their maps.  also, these admin map selections were only going to apply in the finals. clans would still be allowed to pick and play maps normaly in the regular season.  once the finals occur, than the maps are known to both sides and nobody has to worry about things such as wether or not this is a good or bad map for your clan. They would have all season to prepare for these 4 maps


you're right, there is a motive behind this suggestion.  our motive was to provide a system that produces a clear winner in the battle league with as little compliction as possible and in a manner that is as fair as possible. the system was also supposed to eliminate problems like those experienced with this past season.

frankly we were sick and tired of each clan having their rules lawyer look at every single angle to try and force a redo or a forfit.  we were sick and tired of finals pattles that were interupted for days because nobody knew who was supposed to chose the color on the next map.

we alsot wanted to figure out a way to get excitement back in the league, we wanted o find a way to get clans to cb, not because they had to by rule, but because they WANTED to.

we feel that this proposal does this. if it requires that rules be rewritten, i say so be it. change begets change. if we want to change the system for the better, then we will need to change the rules.  this super saturday you mension as a goal for our proposal was nothing more than a cool sounding name we came up with. the real goal for the entire proposal is FUN. pure, plain, and simple


-Brain
[/color]

     I feel I should go on record here.

     Flies, I specifically told you that suggestions were welcome, and we were more than willing to adopt any changes which would make the proposal better.

     You were hung up on an idea of your own having to do with the regular season. You repeatedly insisted that the change you wanted to make to the regular season would fix several problems in the league. I repeatedly told you that those same problems were being addressed by the finals proposal, so that it would be redundant to fix them again by grafting your plan onto the finals proposal. Rather than explain why I was wrong and why your idea really was good for the league when combined with the finals proposal, you repeatedly went back to listing the problems in the league and why your idea would fix them. So I repeatedly told you your idea was redundant. You got huffy, decided that I was dead-set against change, and came here to post.

     If the finals proposal didn't exist, I might have supported your idea. I just think that the finals proposal will reach the same ends, but be more fun. Implementing both is silly, and I've picked my horse for implementing one. It has nothing to do with a refusal to change, and everything to do with your ideas not being improvements.

In conjunction with the post I made in the other thread (RvS Season 8 Rules)

This could really work if the season was extended to 90 Days length. This would give the clans more than enough time to get a required number of cb's to participate. (I.E. 10 cb's)

For those of you who are waiting to hear regarding the MP finals proposal, an update. Sunday evening it was brought forward for a vote.  As of today, the conclusion of that vote was suspended in order for an amendment to be discussed. I will try to keep you in the loop if there is any information that bears sharing outside our little admin forum.

Off topic to concerning this, but is there a vote to have the 60 day season instated?

Just started one actually, Crypt.

Ok, thanks. I guess this thread is of no use anymore.

This is the same plan Bondo, Brain and I proposed about 2 years ago.  I like the idea very much and think it's cool.  Much of the community was against it though, having the set up schedule and bracket.  We showed in the tounaments that we held that they will work if the people are willing to play but if not they will fall apart and there will just be a bunch of forfeits which doesn't work.  People will use excuses and one will say the other wasn't willing and such.  If I stand for anything I'd like to see it happen, my only problem is that if the support in the community is willing to make it work.  Also I think 16 clans is a lot to make the playoffs.  Is there really enough room for that many?

I thought it depended on the size of the ladder. I.E. The Ghost Recon ladder might be 8 but Raven Shield might just be 4.

I vote against this new finals system and I vote for a longer season and 6 or more clans in the finals.

Who said you get to vote! ;)

Who said you get to question me, midget? ;)

I cancel out your vote.  settled.

MIDGET?!? Thats it, I'm going to delete one of your posts without warning sometime just for fun. ;) j/k
I am many things, but one thing I am not is a midget!

ive seen ara

he is a midget


woot

 :( I really don't know what you're talking about...

As quickly as this came into being, the vote has been resolved. There is obviously too much dispute between sides to implement the MP finals system in time for season 8. A definitive answer will be posted about the issue before season 9.

As a glimmer of hope for those of you who really want more clans this coming season, regardless of how we get them, I am trying to get a vote completed to merely raise the number of included clans to 8 as a temporary substitute for a more complete system/rule.