*DAMN R6 Forum

I just posted this in the Network forums, but wanted to post it here for all to see as well, since not everyone may be aware of it.

Guys, I have to say I'm very disappointed.  You are really basing this new league on a bunch of bullshit.  So I'm coming out publicly and letting you know where I stand on it.

This isn't a flame, it's not intended to insult.  It's intent is to make you look at the mistakes you are making right now.  You can't build a building on a rotten foundation, and I think that's exactly what you are doing with this new league.  

And before anyone here says "who cares, you guys hardly CB", the two major factors behind that are 1) most clans aren't online when we are, as we are a very late night clan and 2) CB'ing has been no fun of late, with everyone crying "glitch" "replay" and just being whinny little pricks.  

I don't think the DAMN BL is perfect, but I'd rather fix what we have then splinter our community, which is what you have chosen, and for the wrong reasons.

I'm going to start with a few quotes I've read:




I especially like that last one.  It stinks of hypocrisy (especially when compared to the first).  You say in one thread that you don't want to compete with the DAMN BL, you say in another that you want clans to boycott the DAMN BL, and you want Mauti to close it.

Now, on to more of the crap:




Ok, I have to call Bullshit once again.  People have posted and talked about many changes on the DAMN BL in the time that I've witnessed.  And the changes that the majority wanted seemed to happen, didn't they?

Face it, when things like the scoring were discussed in a meaningful, logical way, it was addressed and handled.  Same with Warzone, Siege and CQB.  On the other hand, flames directed at replacing moderators were usually brought down by the majority.  

One more quote:

Bottom line.  None of the issues with Admins should be about their age, what games they play, if you like them personally or where they are from.  All that should matter is, do they do a good job or not.  The rest is just bullshit.  I doesn't matter if you don't like VooDoo, does he do is job as an admin right is the only fair question.  

I hear lots of talk about the new league being fair, but fair and democratic are not the same thing.  Think civil rights if you don't believe me.  In a pure democracy, the minority get punished (ie, blacks not allowed to sit in the front of the bus, drink out of the same water, or allowed in the same schools).  It's not fair, but it was democratic (we can talk about the unfair policies of ancient greece too if you don't believe me).  So fair isn't making it a "North American League" so that we Americans have more say.  

You guys are pissed (and deny it all you want, but it's plastered all over your own forums) about the whole finals and time thing.  Well guess what, Mauti tried to come up with a solution that didn't turn out to be the best.  Big deal.  It's already been discussed and improved for next season (something you say doesn't happen, btw).  

You guys are just taking a small community and making it smaller.  Instead of focusing on the actual issues, and solving them, you are focusing it on bias (Euro vs North American, Democracy vs Monarchy, Boxers vs Briefs).  When it comes down to it, decisions are going to have to be made, and those wont be by committee.  The admins will have to do their job, and someone will not be happy.  Admins will even make mistakes.  It happens in all ladders.  

So I'm asking you, reconsider.  Put forth this effort not into splintering the community, but in making the existing community a better place.  I honestly don't think most of the people I've seen posting about the new league have put forth that effort in the old one.  I know that's what I'm going to continue to do.

And, like I said, basing a new construction on a faulty foundation is a sure way to be able to watch it collapse.

One thing I should have added.  

I believe in loyalty.  Mauti, the admins, and the DAMN BL have given to this community.  Helped bring it about.  And they have tried their best to make it better, to improve upon it.

I think Mauti has taken the time to address issues with all people that bring them up respectfully, and even many that don't.

So while I don't find the BL perfect, and I think it has more then a couple flaws I'd like to see fixed, as long as they are working to fix them, listening to the issues, I'll continue to be loyal to them and work with them.

And since most of you are from N and c|, you all know me.  Don't discount my opinion because of a lack of CB participation (which has been brandied about a few times to try and discredit my comments).  I play GhR as much as any, and MP has given to the community as well.  Both of you have used our servers in CB's more then once.  So you can't question our motives honestly.

What new league? ::)

Noto from network is leading the charge (followed closely by c|Splinter and Rapid).

You can see more about it by clicking here. (http://www.cwdim.com/forum/index.php") and specifically here (http://www.cwdim.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=58")

I am compelled to stand behind bucc on most of his points here.  They are all well though out, and quite valid.  I don't think making a completely new league is necessary.  As bucc was saying, we should work with what little we have left

I don't think that BTs is leaving DAMN, but we have a script for a league already paid for, and we will be re-writing it, we need something to use it on, so i don't think this will replace DAMN.

If people want a new ladder, whats your big gripe with it?

You dont have to play in it.

Also there wasnt as much accomodation towards .::|N| as you seem to think.

anyway....I dont feel a need to say much more about this post.  Feel the way you wish to feel.

Things pass, life goes on.? This is just like the business world that youve been harping on so much Bucc, in reference to Evill and GR.? Except *DAMN doesnt have a monopoly on the market.? Creating an equal or better replica of GR would be immensely difficult, creating a mimic of *DAMN, which improves upon the points that whe find irksome, is not nearly as difficult, for a number of reasons I wont get into.
? Think of this as a business and us, the GR community, as the consumers. Then this situation becomes is entirely understandable. ? An organization will lose its customers, us, if they do not provide the services that the general public demands, and the public, or portions who are displeased with the existing situation, will either go find another, better, pre-existing organization, or theyll make their own.? We, a significant portion of the GR community, decided the later.?

Oh btw, you said at the beginning of your post that it wasnt meant to be an insult, how praytell do you call other people's ideas and suggestions
"Mistakes"? "A rotten foundation""hypocritic" "Onto more of the Crap" without pissing them off?

Wolf don't be a prick.

We are not customers.

They do this for free.

You owe them likes customers do.

Pay them with your loyalty.

That it's splintering an already small community.  I think I said that.

Not to mention the fact that building it on bullshit means it's doomed to suck.


You are right, I'm not.


I didn't see N asking for it politely either.  How many threads have you started looking to make changes in the BL (that weren't bitch sessions)?


Always do, and I let it be known.

Colin think realistically.  We are customers, because we take the service provided by the *DAMN BL, whether it be paid for or not, and utilize it for our own enjoyement.  The customer owes the provider jack squat, unless the provider has a monopoly on the product, IE Evill w/ GameRanger.  This is a harsh reality though, morally we do owe *DAMN something, Mauti and Elan especially.  It is very commendable that they started this BL from nothing and built it into what it was.  But nothing lasts forever.

Problem is, I disagree about them not providing the services that the general public needs.  I look at your major complaints, and I don't see logic.  That was my whole point about a rotten foundation.


Mistakes - if having a mistake pointed out bothers you, grow up.  It's not an insult.
Rotten foundation - was the correct term in the analogy of building a house.
Hypocritical - was what I saw.  Correct it if it's wrong, but saying it's not out to displace the DAMN BL, then advocating not playing on the DAMN BL, and saying you hope it will die off seems to be a clear case of it to me.

If I was insulting, I would have called you a bunch of children that have decided they are going to take their ball and go home because they didn't get their way.  That would be meant as insulting.

The logic is that the public demand is for problems to be met faster, more consistantly ruled on, and a slue of other things that dont need to be gotten into.  

About the insulting, there are more politically correct ways to put things, but thats just your way of speaking and interpreting.

See, if you had gotten into them here, they may have been addressed here.  That was a large part of my point.  There is no logic in thinking a problem should be fixed when you didn't put forth the effort here to fix it.

And you aren't "the public", you are a subset thereof, because obviously not everyone agrees with you either.


Correction, it's my way of writing, your way of interpreting.  If you chose to take them as insults, all I can do is tell you that's not how I meant them.  You may think it's crass, but I may think you too sensitive too.

My point is that people have brought them up, and also its pretty easy to see from a mostly outsider & neutral point of view (see my whopping 10 or so posts so far?)  That things arent getting adressed in a hurry.  And youre right, I/we are not -THE- community, but a good portion of it, if the clans and people that have spoken for it are actually going to support it.  

So far, Vect and and yourself are the only two posters who have said whole heartedly that the new BL is a bad idea thru and thru.  BTs is providing the script for it that is rather supportive, dont you think? Crypt said BTs probably wouldnt leave *DAMN totally.  Most if not all of The Co||ective are for it whole heartedly, and im guessing that the same applies for .:N.  Quite a few right off the bat wouldnt you say?

Want to take a stab at salvaging the DAMN version of the BL and keep everybody on the same  ladder? Read the threads on the Network forums regarding the administration of the DAMN BL.

Sure, Mauti has done great work over the years in building this league, and I don't doubt for a second he has the best intentions and makes the effort to correct errors and weaknesses as they come up. However, he seems to draw a line at the suggestion of allowing member clans a direct voice in administering this league themselves or having any kind of direct say about what direction the league takes on any level. We just cast our prayers upon the forum fires and hope for the best. If the issue has strong opinions on both sides, a flame  war seems to be inevitable. People just seem unable to  contain themselves when masked by the internet. But I digress.

My experience with addressing issues to admins  in DAMN has been that everything gets referred to  Mauti anyways. That is my personal experience surrounding specific issues my clan or myself were involved in. If forwarding problems/ complaints to Mauti is the job of the admins, I cannot even say they did a great job of that, as I had to email Mauti directly to get action on one item in season 4.

There was a similar 'discussion' after season 4 regarding the Administrative structure of the BL. If I remember correctly, Lothario even wrote a draft of a 'constitution' which was offered as a new foundation. The point is: this new league may or may not get off the ground... it may or may not  weaken or  even destroy the BL, but the same issue has been brought up after two consecutive seasons and it is an issue that has NOT been addressed in any meaningful manner.

Your point about the difference between fair and democratic is valid Bucc. My question is this: is it fair to expect Mauti to perpetually have to give his personal attention to the usual s#!+ storm of issues that come up evey season in a balanced, thought out way when by his own admission he is ever more buried with his real-world workload? I think it is, if the current structure is the one he insists on maintaining. The end result will most likely be the same complaints and efforts to 'build a better mousetrap' at the end of every season (perhaps the league is in fact grown too large and that is part of the problem?).

If however, the power structure is allowed to turn and flow from the bottom upwards, we all might find that it does indeed work more smoothly and easily to have one ultimate authority in whom all final decisions rests.

Unless we take a chance- either under the umbrella of DAMN or under a different banner, we will never know.  

Kudos Gambit, perfectly said :)

And with that whopping 10 posts, how many issues did you ask to be addressed?  How many things did you contribute to making it better?

As for bringing them up, I've seen people bring up replacing the admins or an admin a few times, and I've seen majority show support for those admins too.  So, if you guys work off a majority, how would that change?

Now, I've pointed out examples of where this BL has changed at the request of it's community, please show me where it didn't.


You talk about who's posted, then mention that your whole clan and others are behind it.  There's a case of apples and oranges.

On the Network forums, I see 5 or 6 people that are really outspoken about it.  I've also seen more then me and Vect that are against it.  I also see a BL with about 30 clans that CB'd this season.

My whole point is, how does splintering the community make it a better place?  And if you can't stay and put forth that effort fixing the problems here, how are you going to manage it there?

To Bucc, and others,

As much as I have tried to clear up why a new league is forming, my points do not seem to have been understood.  First off, no matter what league you go to, they pretty much offer the same things: forums, ladders, scoring systems, downloads, etc.  

The new league will not offer anything much different than what the *DAMN Battle League offers in regards to forums, ladders, scoring systems, downloads, etc.  The discussions that have been taking place about the aforementioned items have supported containing a forum, offering more and varied ladders, using a different scoring system, downloads & links to downloads, etc.  As you can clearly see, there is little to no difference in this regard.

The only real thing that differs from league to league is the way in which the league is run.  From what I observe, the *DAMN Battle League currently has a hierarchy resembling the following:

Mauti => Elandrion => Admins/Mods => Pillars of Community => Respected Clan Leaders => Rest of Community

This is what I have observered in the 3 of 5 seasons I have been a part of in the *DAMN Battle League.  When someone needs something answered, or perhaps has a problem that needs resolution, they can mostly follow this hierarchy.  When noobs have a problem, they many times turn to respected clan leaders, or well known members in the BL that I consider pillars of the community.  When clan leaders or pillars of this community have problems, they usually go to the admins/mods.  When the admins/mods have any issues, they obviously go to Elan or Mauti.  I know Elan deals more with the website and other stuff, as does Mauti.  The problem I see is that there is an inherent breakdown of this natural chain of command.  When the questions of the noobs is not handled properly, if at all, strange threads begin to appear, flames shoot out the asses of monkeys and poon jockeys, and the strangest uses of emoticons (  :) ;) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ??? ) end up being used.  When clan leaders have problems, many times they run straight to Mauti without following the proper, natural chain of command.  The problem I see is that when clan members do go to the admins/mods first, the response is more often than not extremely slow, uninformative, or disregarded altogether.  If this happens even once, that same clan leader loses faith in this natural system and will inevitably run straight to Mauti in any and all future problems.  Eventually, this happens to all of the leaders at one point or another.  Why are the clan leaders so tight-assed at times?  It happens usually when one leader is answered by Mauti or an admin/mod very quickly, while another leader might never be answered at all.  Now I know a lot of you think that some of the leaders have no reason speaking in public, nor should they procreate.  I agree for the most part, but when you have clan leaders from all parts of the world, all ages, and a million different experiences, you cannot possibly expect the same use of grammar, nor the hoped for eloquence that you never, ever recieve anyway.  What's the point of all of this?

People need order.  People need rules.  Guidelines must be present in order for "order" to exist.  As it is now, everyone just runs around doing whatever they please like a bad rendition of Mad Max by doing things like: flaming the hell out of anyone and everyone for no apparent reason, starting new leagues, and playing Tiger Woods 2003 and iConquer CB's instead of GhR CB's.  For the most part, the moral fabric of the *DAMN BL, if there is such a thing, is falling apart rapidly.

What has been done about this on the part of the folks running this league?  Not much.  A few new admins, some scripting magic, and Evill with these new plug-ins (Yes, I know Evill is unaffiliated with the *DAMN BL, but he did a good job with his new plug-in).

What is being discussed with the new league is that there will be rules that give a black and white foundation of what you can and cannot do in the league itself.  People like to know what they can and cannot do.  If it is clearly written or stated somewhere in the beginning, then any infractions can be dealt with quickly and properly the first time, and without hesitation.  The other thing that is being discussed is how to proactively deal with situations.  What this means is that you actively search for problems before they occur.  There have been many rules in the *DAMN BL, both written and unwritten, that have been pointed out to be flawed, outdated, or biased.  The community expects quick judgement on issues such as these, especially when these issues usually deal with the day to day happenings of the league itself (CB's).  I know I personally hate it when I post concern about a loophole in the rules, or an unclear rule that affects any and all CB's, and then have to go into 10 more CB's in the coming weeks knowing that not only is this issue unresolved, but actually get to watch these issues unfold before my eyes in the middle of CB's.

This is what irks people off to no end, and it has been discussed before.  Ideas about councils, constitutions, more admins, less admins, more clan control, and new or updated rules have constantly been pushed aside.  Why would these topics emerge in the *DAMN BL?  Why would they emerge over and over again concerning some topics?  It's because this is what the community wants, and to the majority of us watching this league grow, we see an absence of concern or ruling from the people who seemingly run this league.  How many seasons will it be?  Will only one major change happen each season?  Will changes only happen at the beginning of new seasons?

The new league that is being discussed is definitely an eye opener to me as it must be to many of you out there.  I have seemed some posts that have blown my mind.  You would never have known some of the feelings of the people out there until it came to offering a new league.  I have seen some people completely condemn the *DAMN BL, and I have also seen some people think it's perfect and that nothing should change.  I do not think that the *DAMN league is perfect, but I would never say it was inadequate or needed to be taken down.

It is my personal feeling that there needs to be more control over what happens in the *DAMN BL.  I also think this control could better be metted out by the clan leaders themselves.  What better way to give ownership of a league to its members than to give them some control over it and the way in which it is run.  There have been some very bone-headed comments over at the .::|N| forums, but none of those comments have been edited or deleted.  Everyone is able to have their fair say, and I must admit, just by the number of posts in the last few days, it should be clear to the *DAMN BL that there are just some unhappy people out there, and it's coming from some pretty well respected members as well!

In closing, I know many of you think I am leading this charge.  In fact, I have had more doubts about this than most of you that are against it altogether!  I am simply helping to voice the opinions of people who lack the wording to do so.  Many of the members of the community have left messages, e-mails, pm's, and NF calls to urge me to keep things going in way of keeping my support up by strongly voicing the convictions of a greater number.  I am not the Napolean some of you make me out to be.  I am simply offering my ideas in a different forum.  They also happen to be the same ideas I have offered on this forum in the past.  I have no control if people choose to listen now versus then.

One thing that does jerk me off a little... Why are there 13 million PC leagues out there, and really only one Mac league?  Why do PC users get to be fickle when it comes to joining leagues, but Mac users just have to take it in the bum and smile.  Maybe having two leagues is a good thing.  Maybe having two leagues shows the entire gaming community (PC & Mac) that Macs are here, and they are here to stay.  Many of you have pointed out how this could be worst than the apocolypse, but I think more of you are much more afraid of the good things that may come out of the creation of a new league.  Think about it.  I think we could all use a little open discussion on this.  It makes you feel better sometimes.

.::|N| Noto

P.S.  To Bucc - I understand that there are some pretty tasteless and tacky posts over at the .::|N| forums.  I have been quite appauled to see some of the post I have seen.  I think people need to get their anger out in the open.  It's one of the many ways we can improve, even if it's not in the manner in which we would rather see.  Either way, I'm sure you can agree it still needs to be done.  Those discussions are completely unbrideled, unedited, and straight from the heart.  I would rather people get it out in the open so we know what they are thinking, rather than down the road see them emerge with ideas of starting a new league.  I think in the case of his new league, there were many signs throughout the past few season that pointed to it happening sometime.

For those of you that wish to view or post your comments or concerns to this talk of a new league, you can do so by going to The .::|N|etwork Forum (http://cwdim.com/forum).  You will have to register in order to post or vote.  This is done only because we feel that anonymity = cowardness.  If you feel strong enough to post something, then I'm sure you can handle people knowing who posted it.  It's only fair.

We overlapped on those posts, I  think.

I have.  I even posted this message on the Network forums Gambit.


Where?  How?  When was it requested?  Where did he say no?


And this will be different in the new league how?  This is a problem that would need to be addressed everywhere, isn't it?


What I see (and I do have a problem with it and would like it fixed) is clans that always appeal to Mauti, instead of taking the admins decision.  Admins make a decision, and whoever it goes against immediately wants Mauti's final decision on the matter (claims of Admin bias flying around).  How many times have you seen this.  Too many is the obvious answer, but some of the people backing the new league are the most guilty of it.


Now, I'll agree with you there.  You have a point.  The constitution was brought up and discussed.  But as a community, did we every agree to any direction?  As I remember it, that idea floundered.  And it was done while we all knew that Mauti was unavailable.  So did anyone ever breach it with him?  I think not.


I agree with you.  There are issues that need to be dealt with, there are improvements that can be made.  My problem is, how many people here bring them up in a clear and logical way to be dealt with here?

And if they can't do it here, why not?  And how will it work elsewhere if they don't solve that problem first?

You make sense in much of your thinking, but I don't see where it actually supports the creation of a new league.  The dots just aren't connected.  You see some problems, and articulate them decently, too bad that kind of effort wasn't put into fixing them here before deciding a new league is necessary.

To me it seems that the new league is struggling with a lot of the basics. I agree wholeheartedly with Gambit. I would like nothing better than taking these great ideas and applying it to the current league. The problem is these ideas are not new and they were basically ignored when they were brought up in the past. I can only hope that these ideas won't be ignored this time.

When does season 6 start?

i cant wait till the next season to start, its gonna be great, a new leauge and everything.  Hopfully things wont gettin heated like they have in the last seaon, lets get it on, and to all that dont like it....eat shit....(im drunk) lol

Two things...

The first,
Do you really mean to tell me that your gonna make a new league and take rapid away from here? If the answer is yes, i may support it.  ;)

And secondly,
I think it has become blatantly obvious tonight that Bucc is a Gaming/Mafia Don who uses Mauti as a puppet. I realize that many of the "bucc is going to take over the internet" theories / fridge is a cheater notions now hold more water.

Cool, you have identified one significant problem with the BL in all that.  And I agree with the basic premise that the "chain of command" for lack of a better term isn't being followed / adhered to very well.  

I agree that there is a problem here, so do others.  But have we really brought up that problem here to be solved in the past?  I don't believe so.  Not in this logical and thought out way.


Yeah, but I say it again.  Has anyone here brought up these issues in a constructive way?  Because I haven't seen it.  Gambit brought up a great point with the constitution, but we dropped that ball, not Mauti.


First, I have to say, I don't agree with the "biased" comment.  I, for one, don't think that Mauti was biased at all in that finals problem.  I think he tried to make a solution, and it just wasn't the best possible.  But I also saw a lot of that flaming monkey crap you spoke of coming from the people involved too.  So that same level of respect and reasoning that you are asking for wasn't demonstrated, in my opinion.

Second, there will be many rules written in any league that will be "pointed out" to be flawed, outdated or just plain wrong.  It's the nature of the beast.  Not everyone will agree with all the rules.  I, for instance, shout out that the whole rule about replays is wrong, but that doesn't mean you happen to agree with it.  Anyone can point these things out, but we, the community, haven't done a great job of trying to make it better here.


Ok, second issue pointed out.  You are unhappy with the turnaround time on resolutions.  Good point.

I do think that it is very related to the first issue though, in that because the process isn't well defined (anymore at least) or followed, that's the root cause of why things take so long.  That's my opinion, and open to debate, but you have to admit that it contributes and they are connected.

Now, I ask, where have we discussed how to fix this problem here?


Pushed aside by whom?  That's my point.  We, the community are the ones that push most of them aside, becuase the discussions often turn into those flaming monkey posts again.  And yes, I am including myself in this bunch.  But I don't agree and would ask for solid examples of Mauti pushing them aside.  Like I said, we killed the constitution, in a few ways.  

And I can show you examples (I've pointed out just a few) of the DAMN BL being responsive to this community as well.  I'll even give you another real quick.  There's going to be an AA ladder added.  Now I think this is as much a waste of time as the R6 ladder is today, but that's ok, the league is still responding to the community because more spoke for it then against it.  Funny how that works here when I keep hearing people say it doesn't.


Ok, we are up to 3 issues and 1 suggestion.  I don't happen to agree with your suggestion completely (I voiced concerns with it back in the constitution threads), but it's worth debate, I'll give you that.


Sure, I'm not very happy right now.  I've said so all season.  But I blame the community, not the ladder myself.


That's because you actually are leading it.  You are out there in the front, just like I'm "leading" the opposition to it right now.


Ah, and there's the rub that really pisses me off.  Doing it in a different forum.  

I'm sorry Noto, but I don't think you, or many others that are cheering you on in this, have done a very good job of offering your ideas in this forum.  I know that the majority of changes that I've seen in the BL have all come from the community.

Maybe your ideas are just more receptive to that smaller audience, maybe you are articulating them in a much better way, maybe something else I don't see.  Probably all of the above.  But I don't think you gave the concerted effort to change them here.  And personally, bringing them up in a flame ridden thread isn't the way, and I've seen that said a few times in the Network forums to boot.


Ok, now I came here from the PC gaming community, if you can call it that.  You see, what I think makes Mac's special is that sense of community.  And it's that community that you are actively trying to split that irks me.  

Why do PC users get to be fickle?  When was that a good thing?

Sorry, but I'm taking exception to the "take it in the bum and smile".  I really am since I can only think of one issue I've ever brought up here that wasn't addressed.  I may not have been happy with the answer on everything, but they were all (but one) addressed.  And I can forgive the one, I only bring it up to be honest about it.  Yeah, shit happens, but not as often as you are making it sound with that comment.

One more thing.  The reason we shouldn't have more then one league is pretty simple.  We don't have a big enough community to support them both well.  We should pool our resources, not divide them.

If you don't believe me, look at all the empty leagues.  How active is MaG League?  They have ladders for just about anything, and the community decides all.  How many here use them?  Look at how many have tried to start up.  What do you think is more fun, a league with 5 clans in it, or a clan with 30?


Yep, and I'd had hoped to see that here.


I happen to agree with that too.  The only reason I posted this in the DAMN Forums (besides the Network Forums) is because I talked to a few people on GR about it that were clueless.  They haven't gone to your site and know nothing about it.  But yes, by all means, anyone interested should read for themselves and comment on it openly.

In conclusion Noto, all you have really pointed out here are 3 issues.  They may be important, even critical, but just 3.  Think about that.  I'll ignore the anger and illogical posts for a moment, and look at just this one.  

What I see is you thinking the BL is spinning downhill fast because of these 3 important issues, and I've seen you articulate them well.  What I haven't seen is you try to solve them here, with that same intelligence, thought and consideration.  Those are all valid points, even if I don't agree with you completely, they are very worthy of discussion.  However, I think you guys put the solution before the problem.  I think you guys decided that the DAMN BL was un-fixable before you gave it half the effort that you have already given this new league.  

I am here to tell you that you are wrong about it.  I saw major issues addressed last season, and the season before, all brought up well and discussed.  I think discussing your problems here would be great.  Then, and only then, if Mauti blew them off (which I can't imagine happening) I would follow you to a new ladder.  But I honestly don't think you, and especially some others that are venting on your forums, have put forth that effort here.  

I don't really have anything new to add to this discussion at this point, but I would like to voice strong support for everything bucc has said thus far.

3 issues, issues that have not thus far been publicly discussed on this forum, seem to be the driving force behind this rebellion.

Even the founders of this great nation of ours recognized that revolution is only appropriate when all other options have been exhausted. Clearly, a sincere attempt to fix this league has not been made.

I hope that now that these issues are out in the open, we can discuss and deal with them in a straitforward and rational matter and not let quick tempers cause us to make rash decisions without fully considering the rammifications of our actions.

Noto, you are right concerning the point that people need rules. Thats why there are the *DAMN BL rules, so that people can measure their skills by playing with a common ruleset. These rules have evolved in the last 3 1/2 years, and while there've always been some problems with various points, we have always tried to satisfy the majority. Note the choice of words: Majority, not everyone. It's true that this may disappoint some people, but it's simply not possible to satisfy everyone's needs.

To counter that, we've always said that these rules should be considered strong guidelines, especially the rules concerning the battle times. Thats why the rule says:
Note the use of the world "default". Personally, I don't understand why this discussion has started, but i'll have to accept it.

As I understand it, this whole discussion has started because you couldn't agree with the Core clan on a time to CB. I have to ask you: why didn't you check your calendars a few days earlier, when you already knew that you'd advance to the finals?


Another point you've brought up is the missing possibility to have a say in how the league is run. I think Bucc has mostly pointed out my opinion on this.
So you want to run your new league by committee. I wonder how long it be until your council will be a big, bloated administrative apparatus that has to discuss every smallest issue and can't come to a decision because of its size. I applaud you because you are willing to start this experiment, but I think that this is a step in the wrong direction.

I think that you've forgotten one thing: a gaming league is not a nation! In some points, it resembles a nation, because there are rules, one or more rulers, and the people (= clans). But you can't run a gaming league like a democracy.

*DAMN Elandrion

This new league is doomed to fail. Why?
Well, have you ever tried starting something from scratch with a total democracy? Good luck. The way I see it, the people engaged in this new league fall into a few categories:

* The naive and uninformed:     They actually think they are doing something good, but doesn't really know what it is they are doing.
* The bitter:     They know it is better to stick with *DAMN but are too proud.
* The school lefties:    Nuff said? People who jump at every opportunity to be involved.

I have seen no creative outcome of the new league yet. You have to be Legolas to see the light in the end of this tunnel.

To Noto: I actually think the majority of people support DAMN. Just because ou got all the school lefties that love to beat the war drum doesn't mean you have the community behind you.

To Bucc: You are hereby declarded my hero. Stand strong.

you ungratefull ignorant little pussies! mauti doesn't even play much anymore, hardly comes on gr anymore, yet still maintains the damn site and the bl. he even kept it going while he served in the military. so now two clans want to start their own battle league...i have a question for the network...what's gonna happen when it's only you and the collective on the ladder, and the collective forfeits before the last finals cb? gonna come crawling back to the *DAMN ladder? i hope not. a similar thing happened last season, a top clan had a problem with the ladder and dropped out right before the finals. they listened to reason, came back on the ladder and proceeded to win it all. for this BTs was applauded by many. after witnessing this seasons fiasco i applaud BTs once more. infact i'm gonna get off my couch and give them my own little standing ovation.  other clans have tried to make new battle leagues in the past (two last season alone). how many cb's were played in their ladders this year? none, they didn't make it. you kids should support and thank mauti and the *DAMN clan for everything they provide to all mac clancy players..... while they still support you!

This is the situation:
We have a big, big ship called the *DAMN battle league, and we are a set of pirates. The captain of the ship is Captain Mauti, the most fearless admin on all of the forum seas...
Now, after a tough battle and an attempt at mutiny, our beautiful boat is not as beautiful anymore... The sails are down, we are leaking and our cannons are all full with birds' nests. So what do we do? How can we plunder the seven seas with a ship like this? Luckily, Noto has the solution:

Let's all desert the ship and try our luck in one of the dinghies!

People rejoice! In a dinghy, you don't have to put sails up (we all know this is a bitch) and hey, we can all play captain! Shit, we could row the dinghy together! Then, one day, the Dinghy Pirates will attack *DAMN to claim the title of Ruler of the Mac Gaming Community.

mutiny is an offence punishable by death! now walk the plank motherfuckers!

As I said- I digressed.


That may or may not be true; I have no way of knowing how much hierarchy skipping goes on as I barely have time to keep up with what's going on in my own clan during the season. The issue I was referring to in my post I ended up addressing directly to Mauti only after waiting two days and getting no action. The issue I brought up led to the creation of the 'waiting period' for new players joining a clan during the season, so maybe it was just a matter of some things being too big for Admins to rule on anyways.


And I will agree with you (I am getting all warm and fuzzy with all the ageement happening) that the (re)constitution movement kind of evaporated into the ether. Maybe the fact that Mauti was in fact on vacation (as were lots of people... it was vacation season) kind of made the whole issue difficult to progress with at that time.
And so here we are again with the same issue augmented with another season's worth of experiences which indicate something must be changed.


Understandably, you seem to think I am throwing my energy fully into the creation of a new league. all my initial posts on this topic were on the Network site on Friday and related specifically to issues a new league would need to address. So I will now set my record straight and voice what I would like to  see happen in whatever league I am involved in:

Admins appointed directly from the clans- one per each clan that has participated in at least one full season on the BL (demonstrating stability of some degree). The resulting pool of admins would then be hopefully large enough to deal with each issue as it comes up in a timely fashion, with the added benefit of (hopefully) ensuring that no admins would have to deal with a ruling that directly affects their own clan.

 
Elandrion's concern is one possible outcome: another possibility (which I see as much more likely) is that the committe would end up having a problem with UNDERinvolvement and a smaller subset of the appointed reps  would actually end up running the show and making the rulings. What makes it all a risk worth taking in my opinion is no matter what happens, the clans would have nobody but themselves to blame should things go awry. No unaccountable admins, no feelings of only indirect ability to effect policy.

There are certainly plenty of questions that would need to be addressed should such a system be implemented. As I implied in a previous post, I also feel that ultimately a single person must be in a position to serve as arbiter. Here, it is Mauti. no matter how much a new league would be structured to avoid it, someone would ultimately end up falling into a similar role.

As I have only been around for a couple seasons and have for the most part successfully avoided getting too deeply involved in the treacherous waters of the politics here, could someone please bring me up to speed on how the current admins have come to be admins, and for how long they have been admins? On a related point- is there any chance that 'admin burnout' could be an issue that might be addressed by rotating admins out (ack- term limits)?

I have only been involved in the DAMN BL for a little over one season, but I think it is run pretty well.  From my experiences with a community this small, all I can offer is this:  United We Stand, Divided We Fall.  I think this community is just too small for more than one Ladder.  So, I am voicing (or writing, as the case may be) my support for only one Mac Gaming Ladder....this one. :)

Disclaimer:
The preceding statement was made on my own free will without Mauti, Elan, Bucc, or anybody else holding a gun to my head.  Thank You.

Dear Gambit and friends,
On this ladder, you also have no one but yourself to blame. You depend too often on an admin for ruling, and when he finally does, you are not happy with it. No political structure in the world can help you.

Dear Cutter,
Good point with the C vs N cb. I laughed at that one. I will quote Homer: "Hah! It's funny cuz it's true!"

Back to Gambit's post:
I've been reading on the Network forums and I have to say... it looks doomed to fail miserably. But well, since so many of the pillars of this new ram-shackle structure are too proud to admit they are/were wrong, I don't really think this will ever be acknowledged. However, using half the energy you used for posting in the Network-forums you could have formulated a decent and perhaps even good thread in THIS forum. ( Don't kid yourelf, guys, you haven't)

To the new ladder:
"I have nothing good to say so I refuse to listen to everyone else" (The problems have already begun being solved. Open your proud eyes and work with the team here.

lol Acri I really like your pirate-analogy!

Elan

And with a name like Buccaneer, you know I'm loving it.  =D

lol, XFL, USFL, ABA, WUSA, WNBA, WFL, ABL, WBL, IHL, WHA, NASL.....
will the list get longer?

Let's just see how this new league pans out.  Because these too thought they had a great alternative to something that was already there.

Only time will tell

See now I'm getting confused about the structure of the BL... who else are we to depend on for rulings?


Re-reading your posts in THIS thread, I don't see a lot of substance that contributes to a solution... unless you count witty analogies intended to belittle others as a means of improving the BL.

Now. to save you the effort of scrolling up a few lines and having to find it for yourself, I will quote myself:


After reading a majority of what has been expressed in both the Network forums as well as here in this thread and that sorry thread that started out as a place to discuss the finals, I have not only been persuaded to take an active role in discussing the issues that have led to the current state of affairs. I am also now convinced that every effort should be made to do it from within the framework of the existing league before fracturing what is already a painfully small community. PC players can afford to stomp off in a huff and form a new league if they don't like the league's web banner- there are millions of them. We owe it not just to ourselves, or our platform, or even Mauti- we owe it to each other to maintain as all-inclusive a ladder system as possible.

My proposed solution is obviously painted in very broad strokes, but it's something on the canvas. It may not even be a part of what eventually gets decided. At the very least lets all get pointed in the direction of a solution and cut out the sniping from the cheap seats. Please.  

To anyone with the knowledge- how do you do a quote which is attributed? I hatehaving quotes without a reference :(

You see bucc, I have a problem.  This problem is the direct reasoning for my support of a new league.

Heres the problem:

Noto identified and we agreed with that hiearchy for the most part.  Bucc, you know me a bit better than the other "Pillars."  I have a lot of ideas, and the vast majority of them would improve the BL in one way or another.  I don't bother posting them if I haven't analyzed the heck out of em.  But the community as a whole has heard none of them.  Why?

I have several threads, still here on the forum, and even a pm to Mauti.  One of them is from early season 4.  In each I present a strong case for a different small change in the common workings of this league.  And do you know what response I got?  Until I began jumping around and waving my arms, not one mod even posted a "shut up ara."  Once I made a n00b of myself to get noticed, Mauti graced my threads with a post each.  The first was basically a "you can do it, but we arent touching it" and the second was a weak counter arguement which had he read the mainstream threads (not even required that he read mine) he would have known was false.  The pm has yet to have a reply, a month or two running now.

Now I'm not dense enough to believe that Mauti is at fault.  He gave me more consideration that I had expected in the one thread.  But the fact is nothing has come of them.  Not a thing.  Were I in your position as a respected person, or a mod myself, these simple ideas of mine would be among the changes you played with every cb of this 5th season.

And do you know the one simple reason why I am not a well known and founding member of the community here?  I did not play R6 or RS.  Thats it.  Simply because I haven't been around as long everyone views me as (dare I use the term) a whining n00b.  Heck, even my clan has done this.  I'm certainly not new to gameranger, my user number is 10k+ lower than nearly all of this gaming community.  Yeah, I was obsessed with gameranger when Risk 2 was in the top 10 most played games.  I tried to make a league for that too, but thats for another time.  It failed due to too few players btw, shows you how much GR has grown.

I've typed too long already so I will conclude.  The fact that my ideas are heard less that those of RS players is a bunch of crap.  However, its entirely expected in a league with a structure like this one.  Sure, I love having a league, and I would never just leave this BL due to this minor issue.  However, when presented with the opportunity to improve/frame the league instead of merely participate in it, how can I refuse?  To do so is sentencing myself to talk to walls when I have ideas.  To do so is to refuse myself equal treatment by the league.  Sure, I will always be a post-RS player to my clan, but no longer will the rules I play by be determined almost soley by RS players.

how bout an R6 player? ;)

Aramarth, all I can say is that I didn't notice them either.  

You are right, I do know you.  I know that you aren't a dumbass and your ideas are at least worthy of discussion.  But for some reason, one that I can't name right now, they didn't stand out.  But that's something that can be addressed.

One thing you have to understand about the hierarchy here.  The mods/admins don't really deal with the rules changes.  They deal with the day to day operations.  CB disputes, moderating, clearification, etc.  Rule changes are done at the Mauti level.  I don't think this is written anywhere, but it is what I've observed.  So expecting the admins to post on rule changes is a misunderstanding of that hierarchy (my opinion anyway).


See, i completely disagree with that.  I wasn't an RS player here, or R6.  I've only been here a little over a year.  But you named me as one of the pillars.  I get respect (as far as my opinions being listened to and considered) based more upon how well I think them through and present them (and being persistent about them like with Warzone).  

My voice is heard because I think things out, and bury you in the logic of the situation.  Not because I played on this league for a long time.


If you leave here, you are refusing just that.  You have the opportunity right here, right now, to improve and change the shape of this league.  The question you asked is the same I ask; how can you refuse?


The RS players is a misconception that you have.  Yes, many of the voices here, the so called "pillars" played R6 or RS.  That wouldn't be any different in a new BL either.  Why?  Because the majority of the players that play GhR were RS or R6 players.  

I do understand that you feel the new BL would be more open to YOUR ideas.  But I don't agree with your opinion.  And more than that, I think that if your ideas were not being heard, that's one of the problems we need to fix here and now.


One more short note.  A few people here and elsewhere have joked about me being Mauti's puppet or enforcer.  But to be honest, Mauti and I don't talk, and aren't friends even.  We don't agree on many thing.  But (and this is a big, Jeb wants to nail it size but) I respect him.  And not just for what he's done here, all the effort and time, though that would be enough to earn my respect.  I respect him for the same reason I respect most of the subset here that have earned this distinction.  He's intelligent, he thinks out and reasons his decisions / opinions and he considers the well thought out and articulated opinions of others.  I don't blame him for not responding to the not well articulated or bitchy posts.  But when someone makes an honest suggestion on how to improve things, he does consider it and respond.

I may have called him an asshole when I thought he was being one, and even have meant it.  But overall, he has my respect, and he's shown it back as much as I've shown him.

Glad this thread has moved "out in the open" so we can get more feedback on everything. I've been asking from the get-go to have the discussion moved off the N forums, since I knew we would end up with all the negative reactions including the N-effect as one of the reasons not to start a new league. Please, N has nothing to do with it, any more than any other clan whose members have been in the discussions. And these discussiond date back to well before this season started, much less the arguments we had in the finals.

Fah- sure there have been lots of leagues that started and failed in every sport there is. But not all of them fail, lest we would have none. MLB is composed of two leagues which once competed. Ditto in other sports.  US Football had a recent failure, sure. But without that upstart league, we would not have the NFL we have today. Designer cheerleaders, better camera coverage, better commentary. You can say it would have happened anyway, but that's like saying IE would be just as good if there was never a netscape. And what about safari? Or Apple Computers? Come on. Even your donkey could see through that one.

Acri, I loved the pirate analogy as well. Nice device for putting the argument in a favorable light for your views. Let me make a slight twist, and see if it still works to elicit the feelings yours did:

Posted by: z][t-Acri    Posted on: November 16, 2003, 07:24:09 AM

This is the situation:
We have a big, big ship called the *DAMN battle league, and we are a set of pirates. The captain of the ship is Captain Mauti, the most fearless admin on all of the forum seas...
Now, after a tough battle and an attempt at mutiny, our beautiful boat is not as beautiful anymore... The sails are down, we are leaking and our cannons are all full with birds' nests. So what do we do? How can we plunder the seven seas with a ship like this? Luckily, Noto has the solution:
Let's all desert the ship and try our luck in one of the dinghies!
People rejoice! In a dinghy, you don't have to put sails up (we all know this is a bitch) and hey, we can all play captain! Shit, we could row the dinghy together! Then, one day, the Dinghy Pirates will attack *DAMN to claim the title of Ruler of the Mac Gaming Community.

modifications:

The pirate Mauti has a collection of officers. He deleagtes a lot of authority to them, but no one, the captain, the officers, the crew, seem to know who exactly should address what issues. In a vague sense they do, but lots of the crews complaints fall between our rotting floorboards.

The crew is feeling particularly rambunctious one dark night. They set off in a dinghy, and by candle-light discuss the problems, and some ideas they share for solving them. They have set off in dinghies before, when they needed a break away from the ears of the officers, who occasionally stifle the talk before it gets going anywhere. This time however, it seems like there's a lot more crew in the dinghy than before, and they actually get lots of input and make some progress. They start wondering, "why should we go back to the ship anyway?"

Sure, they owe a lot to the captain and officers for teaching them basic seamanship, etc etc. But this ain't no slave-ship, mateys. The crew has all the oars.

Now, at first light the officers see the dinghy is missing, and the crew paddles back within earshot to let them know what is going on. At first, the officers scream and yell at them to get back on board. "You'll never make it you barnacle busting losers!"

The crew starts paddling away. Next, the officers start yelling out more comforting vacissitudes, and start acting like they might miss the crew if they leave. They say they "feel the pain" of the crew, and want them to come back and all fix the ship together.

So, the crew starts wondering, "hey, if we never left in our dinghy, would they care this much? Do they really want to change things, or do they finally realize we need each other, not that we OWE them everything for all time?" The crew starts circling the ship, chatting with friendly officers and crew still on board, wondering where to go, and what ever happened to all those bull-whipping cat-o-nine-tails wielding officers they remember from before. Are they laying in wait, ready to beat the mutineers to a pulp, and lock up all the oars, or what?

I personally want a more transparent and responsive leadership for the league. I will gladly deal with it being more cumbersome, if it is the price for knowing where people stand and what is happening. Sure, a dictatorship runs smoother than a democracy. Of course. But at what price?

Heh, nice work Soc.  I can definitely see the point of view for wanting a new league.

But first and foremost.  This is all due to people wanting to be heard and for better understanding so that the competition can be more fair.  I for one think that this can be accomplished just with reason and not mutiny.  

For one, Mauti and the hated admins have actually let this conversation continue on the *Damn forums.  If you ask me, this is a great showing of restraint and understanding from them itself.  Any talk of another league on my thread would have been shut down immediately.  Maybe just post your gripes and the problems that could be solved for next season.  This seems more of a power struggle than just trying to form a new panacea.  

I am just saddened that this thread did get moved hear.  Eventhough it directly involves the *Damn league, it is a blatant throwing of mud in their faces.  I mean, quietly form the league on it's own turf.  You never saw XFL advertising and tearing down the NFL on NFL.com.  It's just wrong.

I am not saying I am 100% against the league.  But at least be respectful and appreciate what is already here.  If you nuture and develop what already exists, then you can improve upon it.  If you want to go and create direct competition, well state it, do it, and sell it with your own advertising space, not theirs.

that is all

bucc posted this thread, to cc: a post he made on the other forum. that other thread has now died and moved here.

this is a league, right? some people used the term 'community' which i love.

the fact that the thread lives here now is testament to their tolerance, sure. but also that we WANT the community, we want the problems addressed, and aren't trying to sneak around to do it. Obviously, we're now posting here instead of there because we hope it can get solved here.

but make no mistake- this is only getting this attention now because c| put their butts on the line and dropped from the finals, and serious talk of more than half the active clans leaving came to light.

if N had said, we're unhappy and we're leaving, we would have been lucky to leave without a sore backside from all the bootprints.

I can't wait to see you in that dinghy when the first really big storm comes up....you'll sink faster than a mafia informant with concrete shoes.

Bucc what all I typed meant was that I do not have the opportunity to change the *DAMN BL.  Included above are the reasons why I believe this.  I have been given no reason aside from your saying it that I should believe otherwise.  What is there to suggest I have a voice?  What magical change will occur that will cause Mauti to hear me and respond, or someone to tell him as an intermediate between us?  Bucc, I waited for that, and it didn't happen.  A lot of things in life are deadlines, and afterwards all arguement is irrelevant because the time for action has passed.  Enter the new battle league, stage left.  This league hasn't met some deadlines, mine being the least important of them.

Sorry I have to start sounding cheesy... but Mauti is not the one who has to change. We, as a community, must change.

Aramarth: You need to learn how democracy works, man. You HAVE a voice, but alone, it is not loud enough. Get some friends behind you and start a well-structured topic. (No this is not done often). If you want Mauti to change something, talk to people on GR/Forum until you know EXACTLY what you want and how you want it. When that is done, send it to an admin like Civic (he's the nicest) and he will peer through it and pass it over to Mauti and Elandrion. This saves Mauti from a hundred of loose threads that he has to weave a sweater out of!

Chain of events:
Aramarth gets idea => Aramarth talks to clan => Clan says it's a good idea => Clan contacts other clans => They say it's a good idea => Clans together formulate the idea until it's perfect => Clans send formulated idea to an admin => Admin says "wow aramarth is so clever" and sends it to Mauti!

Don't be spoiled! You can't expect people to pick you out of the crowd of ideas! Get structured! Get organized!
Vote *DAMN for only battle league!

soc: two clans doesn't exactly count as half of the active clans

Don't lecture me on democracy.  For one, this league isn't one, period.  For another, I am passing my college government course with flying colors as we speak.  And do you know what I have learned from that class?  Just what I posted here.  Some people get heard more than others.  And in a system where any and every change is dependent upon the graces/free time of Mauti, there is no way to fight it.

cutter: read the list of clans which participated in more than 5 cbs this past season.  Seven of them claimed to have interest in another ladder, and all of those seven finished in the top 11.  This movement is made by the meat of the ladder, and that is why this is such a large issue.  Please try to read more than the last 3 posts when you make yours.

Posted by: z][t-Acri


if only it worked like that. what I've been seeing is this:
Aramarth gets idea => Aramarth talks to clan => Clan says it's a good idea => Ara starts a thread on forums, others in clan post supporting verbage => People who don't like ara or his clan post counter-arguments, off-topic remarks, and "flaming monkeys" => a moderator or admin may or may not check in at some point, may or may not post anything useful or make suggestions => thread eventually works it's way down the thread list => thread is forgotten
this is generally what I've seen. of course sometimes the mods or admins might lock the thread or delete or edit posts instead, but that's not helping either.
Look, there are a lot of people asking these questions about what is wrong with the league and how to improve it. Some are being productive, some are not. The discussions on the N forum are still going strong.
This DAMN league is as big and strong as it has become due to a lot of underappreciated hard work from a group of great guys. I believe that. I also believe it has become too much for them, and their frustration has become more and more obvious. They may not want to let go of the reigns because they built this thing from scratch. It's understandable. But we ALL have to do what's right for the larger community. It's not up to anyone to just give in right now. If the old-league people just give in, it wouldn't be right. Same for the new-league supporters. Both sides have lots of valid issues to work out. Giving up on one side or the other is a guaranteed failure for everyone.

The funny thing is that you guys (Network) talk about how most of the community is leaving and and how most of the community hates me but the fact of the matter is that it is only "The Network" saying this. I too agree there are some problems with the BL but we address those problems and improve on it each and every season. As for me...I really have no idea why you guys hate me so much, because I have you on block or because of some words had between me and your clan in the past, but lets give it a truce.

Noto now has admin access to our BL admin area, he can read up on how fair and impartial I really am. Do you really think I would have been here for over 2 years now if I wasn't doing my job the best I can. I am really an ambassador for all clans. I really dont know how i can stress this to you guys anymore.

greetz,
voo

Either I wasn't clear, or you need to read it again.

First, your premise that you have to be a RS or R6 vet to be heard was flawed.  I pointed that out with a prime example.

Second, what was wrong with my reasons?  Did you consider them?  I mean, maybe part of it is your fault, how or when you bring it up?  Like I said, I don't even remember seeing your suggestions, and I read a lot.  So they weren't very memorable.  

Third, I also said that this is one problem that we could look into solving here too.

Fourth, it's not like you have really been banging your head against the wall, because that would have gotten more notice.

Soc,

I think you are dead wrong in the "this is what I've seen" part.  I'm going to give you some big examples.

1) Point System
2) Warzone
3) Siege
4) AA Ladder
5) Playoff System

Those were all changes all from suggestions in this forum.  How much plainer can I make it?

Sorry Soc, but that's a load of crap.  I was against it from the first time it was mentioned to me on GR, and even before that (see last season).  And as you pointed out, I'm the one bringing it out to the forefront.

One more note, the league is a subset of the community.  The community is the Mac Gaming Community.  We are a small enough group, and this small of a community can't really support two leagues.  Hope that makes it more clear for you.

This league, will not be named after a clan.  It will be named after Gaming for the Mac?, and that's what counts here.  People act as if change is bad, but guess what, change is good.  Especially when change is being directed by mature players, that have seen the flaws in other leagues(like the *DAMN BL), and are simply out to create something for the players, by the players.  Don't get me wrong, Mauti does play and all, but he mostly goes by what his buddies tell him.  He's addressed issues, after his buddies let him know it's a bigger problem than what he thinks.  With all that being said, we should not be putting pressure into one person, when there's so many others available, willing, and capable of doing it.  Even doing it better, since they'd be more dedicated, and happen to be more active.  Again, change is not bad, and anybody that tells you it is, is stuck in the old.  

Out with the old, in with the new. ;)

Besides, all this energy, needs to elaborate, and become the good thing it's meant to be.  Now I don't want to hear negative remarks about it, unless you can make actual sense.  The simple "*DAMN's been providing for us" arguement, just isn't going to cut it.  We simply say Thank You for all your services, and come have fun in these new ladders created for the people, by the people.  All in all, have a good day. -Rapid 8)[/size]

I rest my case.

Argh. What happened to the days of blind loyalty? There's only problems with the *DAMN League because you guys make problems. All of the things people argue about are very minor problems, but people create these gigantic ordeals out of them. Besides, talking about creating new leagues and whatnot is extremely rude, especially on *DAMN's own forums. Start your own forums to plan it, don't bring this garbage here. I'm sure a few people have stated what I've already stated, but I've only read Bucc's first post, and skimmed the last page. Not very smart of me, but still. I will never join another Mac League for R6, RS, or GhR unless Mauti and every *DAMN member perishes when the Apocolypse comes. Even then, I'll be dead too, so I won't be able to join. So there!
I'm also very disgusted with how the VOLUNTEER Battle League Administrators are treated by you disrespectful bastards. Once again, see my comment about blind loyalty. They're all nice guys, they aren't biased, they aren't out to get everybody. They rarely lose their temper, and when they do, that's only after being backed into a corner and constantly flamed. If they were so bad, 75% of the people on the forums would have been banned by now. They really should ban people because I don't know how they tolerate the crap they get. People think that just because they're on the internet they don't have to show proper respect to their peers and...elders. ;)
Anyways, if you're going to start your new league, just leave now, and never come back. You've taken for granted everything Mauti and the rest of the *DAMN staff has given you. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
If Mauti and the *DAMN Admins were women, and I were an old-school Mormon, I'd marry every one of them.

Rapid, the "out with the old" may apply to things that have become obsolete, but if you want to have a cliche war here, I'd throw this in: If it 'aint broken, why fix it?

The *DAMN Battle League is by far the most complete ladder out there, and let's be honest, no matter how good the intentions of another league - how good their designers are, or how smart the creaters are, they're years behind *DAMN.

You think Mauti just goes along with what is "buddys" think? True, he often goes along with what the moderators think; why? Because it's our job to look at issues and see through them, as is his, so it only makes sense that we'd think alike.

And, as you said: All in all, have a nice day. ;)

it's broke, it's been broke, and there have been no attempts to fix it...   hell, there's not even RESPECT FOR OTHERS established here(with all the flames and biased attitudes towards certain people/clans)

You do know that instead of wasting your energy here in this debate where no one is gaining any ground you could devote your energies to a thread along the lines of ""Improvements and rule suggestions for Season 6." Just a thought....

Ahh. Typhy, didn't notice you became a Mod. Congrats. (Sorry for the spam, feel free to use your Moderating powers to delete this post)  ;)

Start off by having a minimum age of 18, to be a BL admin 'No offense to any present underage BL admins'.  It's been proven many times the younger ones are not mature enough to handle the international responsibility of just about anything.  Not to mention that's all that's being said over at the N forums.  15 year olds, should not be our "appointed" BL admins

Headhunter, obviously most people don't think that it's "broke", who should *DAMN aim to please? The majority of the people, or the very limited amount of people who dislike it? It's a commonly known fact that everyone can't be happy with everything.

Guest, it's a computer game; the majority of the people who play it are between ages 13 and 18, shouldn't the people in charge be the same age as the majority of the players?

I don't see how age is going to effect anything. We make our choices based upon our knowledge of the incodent ( refering to disputed CBs ), and our knowledge of the game. Why would someone older have better knowledge of the dispute or game?

I just have to ask this, do you know what international means? It means involving two or more nations. Perhaps I'm not "mature" enough to understand how a dispute over a CB is an international incodent?  

Yep, just like the respect you have by coming in here under an alias.  Which is even forbidden in the new leagues forum, isn't it?

People that do the shit that you are doing right here are part of the problem, not the solution.

Guest, first, grow some balls, use your real name, just like was discussed over at the N forums.

Second, try responding to the facts (posted in both forums, btw) that A) Age, religion, color, sex or location shouldn't matter in an admin.  Only if they do a good job or not.  And B) in the threads that have been posted here asking for their removal in the past, the majority spoke up for them.  Which means in YOUR league, they would have stayed too.

Exactly, Bucc. Typhy is one of the more younger fellas in the forum, but he's one of the few that uses clear, concise language in his posts. He is extremely mature, more mature than a good portion of the people on this forum. While we don't see eye to eye on many (most) issues, I have deep respect for the guy. So you, sir, just go straight to hell. Not posting using your name shows that you're immature and a coward, and I sure hope you never become an admin in *DAMN or even in the Other League. Stop being so hypocritical.

"another biased bl league mod!!!!"

He could have made up his age and no one would have ever known the difference, hell I guesses he was 26 before i found out...although how can we really know that either...we really only have his conduct to go by...

Go bucc! You put my finnish thoughts into english words  :)

My thoughts on the new league is that its a stupid idea...
and i probably should have said this first, but whatever, i like all you guys, and respect the clans involved (except rapid, i hope he gets aids from bondo).

When i first heard about it, i thought good things (no people of france), but then i started to realize that its a league that is being built because you don't like someone. Granted, i hate most people on gameranger, but i don't go around making new ladders like some internet gaming hoochie.  I notice the same type of talk from permabannees who always talk about how they are gonna make a new gaming client that isn't run by a pompous asshole, but it never has worked out.

Another issue i have with your system, is that from what i've seen, there doesn't appear to be a central leader(s). That can be an issue, as far as a struggle for power, which direction to lead the league, or personal disputes (which is why you formed the new ladder), its only a matter of time...

-jeb

Soc: That scenario would not occur with my chain of events. This is what you have to realize. YOU have to change a LOT, Mauti has to change very little.
If you formulate the idea until it is perfect, post a thread and let people discuss. Sure, people flame, but some good remarks might come out of it and you MIGHT rephrase your idea and then send it to an admin. Don't give me any bullshit about this being Mauti's fault. If I was mauti I would TOTALLY ignore anything unstructured.

Ever heard of someone who got an idea, discussed it with 6 friends and then tried to contact the president? Get real. Honestly. Think about what you are saying here. This is a democracy and you guys had better treat it with respect.

Vote *DAMN for only ladder

A vote for *DAMN is a vote for the people!

Vote *DAMN! Vote organization!

Vote New League and join the Lamer Union...

I agree with Jeb.

The fact that the league will have clan-admins isn't going to solve the problems, there will be new ones:
ie. one clan is accused for glitching, but its really hard to tell if the player is glitching or not, so it goes to the admins (who are all part of a clan playin in the league)
you'll get the following situations:
* I hate that clan, lets find another admin and make it so they have to forfeit, that would be so cool, hehe...
* Hey those guys are in front of us in the league (us 3rd them 2nd), he asks the admin (who's clan is in 4th place) to help him to make them forfeit. They both gain a spot...
* Or even a mixture of both...

Well here you have your democracy. You need a neutral leader to solve those problems. Which you won't have because all clans are participating on the ladder. On DAMN we have Mauti who's tryin to deal with that kind of stuff, and he does a pretty well. (but hey you can blame me, I'm EURO).

The point of this "new league" is to get more in control, like 2 clans trying to state, 2 clans who are always replying on posts, 2 clans (so it seems to me) who are trying to take the leadership of this new league... You can try and state as much as you want that other clans are involved, but where are their reactions? Oh yes, on the other forum... It seems to me your league isn't getting as much backup as you want... Try some better advertisement.

Oh maybe I will participate in it, but only as a fun ladder, like I did with the BTs ladders, they were fun. But DAMN will always be the N? 1

Try putting up some rules first, see how well you can handle the US - Euro conflicts... (oh yes, forgot about the 3 ladders where the Euro's will always have to fight 2, maybe 3 of the same clans...) And who's gonna set up these rules? .::|N| , c| ? (oh yes, the community)
Well then I wish you GOOD LUCK, you'll need it. Because your league will be battled on the forums... if it even starts... You'll get the same problems as here: the rules will always be an arguement and it takes weeks to solve some problems, and you'll always have to dissapoint some ppl. But it won't be c| or .::|N| anymore, no now it will be l ! l or  [OZ] (the clan names are examples!!!!!!)

I do agree with the admins: they have to be ppl who play the game. But didn't we get Civic as a new admin and now Noto also...
>> and age doesn't reflect knowledge<<

That's it for now...

So maybe now its time to hear the other clans involved in the league... (and I know |GM| is part of it...) or is it gonna be .::|N| and c| again...

th.Sent

Some very fair points. I agree with most of them.

? The fact that N and c are the only ones sticking their necks out on this thread says more about the clans who were "big talkers" on the new forum, and seem to now be adopting some kind of wait-and-see attitude. The other forum was very active with lots of decisive input from other clans. Some have changed their tune, but mostly they are now silent. I interpret this to mean that they don't want to take sides in front of the DAMN crowd, in case they want to come back here and avoid future hard feelings.

? Stop accusing N of dragging this discussion onto the DAMN forum. Bucc brought it here, not us. He's the one who started this thread, right? Should be obvious. If the point is to have a thread where you can all bash us without any response, tell me so and I'll delete my account here. I thought forum meant discussion, not soap-box.

? My personal logic for the new league was that it seemed like the BL was becoming increasingly difficult for Mauti and the admins to deal with. I felt like it wasn't fun for them anymore. Too much complaining, not enough constructive discussion, and absolutley NO appreciation for all the hard work. I DO APPRECIATE IT. I thought you all would initially get upset about the new league, and then realize you were being handed the way out you deeply wanted. I now believe I was wrong. I think you really want to keep doing it, that you still enjoy it, and want to make it work. Good. Great. Let's do it by working together on the issues. Let's start a new thread and discuss them. People can choose to participate or not.

? Voodoo- I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I think you are a decent, fair guy. I bashed you in another thread for no reason, and the way you reacted taught me something. I'm sorry for being hard on you. We all lose control sometimes. I hope there's no hard feelings. Same goes for anyone else who beat my skull in on that thread. I deserved it.

? Not every thread needs to be a constructive issue-forwarding meeting of the minds. In this cyber-reality, we need a place to get things off our chest and make forward motion possible. Minds can't meet without a precondition of willingness to do so...the forum works for that to. The problem is separating the wheat from the chaff, and finding the real issues. It's not always so clear. Maybe that's issue number one.

Hi.  apologies for being away so long.  I would have really liked to contribute to this discussion.  I think Soc thoroughly captures my opinions and feelings exactly.  And that most certainly goes for a lot of other silenced players as well. nice posts Soc.  

ssickboy - bbs

First of all, I dont belong to the ladder or any BL for that matter, but i have been/seen similar situations in different aspects of my life.

I am a DJ/club promoter in the Los Angeles Drum & Bass scene.  We ran a club for a few years, and slowly but surely more and more clubs playin the same music kept popping up on the same night and other nights of the week, creating more supply than demand.  Ofcourse there were those that had "started" the club scene that were quite upset about other starting clubs and creating competition within the same crowd.  I had my doubts as well.  Some of the clubs went down in flames, some prospored (sp?).  But you know what happened?  The rise and fall of the other clubs helped expand the crowd base and scene dramatically.  Different promoters draw different types of people to there clubs, which would mean more people get cross-marketed to different sounds and get to explore other aspects of life, so to speak.

Personally, thru my experiences, i believe that creating a new battle league will help strengthen the community and help it grow to be a stronger more mature scene, because you can learn something from eachother.

I agree.  And I look at that as one more reason that league would fail too.  If they are sitting the fence like this, they aren't really being honest or contributing in my opinion.


Soc, I copied it here because I wanted to make sure everyone effected by this (and I think all of us are) saw what was going on and got their two cents worth in.  I actually expected the conversation to be carried on more in the N forums, then here, but that was my mistake.  I probably should have linked it and pointed that out.  But it doesn't matter too much to me where it's being talked about.  The point it that it should be talked out.

You guys are talking about doing what the "majority" of the players want.  But if you are only talking to the players that want to split, and ignoring the rest, you aren't really talking majority.  I've heard that 5 of the top 11 clans (and I love how that stopped right above my clan) are behind the new league.  Well, I see 29 clans that actually CB'd.  And even if you discount those clans with only a few, you are still only considering the "winning" clans with lots of cb's, there were a few clans on the lower half of the ladder with lots of CB's too.  But what about all of them.  Why shouldn't a clan count just because it doesn't CB as much as others?  That's like saying a clan shouldn't count because it's in North America, isn't it?  So they should all count is my point.


My problem with that is that it's all based on an assumption Soc.  You think the admins were tired of it.  You think they "deeply" wanted a way out.  Did you ask them?  Ok, you now see that you were wrong, but I'm just pointing it out so other people can learn the flaw in that argument.

And yes, I believe that new threads should be started, to deal with each and every problem with the league rules and structure as people see it.  So we as a community can figure out if they are really problems or not.  Just like I've seen happen quite a few times before.


Yeah, I agree, but I think we already have that.  I just think the mods here need to go back to moving the gripes and quarrels into the General Gossip instead of locking them.  My opinion, and I should probably put it in another thread, but the GG is the place for rants and quarrels according to the description, so that' where they should go.  The BL forum should be here to help shape it, and bring up disputes in CB's and the rules.  

I mean, I see all the locked threads where clans are bitching at each other, and while I agree the BL isn't the forum to do it on, I'd rather see them moved to the right forum then just locked.

No one who decides to participate in the other league will be labeled a traitor and be stripped of privileges. Choose what league you want to participate consequence free.  I am going to start a thread about changes in Season 6 and I hope to see some of the active posters in this thread making contributions.

Hazard

Thank Sick for coming back.  Its nice to hear somone listen to an intelligent post from Soc.  Nice to have you back Sick.   ;D

I know this thread will be overfilled with ideas and so nothing is missed please organize your posts in the following format, it will facilitate the process of post reviewing greatly.

If you are suggesting an idea:

The Topic in bold letters(so it is easy to browse through posts and see what they are on)

The problem/solution. If it is a problem and you are not clear on a solution just state that this problem needs to be addressed and any ideas you may have. If you have a solution to the problem state it under a  heading called "solution" once again for easy browsing purposes.

If you are giving feedback/a solution:

State the issue you are addressing before your solution/feedback then express any ideas you may have or any new issues you want to address.

I feel that this will help both the admins and the concerned participates browse easily through new suggestions. I will make the first.

Weakening Forfeits:

I mentioned this in the Admin section and now am mentioning it here. Many clans during the main season were rewarded with 6-0 victories because of a "disputed win" or an argument won on the forum instead of the battlefield.

Solution: This season I think it would be a good idea for clans to get less points for "disputed wins"(winning by forfeit) and in turn the clan that lost would lose more points for a "disputed loss."(losing by forfeit) I think this will encourage clans to just play it out. I have seen this done at another ladder and thought it could be implemented here. I think we should definitely use the disputed win part but should look more into the disputed loss part.                                                                                


P.S. Moderators: if you see fit edit this post for better formatting or just to add something, do so.  

Hazard, I agree that you speak it from this side, but that's not the general feeling I get from the other.



Hey Diesel, do me a favor and shove it.  I did listen to Soc, and I did respond intelligently and respectfully.  I also noticed Soc admit he was wrong.    

And I've noticed that you've contributed noting intelligent to this conversation.

Well speaking for myself that is how I feel on the subject and I hope that is how everyone else will start to look at it.

I wish I had opened this thread before now, but here it is...

Issue #1:

First, the general consensus I have picked up from all  the discussions over the last few days, the primary issue seems to be with the Admin structure.

First, they are not accountable to anyone save Mauti, as they are appointedby him.

Second, there are just too few of them to deal with the volume of issues that come up.

I believe the Second issue might be handled, as I see 9 names now listed as mods for this forum. If those appointed can communicate effectively amongst themselves and the workload gets spread evenly, that should be plenty to handle what comes up and ensure that no admin is put in a situation where there might be accusations of conflict of interest.

The first issue is still open for discussion in my opinion, and what I would like to propose is the following:

when a grievance is posted, the BL responds asap indicating who will be handling the particular case.

Final judgement should be issued within 24 hours. If an Admin cannot give attention to resolving disputes at a particular time due to holiday, workload, whatever... that Admin needs to let his peers know he is unavailable so he doesnt get buried in BL work without being able to do anything about it.

Appeals are disallowed unless new evidence can be contributed that changes the outcome. Appeals that are allowed will be refered to a panel of 3 admins for a majority ruling.

If a clan has a problem with a particular Admin being assigned to their case, that's too bad.

Period.

bypssing the Admins and pleading directly to Mauti will not be allowed and he should ignore all direct contacts save forwarding it back to the Admins.

Issue #2:

There was much discussion about rulings on glitching and adjusting the currrent 'any glitch= a forfeit' system. The problem I saw in all of those discussions was that even if a glitch IS ruled unintentional, trying to pick up a cb in the middle with the same people in a reasonable amount of time is nearly impossible. I am sure that is why the current rule came into being.

With that in mind, and in an effort to steer clans to resolving these issues without having to take them to moderators, I would propose the following...

If a player is caught in a glitch during a game and the other team notes it, the game is stopped, the replay is saved, and the glitching team loses that game on forfeit. Teams are allowed time to view the replay at that time. If the accusing team insists on taking the issue to the admins and it is ruled an unintentional glitch, the accusing team loses the match on forfeit.

If the glitch is blatently intentional the accusing team has the right to stop the match and take the replay directly to the Admins for a ruling. If the Admins feel a conscious effort to cheat was involved, the offending players' team forfeits the match.

All claims of glitching submitted to the Admins must be made within 10 minutes ofthe end of the match. Time will not be allowed to pour over every replay of every game looking for any problem.

Again, the effort here is to get the participants to sort things out without running to the admins. If people can own up to their own mistakes I think it would greatly alleviate the workload of the admins.

Just a starting point... I'm sure there are holes but let's get the ball rolling.

 :)


*moved here  -  Civic

is it just me, or are there a hell of a lot of mods in the bl forum?

Some cases take more than 24 hours Gambit.  That is so that no mistakes are made and all evidence is properly looked over and presented.  It has to be discussed by everyone then decided on a verdict.  We would want to rush anything too much.

Issue #1 Response

I agree with Gambit wholeheartedly about the overriding the admins and going to Mauti problem and like Infection said some cases take more than 24 hours to properly administer.

Issue #2 Respnse

I feel we would be nipping this in the bud if we instated the point alteration I mentioned above called "Weakening Forfeits."


Hazard

The more the merrier. It's sorta like having a jury. The more there are, the better the chance of a fair decision being reached...unless O.J. Simpson is on trial.  ;D

Issue 1-Rules
Have the BL rules been revamped since season 5? It was my understanding Noto made a new draft, just wondering if it will be implemented.

Issue 2-New Ladders
Will there be any included for season 6? A 1v1 ladder would be fun, this would add some variety and give those not in a clan a chance to participate. Also a Multi Clan CB ladder of some sort would be interesting.

 Issue 3-Finals for other ladders
Is there any reason for not having a finals for the other laddders? This may encourgae more CB's/interest.

As I am sure you are all very busy, and  Season 6 will begin soon, so you may suffer from the constraints of time. Therefore, if Season 6 winds up with little change, I understand. There are other larger issues to be addressed but i'll let my withering fingers rest.

so Noto becomes a mod to make things more balanced, clan wise. interesting....

Quick, sort of off topic post, but important I think.

Wouldn't it be easier to have multiple threads?  I can see this being un-followable soon.

well as much as i agree on both sides, yes *DAMN league has problems and Yes Stop b@%@$ing about.

So ill post what i exactly said to the N Forums.

Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 1:20 am



Heres my opinion about this league idea. Remember this is my opinion and im titled to my free of speech i assume on this forum.

First off, we allrdy got a damn league why make more? Theirs allread like 5 mac leagues and im sick of it. Just cause *DAMN introduced it doesnt mean you need to get more endorcing of your clan by making a league. That goes to BTs also. A reason why i killed the CQB League. If you guys are so stuck about how much the *DAMN League blows. Make comments Tell some1. Cause ill garentee you 99% that they fix it on the spot. If your trying to get your clan more publicity try making a mod or contrubite some how to mac society. Its been working for the past 4 years.

[mainman]


_________________
If its not mainman, its no one

But don't forget this one either:

Yep, way to play both sides of the street there.

Also, I'd like to point out that you are the same guy trying to start his own MoH league, instead of talking to the guys here first.  

Not to mention the flaming you gave Haz there, and then tell me not to flame.  Tardo.

I think we all know what's coming next.

You sire, are a HYPOCRITE!

Very true, Bucc, but an MoH ladder has been discussed before, several times I think. I'm pretty sure Mauti will turn down the idea again, unless more people ask for it. There doesn't seem to be much demand for an MoH ladder on *DAMN at the moment.

The reason why ideas like MOH ladder were turned down was because each cb had to be added by an admin.

With the automated system we are open for almost all egoshooters if it fits somehow to the *DAMN theme and tactical egoshooter.

I gonna open a new thread for the admin structure debate and another one for rule changes.

Bye,

Mauti

Egoshooter... Mauti I have got hand it to you.  Thats the best name I have ever heard for this! :)

I apologize for my absence over the past few days.  School and work have kept me extremely busy this week.  As most of you are probably experiencing this, my finals actually happen the week after Thanksgiving, which is soon... so soon.

I have posted a new topic on this forum in regards to the new league discussions, which were taking place over at The .::|N|etwork forums.  I thank all of you that posted your ideas, concerns, etc.  As I stated in my new post on this forum and on the .:::|N| forum, the new league discussions will remain viewable for the period of one week, so that anyone may still read the ideas, concerns, etc. that people had in concerns to creating a new league.  I think there were many ideas that the *DAMN BL could benefit from, as long as they are presented in a somewhat professional manner.  "Make get Papa its own ladder because it's hella fun" will most likely not be considered as a professional presentation of an idea.  ;D

I hope that there are no hard feeling towards .::|N|, myself, or any other clans or clan members that participated in the new league discussions.  I only wish to move on and focus on the challenge I presented in my new post located here:   ;)  (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=5136)

Good luck to all in Season 6!

.::|N| Noto

Mainman just because you talked shit against me AND MY CLAN and couldn't back it up and I beat your ass 1v1 doesn't mean you have to be a dick about it. You started it, I'm ending it. Stfu, ignore me, whatever you have to do. Everytime I see you post you do something dumb as fuck and try to flame me, or post under an alias and try to flame me. Grow the fuck up.

To Noto:

I'll check out the thread as soon as I get a chance.

For the record, the new league was originally being endorsed by 6 clans.  If you are going to accuse people of doing something, then please do your homework on the subject first.

Mainman, I have read many of your posts, and have gone back to read others I haven't seen before.  Many of your posts are contradictory, let alone the fact that the majority of your accusations lack evidence.  You seem to "speak" before you think.  If you are in support of the *DAMN BL, which I'm sure some people out there are confused if you are, then show it by thinking first, then "speaking".  Every illogical post that you present to this community simply drives them away from taking you seriously.  Although, every well-thought post you present gets them back.

.::|N| Noto

I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is any longer since the subject matter has been discussed and dissolved.

Then close it big admin boy! ;D