*DAMN R6 Forum

The Following is a Stament made by Admins to be posted should the cb beteen the clans -MP5- and BTs not take place in the allocated time set out in the previous ruling by BL admins. The deadline has just passed so the following now applies:

It is the final decision of the Admins that:

Both BTs and MP5 did not meet the requirements as laid down by the BL Admins, so both clans are now excluded from the Season 7 playoffs.  The Collective and Core clans will move on the the Season 7 finals.

Furthermore, since BTs decided to flagrantly disrespect the rule of the Admins and the Admins themselves, they are hereby banned as a clan from all DAMN BL Ladders for Season 8.

For their actions, MP5 will be on probation for Season 8.

This statment was agreed by the following:
-    :MoD:BFG
-    |MP|Buccaneer
-    |!|Flies
-    c| Splinter
-    :MoD:Aramarth
-    ]BoC[VooDoo

I will make one statement and that its.. I feel i have a right to say one last thing on Y BTs did what we did..

WE feel that we are getting banned for playing by the rules for the finals and mp5 did not. The DBL admins gave mp5 an extension onto the time that they were supposed to play the 1rst round finals after we had waited for 2 days to get the cb's done.. We did not agree w/ this and we protested. I know from talking w/ the rest of BTs that we accept the final ruling here but we also feel that mp5 should have had more punishment too for breaking the rules in the first place. That is all i have to say on BTs part.. Have a good season next season.. and GL to c| and the core clans in the final games.. Look for something new from BTs soon  ;)  

this post is not trying to start something.. no replies need to be posted on this.. this is just BTs's position/opinion on this.

Harvey, i won't say much other than the ban came down to BT's refusal to accept the BL ruling on the 24 hour deadline. The BL can not operate and be moderated by the Admins if Clans will not accept Decisions made by Admins...

We clearly stated in the first ruling that we were drawing a line under the events over the weekend regarding the cb's or rather lack of cb's. I wish this could have been resolved in another manner, and the solution was made available...

Can i just clarify that this ban is a ban on the Clan not the individual players. The responsibility of the clan and its actions rests soley on the Registered Clan leader.

Best regards.

BFG

 Thank you.

I respect the decision, and I think at this point this was clearly what needed to happen. However, I'm very disapointed that things had to get this out of control. I think it reflects poorly on both MP5 and BTs, and is a discrace to the Battle League.

I want to apologize to the other finalists - collective and core, that this issue had to overshadow the finals.

I can't think of a better group of guys to go to the finals than Core, good luck guys.

In closing, I'd like to thank all the Battle League admins who helped with this issue, and all the Battle League members who put up with it.

 

We are a clan.. we stick together on our desisions.. we will take next season off as a clan and just have fun playing together like the (six) clan and a few other non cbing clans do.

Well that kind of sucks for us .. seeing as the rules where changed. We work during the week and it is hard to reschedule meetings and events in 1 day. Besides that is why Finals are setup for weekends. But when Mauti gave us the option to extend to the next weekend, the Admins shot him down. Thanks Mauti for making an educated decision. I wish we could have worked this out but hey.. I guess that will save us a lot of trouble if the future, not having to try and defend the well thought out rules.

Good Luck and Have Fun........

With all respect Mauti only knew of the situation from what you had told him. He had not seen the events that had taken place in the forum or have half the information regarding the entire situation. We felt therefore that his suggestion was not acceptable and he made it perfectly clear that it would only stand if Admins approved it.

Im sorry it was hard to get guys online, however i did notice that evening that there were enough BT's players who could have done the cb.... they might not have been the best players etc but that is/was beside the point - this was not about winning a cb, it was about accepting a ruling in order to difuse a situation that had gone way out of hand. But this of course is now irrelevant

The rules are set out for us but cannot encompase every individiual situation. We have and will continue to follow them as closely as possible, applying them as closely as possible to each individual problem that arises. Most situations are a open and shut case where direct rules can be quoted but i do not feel this was one of them.  I suppose what im saying is that there has to be the certain amount of give where rules that are just text on paper can be applied to actuality in some complex situations... that is extreamly difficult, but is what i believe the roll of the Admin exists for.

Best regards

Three quick notes.

1) you were given this option by the Admins in the first place and refused to schedule anything Fusion.  We all but begged you guys to.

2) The last two nights there were plenty of times when both clans had people on with RvS and could have CB'd.  The only effort I saw from BTs was the occasional game room, and lots of posts, that said they wouldn't CB.

3) I remember just a short while ago when BTs was one of the clans protesting that the clans didn't have enough say in these matters.  That all clans should make these decisions.  Now, when your peers have decided something you don't agree with, you threaten to leave the league, start your own ladder again, and pretty much just didn't work with the system you wanted.  

This wasn't a rash, or blind, or biased decision.  Both clans were wrong from the start.  Neither clan pushed the issues aside once dealt with, and actually communicated and set up CB's.  It does no good to finger point, because we've looked at it from the outside and we are telling you what we see.  

Because both clans couldn't work it out, it's only fair that you both be removed from the playoffs.  The extra ban is because after refusing our suggestions, and forcing the Admins to set the deadline, you refused to acknowledge or follow the decision.  Even though it was upheld more than once.  

So it's a bit late to be talking about an offer to let you guys set it up, after you turned that same chance down more than once.

And if you, or anyone in your clan thinks that how either clan acted during this time was acceptable, or what the Battle League stands for, you have a completely different view of what this is about than I do.  And from the looks of things, different than the rest of the Admins as well.

The real bottom line is that while you guys were complaining that MP5 broke the rules, you chose to knowingly break them yourselves.  You put yourselves ahead of the rules without pause.  So you have no moral high ground.

I am glad you think that the rules were well thought out, as the Admin's spent a lot of time and effort working on them.  That includes this situation and the results.

Not all admins (i am not including BTs_admins) agree with your decision Bucc. I would like to make that clear.

Fair enough. However all of the admins that have come to the last two meetings we have had, and who i have spoken to regarding this issue were in total agreement after long periods of debate. If those admins who did not agree on this statment had come forward and discussed this then it would have been more for the better. It does not change the fact that this was decided by six admins, twice the default size of standard minor decision making

Fusion,

I haven't seen one disagree yet in the Admin section, and if one doesn't, they've been quiet about it for days.

However, there's more than a majority that do agree (given the silence of a couple that made no comment).  And isn't that what matters?  That the majority of your peers thinks that you are wrong and out of line?  Isn't that the system that BTs pushed to have in place?

Knowing that, isn't it even more childish to pull the old "we are taking our ball and going home" attitude that you did?

If we were wrong then MP5 was as well for forcing an extension

As I said before we accept your decision......We just don't agree, are we allowed to disagree?

Yep, you are allowed to disagree.  I have no problem with you disagreeing.  You can disagree till the cows come home, and I'll never say a bad word about it.

I do have a problem with you questioning my integrity though, and that of the other Admins.  That, I think, you don't have the right to do.  Especially after I came and suffered through hours of trying to talk to your clan about it, and we spent hours trying to work it out, while you refused to cooperate.  I also have a problem with you leaving out important facts, or misleading people.  So when you do those things, I feel I must respond.

And yes, MP5 was wrong, very wrong.  And they are being removed from the playoffs as well.  The only reason they got probation and you guys got the ban was your open and flagrant defiance of the Admin decision.

Thinking about this, I think I have found some of why you wrongly think what you do of the Admins.  It seems like you, and your clan, feel that it was a decision in your favor, or MP5's favor.  That we were choosing between the two clans.

This couldn't be farther from the truth for me, and at least a few others that I talked to for hours about this.  All we cared about was the BL, and what was best for it.  It was never about who's side were we on.  To us, there was only one side, the BL's side.  So we looked at the situation, we looked at how it got there, felt that both clans were at fault, not just one, and made our decision accordingly.  Trust me, Typhy didn't get his way, he complained that he was going to have to play the CB short handed because of the deadline.  And yes, we said that he would have to, if you guys couldn't work something out before hand.  So you tell me, is forcing you guys to play, when it's possibly 4 v 2, really giving into Typhy?  Not in my opinion.

But we don't need to go through all the issues again, they've been gone through with Eight and Lee Harvey enough.  You can choose to believe that we acted in good faith, or not.  You can choose to believe we acted in good faith and are wrong, or not.  And it's not going to make a lot of difference to me which you choose.  But if you insist on talking about our lack of integrity, keep trying to make us look bad, after all the effort we've put forth, I will continue to argue with you.  

AMEN BUCC!

Ara

All I can say is that this is whole heartedly funny.  The main reason for your guys arguement was to never have to force a forfeit because it was a harsh penalty.  I mean, we will take our medicine so to speak on the grounds that this is what the community wants.  But now you have just turned around and banned a whole clan, which in essence is stiffer than any forfeiture.

I mean, little do do you understand.  The only thing BTs was really looking for was some type of reasoning or penalty given to MP5 for their blatant disregard for the rules.  But now you have given that to them after you have gone and penalized us more harshly once again.  All you had to do was publicly chastize them then like you have done now and I would guarrantee you that we would of played your Monday dealine.

Instead everyone just decided to pull out their guns to punish the ones who  as usual did what any normal clan would of done.  Not the clan that forced a tweaking of time, rules, and debate among admins.  Some of you on this counsel have swayed like a flag that the strongest wind takes you.

I guess just in one final thought from me.  It's funny to think that we get the stiffer penalty.  These guys played you to change a rule, played us to stand up for what we believe was the rule, and pulled away making us look like asses.  I must congratulate you for letting that happen.  The season we come back, I hope someone up there in admin land can finally think up some special rules that don't allow a .dinner tag or a .homework to ruin a season.  

And I am sorry so many peoples feeling were hurt over a game.  Now that is funny.


added:

in actuality, how were we supposed to know we were to follow the decision on sunday and monday to play that night.  We tried to follow the rules earlier and that didn't work.  So now you are trying to tell us we should know when to and not to follow the rules.  My head hurts.  Please have one lengthy explanation of this also.

OK - no disrespect to Core, but didn't we already eliminate them from the finals?  I am not worried about eliminating them again, but how does two forfeits=resurrecting a fairly eliminated clan=fair to c|?  Just asking because this really confuses me.  Of course I and c| would rather win the Title through cbing than by forfeits, but hmmm, couldnt we cb the 5th place clan of the season or something?  I am only asking for clarification cuz I don't get it (not tryin to start any trouble).  Thank you for your time! ???

Why not give us a deadline we can actually do?

Instead of a deadline that mp5 could do... after it already missed the DEADLINE part that u guys made so perfectly clear is so important when we made the finals.

MP5 had at leasst 4 hours to complete the second cb on sunday... and all night saturday.... which we were here for...

The cb against zt on sunday lasted about 45 min - 1 hour....

Yet were at fault?

If you guys really wanted this cb to happend then why didnt u make a FAIR ruling as to when we can play the finals... and not a ruling as to when MP5 can make it?

How about a more fair ruling that doesnt involve any clans taking the finals spot? bucc, voodoo & flies..?

Well, well, well.  Since the admins are so willing to follow the "RULES".  Maybe they should look into a player on MP5 that should not have been playing in the finals at all.  (cough, cough maniac)  Seems to me that he jioned MP5 on the 16th of March,   Hmmm, don't the rules say players must cb during the regular season and must be there one week before the end of the regular season?   Thats looks mighty funny to me,  MP5 tries to stack their team the day before the finals started.  Also, its funny how the server just crashed when BTs was up 4 guys to their 2 and we had them surrounded.  While Typhy was in AK, he did admit to these tactics in the past am I not correct?  (read the past post from typhy admitting this)  So in closing, we (Bts) shall take our punishment with a grain of salt and stand tall for what we and may others on GR believe was correct.  



static, down but not out!

Yep, I thought this may be a heated disscussion.


I will post on this when I get home from work. I was going to keep quiet on this but it seems as though Im not the only one thinking it.

In the strict sense of the rules, this situation is treated as if BTs and MP5 were eliminated from the final round, thus core and c| are the surviving clans. I hope that helps.

Again invisibly yours,
Aramarth

I am sorry, but do not quote the strict sense of the rules. Contradiction will occur.

Give the title to c|.  Or I do agree, bring in clan #5.  Do what makes most sense.

In the strict sense of the rules, this situation is treated as if BTs and MP5 were eliminated from the final round, thus core and c| are the surviving clans. I hope that helps.


Wow now thats the funniest thing I have ever seen!  "In the strict sense of the rules".    If that was followed before, none of this would have been an issue.  

Now lets recap this,

MP5- no show for finals cb TWO times and once in the regular season.  Thats 3 no shows.  Which was a direct violation of the DBL rules............ slap on the hand


BTs - no show after the admins change the rules........... banned.


Flipping off the admins...............priceless

static

Well i wanted to say hiyas!
However, if youre still able to read a post in this hella long thread, then go on--->
I feel beeing punished for what i didnt do. The only game I was playing for the last season was ghr. As far as I know, every cb we played in ghr was alrite and it was quite fun too.
Whenever someone had a problem with us or else thing, i (and some of my team too i saw) used to talk to these guys and make sure that everything was alrite and no rule was hurt.
Well but what happend now - at a damn time when i wasnt even here (i'm european and i use to be here at 1pm est) pisses me off big time yo (to have said something in the maerican way)!.
Why did you have to ban us from all disciplines and why did you have to ban all players? I'm angry about what happend - i would like to break through the wall because of it with my damn head!
I just hope the people which have to be punished for this, are so now - and maybe quite a lot others to, who fucking cares?
I also say shame to these people, who were responsible for this happening. I say shame big time!
Thanks

hey bomb, the clan has been banned, any member except eight, the leader, are allowed to join another clan and play next season.

Give me a break, Eight. For most of the day, you guys had plenty of players on. The only reason the CB failed to happen was because of your refusal to "accept" the decision.

funny, when you asked me and wiggy we told you we were working.  Which we truly were.  In addition, how do you know that all of our players play RVS and/or CB in RVS?  Your assumption is based on no merit much like many other assumptions. Prove it!

So no!! no break for you.

Actually Ara (or any other admin), wouldn't the strict sense of the rules point out that if BTs and MP5 are both eliminated, then c| is the only surviving clan?  Core has been eliminated as well; that is actually the one thing in all of this that was without doubt "by the rules."  Nothing that happened between BTs and MP5 changes that.  

If either BTs or MP5 eliminated the other team and then forfeited before facing us in the finals would the rules suggest bringing Core back? How is this different?  Either way we have no surviving opponent.

How is the decision to revive the Core clan any more legitimate than taking, say, the 5th place clan... the highest ranked clan that has not been eliminated?  But if that makes sense, then it seems pretty unfair that they get a free pass to the finals.  Perhaps we should take the 5th and 6th place clans to replace the 2nd and 3rd place clans.  But if thats the case, then Core would be the 2nd place clan, and should not have faced us in the first round, so we should proably just start from scratch.  None of these solutions are suggested by the rules any more than is undoing Core's first round defeat, and sticking them in the finals.  The only thing that is true without any further interpretation is that c| is the only surving clan from the 4 finalists.

It seems to me that you may decide to bring back Core to face us simply to have a "final" round, but that would be an admin decision, not a reading of the rules.  You would be asking us to re-eliminate a clan which we have already beaten, leaving our prior CBs and victory meaningless.  That is a decision that seems unfair to the one clan who is surviving by the rules.

I am honestly asking for a logical discussion of this.

its all gone a bit to far.... and yes like usual i havent read all the posts...because reading all the posts is a waste of my time - my life.....

its kind of sad that one clan gets of lighter than the other (seeing as its both clans at fault according to the admins - and if its both clans faults they should have the same ban).... no one cheated, its a game.

you're right pyro, at least i think you are. with BTs and MP5 out, it seems pretty clear that the c|clan would be the season 7 rvs ladder winner since they have already beaten the core clan in the finals. it should be that way anyway, but who knows what'll happen.

* and although the ruling has already been handed down i'd like to voice my opinion as an outsider that has been watching this situation rather closely. i agree with the admins in the fact that both clans are at fault for not getting the cb's finished on time, even given an extention. however i do not agree with the punishments handed down.

this is just my opinion, but i feel both clans should've been given the same punishment. whether it be probation or a ban for a season. both clans knew the rules, both clans broke the rules and yet only one clan has truely been punished.

and i don't mean to start any shit here, but how is it gonna work next season with typhy (a bl admin) on probation. and harvey's clan is banned from competing. how's that gonna look? that either the admins didn't know the rules or they knew them and clearly broke them. is anything being done to make sure that doesn't happen again?

obviously i'm not involved with either clan or rvs for that matter, but i do participate in the ladders and i am somewhat aware of the rules. i look upon this situation without bias, and it just seems to me that both clans should be given strict probation (with the definate possibility of being banned for one or more seasons) and both admins in those clans should be stripped of their titles for a season. sorry typhy and harv, nothing personal but it seems more fitting and logical than punishing one clan and not the other.

Srry I am as guest but I am at work reading this now on my off time, so plz understand why I didnt log in as my normal act.  Anyway, I do agree that #5 and 6 should be brought in to play at least one round to go against c| in the finals.  The only reason for that is because again, the core clan has already lost both of their games again c| and to have them play again is kinda fruitless.  Plus let's look at it under a perspective that the #5 and 6 clans were also so close in points wise to the rest of the top 4.  It's not like there was a serious difference like there was in Ghost recon.  Plus it would give the other two teams a chance to win knowing that their whole time devoted to the season hasnt gone for naught.  But it is an admin thing in the end, although I do agree with the above complaints about that, that BOC and MP should be allowed the chance to win.

:MoD:Saberian

Saberian,

As one of the leaders of the MP, a clan you suggest play off, I think I'd have to say no for us being involved in the finals at all.  I was way too involved in what went on here, and it just wouldn't be right, in my opinion.  

While being completely wrong, a couple people here accused me of having exactly this in mind, and it being my motivation for making the choices I did.  I will not be adding fuel to that fire if I have a choice.

i do agree with the fact that Collective should be declared a winner. They're in the 3rd, defeated the 4th and since the 1st and 2nd are out, why the hell should they not win the season ? But as Cutter pointed out, who knows what will happened next, since new rules seem to appear from time to time.

Just for the record Bobby, c| was the 1st place clan, and defeated the 4th pace clan, Core.   The 2nd and 3rd place clans have been disqualified.

Is this a joke?


Actually, MP5 complained about the time too, and would have been playing short handed.  But, you keep ignoring that because it doesn't fit in with your bitching Eight.

Also, you were given the chance to schedule it yourself.  You kept refusing.  

And, yes, as it's been pointed out quite a few times now, you had people online, active, with RvS that could have CB'd both nights, though you refused.

So, this is a joke.  It wasn't that you couldn't make it, since you had people there, it's that you refused to make it.

we can go round in circles all day long and keep saying the same things.... will an admin answer my question from before... you said both clans were at fault... so why hasnt the same punishment been handed out?

this is how i see it.... we were here all day sunday ready, they dont turn up

so ok they get an extension, we dont think its fair... rules etc etc... so then you expect everyone to be happy with this, so you say the following night after people are still pretty pissed at the choice... why didnt you say the following weekend when everyone had cooled down...... so anyway back onto the thing, so BTs dont do the cb  which is the same as what MP5 didnt do on sunday... but BTs ends up worse than MP5..... it seems pretty straightfoward to me... both clans should have the same punishment. Why is this not the case?

if a rule can be broken by one clan, and get away with it lightly why should the other get a harsher punishment? because you guys didnt like it? i am not trying to flame... I am just trying to understand the diff punishments between the two

See bucc i think thats where you made your ruling and thats where i think your wrong...

Bucc's post:
And, yes, as it's been pointed out quite a few times now, you had people online, active, with RvS that could have CB'd both nights, though you refused.


WE NEVER REFUSED TO CB THIS WEEKEND. MP5 DID!

Thats what you keep trying to throw at us... HOW DID WE REFUSE WHEN MP5 closed the room down? How did we refuse when the admins made their ruling and i even told typhy we would play his way...

THAT MY FRIEND IS WHAT YOU DONT UNDERSTAND. WE NEVER REFUSED... only to the extention...

I have stayed away from this topic so far because it has not involved me or my clan in any direct way, so I felt it would be out of place for me to comment. However, there seems to be some confusion about the punishments handed down. Though I am not privy to the admin deliberations on this subject, I think I have a pretty good idea of what happened.

I think the reason for the difference in punishments is as follows:

MP5 and BTs were both disqualified from the finals because of rules violations. The difference between the two is in the manner in which the violation occured.

MP5 seems to have been disqualified for simple violation, roughly equivalent to a misdemeanor I would guess. It is also worthy of note that MP5 has also been courteous when dealing with the admins as far as I can tell.

BTs was also disqualified for a rules violation, however, their violation seems to have been beyond a simple violation. I would characterize it as flagrant and abusive personally, particularly on the part of the BTs clan leader. The rough equivalent of this offense I suppose could be considered a felony. So, in addition to the disqualification BTs was punished further, not for a rules violation, but for the reproachful and repugnant manner in which it dealt with the admins.

Which is completely understandable on the part of the admins, can anyone think of any ref or umpire who would put up with what the admins have these past few days? I can't. And as an umpire myself, I can tell you that I would have not only ejected many of the actors in this drama, I would have also sought suspensions and or bannings from the league. It's ok to disagree with an admin/umpire, it is NOT ok to disrespect or attack them in the way that the BL admins have been attacked these past few days.

Anyway, in summary, I think that BTs has only themselves to blame for their banning from season 8. I am certain that if BTs had treated the admins with the respect and courtesy they deserved that their punishment would be exactly the same as MP5s.

On a slightly different subject, I agree with Bucc about MP staying out of the finals. I wouldn't feel right about playing in this season's finals if we didn't earn it. It's unfortunate that things had to turn out this way. It would have been much better if competition and skill had decided the outcome of this season's finals instead of Battle League Lawyering, but hopefully we can all learn from this season's mistakes and make Season VIII the best yet.

alaric... thx for the answer and I agree with some of it, but the other point is.. and i think most people might have done the same thing. A clan went against the rules, a clan got pissed off by a alteration of that rule.... then while stile pissed at this decision the clan doesnt play the following night... why wasnt the cb delayed a bit longer.... and i know its far fetched this... . you brake your leg in a game of some sort, you dont go back the next day to play it again, let time pass and it gets better. We are all humans apart from a few people on GR... people were angry and pissed off. I personally think if the cb was delayed longer, rather than the following night, things wouldnt have got so bad.

Onwig, probably because it's been answered more than once, before you asked, and you didn't bother reading it.

But here it is again.

Both clans are being punished for what happened.  Both clans are out of the finals.  

The reason MP5 is on probation next season while BTs is banned is because MP5 accepted the decision of the Admins, while BTs refused.  BTs was warned what refusal would probably mean, so they weren't blind to it.

Yes, punishment is meant to teach a lesson, if not to you, than to others.  


Yep, I know that's how you see it.  I've heard that so very often now.  But, I must say, that's not how I, and obviously others, see it.  And we've discussed this for hours with members from your clan Onwig, so repeating it isn't going to do any good.


Again, we don't see it as "they get an extension".  I know you haven't read, but you should.  MP5 complained about the deadline too, in that they would have to play short handed.  So is making them play short handed really just giving in to them?  But, since neither side could agree, we had to set something, and so we did.  It wasn't meant to be in either clans advantage.

And just for the record, I don't think it's fair on the Admins that two clans couldn't work it out amongst themselves either.  But hell, nobody seems to care a lot about that.  Remember, we tried very very hard to get the clans to work it out, to talk to each other.  It's not like BTs put forth any effort in that regard.


Because there are two different issues, and two different punishments here Onwig.

Both clans were being punished equally for the fact that they couldn't manage to CB.  BTs got the additional punishment because they refused to accept the decision.  It's not that BTs challenged the decision, I actually told you guys the right way to do it (and was ignored).  It's that we were told flat out that you guys wouldn't CB, that we were wrong and you won.  It was flagrant.  When you guys said the time didn't work out for you, we asked you to set one, but BTs refused to do that, saying you didn't have to, you had already won.  

And since some Admins watched, while BTs had enough members active to CB, but refused to, it was just that much more clear that it wasn't a matter of cannot, it was will not.

Eight, you can think I'm wrong all you want, but just be sure of two things.

1) I wasn't "wrong" alone.  Many of us felt the same way.

2) You wanted very bad a system where your peers made these decisions.  But you can't seem to live with it now that it's happened.


And that my friend is why you got the ban, because you did refuse, the extension.  I do understand what you are saying about Sunday night, and we've been around and around about it.  I don't agree with you.  Other's don't agree with you.  It's not as simple as just Sunday night to me.

Not agreeing with you doesn't mean I don't understand, it means I see it differently Eight.  Time for you to grow up and understand that.

In following of all convo's since Sunday I believe I can offer a summation.  Nobody is arguing about the same points of a heated and multi-faceted problem.

I think all the personal attacks and vendettas should be just dropped and such.  This of all sorts is petty in a place for a game and a gaming league.  I ask both sides to just drop it, it will get us no farther than a flat tire, and besides, do you really think you will change someones opinion.

As for the the forementioned problems throughout this whole thread and the other ones.  Just can I personally get one answer as to what happened with Sunday.  I can't get past this and my clan can't either.  What everyone fails to realize is that no matter what occured on Saturday, be it my fault, kermits fault, or if the sun didn't rise of the right side of the ocean, what happened to Sunday.

We arrived and stayed All day (argumentably, some of the day, and in some places not even part of the weekend).  The cb's ended because one side felt they had something to do, and noted, without explanation.  I didn't wait the entire weekend to play these games, and I was a late entry, but can you understand why those who did wait all weekend to play a few games are pissed?  They wasted two days and one of these shouldn't have been.

So the ruling comes back well, they logged off, and saturday you messed up.  But nobody to this minute has explained why we should accept a ruling with no real argument as to why we wasted our Sunday.  If you had to waste a whole day I think you too wouldbe pissed.  In addition, nothing was ever said to MP5 about this, just about how both clans messed up Saturday.  BUT WHAT ABOUT SUNDAY.  We had nothing to do about this day other than to show up and play.  Besides this, they left Sunday without a verification that we would continue to play the games at a later date.

We asked for the forfeiture in that the rules stated certain things, by certain times.  Be it harsh, this is actually what is stated.  Now I personally feel the flames affected reason and I am sad to see them from my clan and others. Without it I think things would have gone drastically different.  But in saying that, you then had to make a decision based on feelings and not facts.  Now ignoring feelings and everything else going crazy in here, were we in the wrong? Was it truly wrong for us to pay a penalty for something we didn't do? This is the basis of our argument.  

If the rest of the games had been played Sunday this whole retardation would of never occured, and they all stem from them logging off.  This is also the main factor for us being pissed.  It stems from actions that were out of our control, we can't make them come back on-line when they leave.  Is this so hard to get?

I just want a straight answer based on the facts, if you dispute anything here, please let me know.  But since the beggining, this is all I have asked for.  And the other posts I think have ruined a chance for this to be answered.

Please no more posts and just a few that try to hit these topics.

I thank you

yeah i apologise, i should have read all of it.... you need a forum bot to answer the questions ;)

DBL members, Admins and BTs brothers,

I would like to take this time to apologize for actions.  I in no way did I intend this to go as far as it has.  I was only trying to piont out the infractions BTs and MP5 made.  I for one am young at heart but as an adult should not fight over these petty situations.  With this in mind, I will remove myself from posting in the forums.


BTs_static, down and out for the count

Hello Everyone!

Wow, where have I been all day....GhostSniper in the house.....

I have a favor to ask of all of the Battle League Admins (except for Harvey and Bucc...):

Would you all (the admins, that is) PM me with your home address?  I have a little present for all of you.

Thanks,

-GhostSniper Out.

P.S.  I realize that BTs is banned from the Season VIII Ladders, but does that include the 1v1 Ladders?  Cause I don't know about anybody else, but I will be royally pissed I gave Mauti $100 to be a *DAMN Supporter and not be able to play in the 1v1 Ghost Recon ladder when it comes out.  Also, does this ban include in any way posting on the forums?  Cause I am a bit of a forum whore and all.

Ghostsniper, check your PM's. I have already warned you once by PM about personal threats. Take this as your second. And you dont get a third. Personal threats be it a joke or not are not condoned around here - VooDoo

Onwig, no need to apologize.  My reply sounded harsher than I meant it.  


Ok, I just went back and deleted a long post covering things from how you guys wasted hours after you were told, and that was your own fault, to how when I asked you clan why it wouldn't CB earlier when MP5 wanted to, you guys wouldn't answer me.

But none of that matters, once I look at it.  It's not really going to solve anything.  Here's what I think will.  You can agree with the decision or not, but here's what it came down to for me.

No matter how many times you say it, I can't ignore everything else and just limit myself to looking at just Sunday night.  To be fair, I have to look at the whole weekend, the whole round of the playoffs.  That includes Sunday day, that includes Saturday.  

I'm speaking strictly for myself here, nobody else.  But both clans failed miserably here.  There was a complete and total lack of anything near good sportsmanship from either.  For me, most of the blame is directed at the leaders of both clans 1) not getting along in the first place 2) not willing to actually talk to each other.  They both had quick tempers, both liked to yell more than they listen.  

Both clans absolutely fucked this up in my opinion.  Not one, but both.  Not in the same ways, but they both did.  

When we talked about it, we saw that both clans were in the wrong.  That being the case, we wanted the CB's played, not a ruling, but actually playing the game, you know, how it's meant to be done.  

So we asked, I asked, I practically begged, for the clans to work out a solution.  Eight wouldn't budge.  So it was left to us to force a decision.  And the rest you know.

Now, again, I know to many of you it's all about Sunday night.  That is the only thing you are concerned with, and that you think you should be judged by.  All I can say is that is exactly not how I see it.  I'll let other Admins speak for themselves, but it's obvious that it's not the black and white to us, that you seem to think it is FahQ2.

Goddammit, ignore those posts and their lack of anything.

please:

In following of all convo's since Sunday I believe I can offer a summation.? Nobody is arguing about the same points of a heated and multi-faceted problem.

I think all the personal attacks and vendettas should be just dropped and such.? This of all sorts is petty in a place for a game and a gaming league.? I ask both sides to just drop it, it will get us no farther than a flat tire, and besides, do you really think you will change someones opinion.

As for the the forementioned problems throughout this whole thread and the other ones.? Just can I personally get one answer as to what happened with Sunday.? I can't get past this and my clan can't either.? What everyone fails to realize is that no matter what occured on Saturday, be it my fault, kermits fault, or if the sun didn't rise of the right side of the ocean, what happened to Sunday.

We arrived and stayed All day (argumentably, some of the day, and in some places not even part of the weekend).? The cb's ended because one side felt they had something to do, and noted, without explanation.? I didn't wait the entire weekend to play these games, and I was a late entry, but can you understand why those who did wait all weekend to play a few games are pissed?? They wasted two days and one of these shouldn't have been.

So the ruling comes back well, they logged off, and saturday you messed up.? But nobody to this minute has explained why we should accept a ruling with no real argument as to why we wasted our Sunday.? If you had to waste a whole day I think you too wouldbe pissed.? In addition, nothing was ever said to MP5 about this, just about how both clans messed up Saturday.? BUT WHAT ABOUT SUNDAY.? We had nothing to do about this day other than to show up and play.? Besides this, they left Sunday without a verification that we would continue to play the games at a later date.

We asked for the forfeiture in that the rules stated certain things, by certain times.? Be it harsh, this is actually what is stated.? Now I personally feel the flames affected reason and I am sad to see them from my clan and others. Without it I think things would have gone drastically different.? But in saying that, you then had to make a decision based on feelings and not facts.? Now ignoring feelings and everything else going crazy in here, were we in the wrong? Was it truly wrong for us to pay a penalty for something we didn't do? This is the basis of our argument.?

If the rest of the games had been played Sunday this whole retardation would of never occured, and they all stem from them logging off.? This is also the main factor for us being pissed.? It stems from actions that were out of our control, we can't make them come back on-line when they leave.? Is this so hard to get?

I just want a straight answer based on the facts, if you dispute anything here, please let me know.? But since the beggining, this is all I have asked for.? And the other posts I think have ruined a chance for this to be answered.

Please no more posts and just a few that try to hit these topics.

I thank you                                                                                

Bah, none for me :)


First and foremost, you are not banned from the forums GS.  

Second, as for the 1v1, that's a good question for the Admins.  I know it's been stated that this is a Clan Ban, which means that if any members of BTs were to leave and join another clan, they would be allowed to CB (other than the clan leaders).  And no, that's not a suggestion, just repeating the rules, since it has something to do with how I'm going to answer.

Obviously I'm not making the decision on my own here GS, but I will give my opinion out in the open.  My opinion is, given that it's a clan punishment, not an individual one, the 1v1's wouldn't count.  Since you can't be a clan of one, the 1v1 is kind of exempt from this.  So, incase you didn't follow that double talk, my opinion is yes, you'd be allowed to play in the 1v1 ladder.  

Again, let me say that it's just my opinion, one I'll express with the other Admins.  But we'll have to discuss that because we hadn't thought of it before.  I'll post it and make sure I get back with you though.

For the record everyone...

BTs ACCEPTED the decision passed down by the admins

BUT WE FORFEITED.. geez We didn't show up, let me check ... yup, thats considered a forfeit.


w00t we got banned for forfeiting a game.............

Easy there gentlemen. Believe it or not, I have acted based upon rules throughout this issue in its entirety, it is the two clans involved putting words in my mouth that would make it seem otherwise.

On a side note, I have a lot more respect for static and fah now. These are the sort of statements that I have been longing to see. I will happily answer you Fah.

You have every reason to be irritated. MP5's dodging of play doesn't make me a happy man. Here is what the admins had to go on:
1. MP5 played/finished the first cb on sunday at the default time.
2. For various reasons, they were unable to continue play that evening. They asked, as clans have in the past, for an extention to allow the best of 3 match to conclude.
3. Several admins made the decision to grant this request, and gave a 24 hour extention.
4. Eight believed this extention was an unfair advantage to MP5. Instead of asking nicely for a more suitable extention for his clan, he chose to mount a PR campaign (which even included naming numerous gameranger rooms in defiance of the ruling).
5. A second group of admins observed the apparent defiance of the historically valid ruling of an extention. Since eight was not using any "proper" channels, we (i was in this group) decided that the two clans would not solve this problem if left alone.
6. Calling up the core and network situation from december, we gave the same sort of ruling that mauti gave in that situation. Finish it, we don't care how, by this time (Tuesday midnight PST in this case).
7. Eight was again defiant. Apparently, when admins present a ruling it is not valid to some people.
8. According to the BL rules, refusing to cb during the finals calls for a ban. We supplied it. Due to the fact that MP5 was also at fault for a lot of this situation, we put them on probation. This means that if they try anything funny next season, they will be banned also.

So what does all my overly long text mean? BTs is not being punished for anything other than refusing to follow the rulings of a majority vote of admins. I have heard since that the extention supplied was insufficent for BTs to get members online. If this was the case, had BTs asked for a better extention instead of denying our right to grant one, we would have granted it also.
Mauti himself was willing to grant an entire extra week/weekend, but the only message I heard from eight about this was a pasted version of the email mauti sent him. No request was made for more time. Not to mention, at the time this was recieved it looked a whole heck of a lot like a ploy to undermine the admins' previous rulings by asking for mauti to help out, when mauti wasn't aware of all the facts.

I hope I made sense. I will clarify some points if you have a specific questions.

Aramarth

Nah, Bucc, you wouldn't like what I'm sending them  ;)

And I still like you.....I might not like the ruling, but your personal integrity was never a question for me.

So in rebuttle from the logic posted by ARA, a clan can ask for a extension without consulting the other clan first despite deadlines being set in concurrence with a week's time going by?

let me know if I missed the gist of this.  But because they asked for an extention without us present with tons of time being passed it was okay for Monday?  And no they didn't notify us because I was present when they all just logged off without any discussion.  We waited until 12am Pacific for anything.  They never came back with an explanation and all of this was worked out by monday.

rgr that

For the record everyone...

This post is complete BS.  

Since I have screen shots of BTs being online, and even of BTs hosting a room titled "THERE IS NO WAY BTs IS PLAYING THE EXTENSION!!!!!!!", It was not a simple forfeit.  It was a flat out refusal Fusion.

For fuck sake BTs, the first CB went until way past 10, that's a CB which started at 7. Unfortunately, and I don't care if you disagree, I am not prepared to get into another potential 3+ hour CB on the last day of my break before going back to school. I don't intend to start off my first week feeling like shit. Games don't mean that much to me.

The CB itself:
I went into each CB telling each and every person to just leave all that hostility at the door and play the game for fun. I'll admit that the hostility in the CB itself was under control. Though, several things got to be about some peoples conduct:

1) Several people decided that when their clan was down to one person left they would hide this person through out the map in places where they can just hide and wait for the round to be declared a draw
2) Several people, who mind you had 50-100 pings, wouldn't shut up about "lag". Not that they even took notice that Typhy's ISP was bitching and he had a 400-700 ping.
3) Certain people took it upon themselves to start staying in the cell blocks of Prison the whole round.
4) Certain members of both clans wouldn't stop randomly insulting each other.

Those are some of the things atop of my sleep requirements that made me realize I wasn't prepared for 6 hours of CBing. If that is a crime oh well. A week of hell vs a game, I'll take my sleep.

I don't dislike BTs, I don't resent the admins, I just don't like seeing a clan name tarnished by propaganda. So be it if you think you should have gone through on Default BTs. If you really wanna win that badly, reconsider your surrounding lives.

Last note:
We didn't agree with the admins decision either time.
1) on saturday the decision to start the CB down 1 was BS to us, but we didn't bitch and moan and not play it out, we came back and won.
2) I couldn't have been in the 2nd CB nor 51 or snipe, but we were on as long as we could and waited.


Don't think this is one sided BS BTs, look farther than you're perspective.

Ah its still a forfeit ...... Its a problem with semantics......

1) anyone can ask anything, doesn't mean they'll get it or that it's right.
2) BTs was consulted very much before anything was decided, don't doubt that.


What you weren't present for were the PM's going on FahQ.  Which I started to get from Eight before MP5 even logged off.

I don't know if Eight is or isn't giving you the whole picture, but based on your posts, I'm going to guess not.

Thanks GS, that actually means a lot.

BTs was not consulted before any decisions were made... you guys came into my room and said we were at fault... and this is the new deadline...

So, the PM's going back and fourth don't count as consulting?  Ok, that's a new one on me.

Hey Bucc, did you read Aramarths post about MP5 requesting an extension? I know you know we didnt ask for an extention though...

Just wondering.......

Playing Season 8 without the BTs will be no fun. They are to many the best way to measure skills and many clans compare their results vs BTs to see what clan is the best.

I may not get along with all of them all the time, but I respect them a lot. Those are some damn solid players.

Although the BTs did behave bad on this event and have behaved badly before, I see them banned as a bad thing (no matter how  much they might have deserved it). The BTs play a LOT of cbs and banning them will have direct effects on the entire ladder. Don't punish the entire community for this fuck up. Instead, just remove them from the RvS finals and give them warning points for the next season. A lot of em, so that if they mess up again, they have to wait out.

Read his post about it, now, after this has all been decided.  Does that change anything I've said?  No.  Did I say they never asked anyone?

Did that say you weren't consulted before the decision was made?  Because I was in PM contact with both clans before the decision was made.  So were others, and that counts as consulting (since we were talking about it).

You were talking with Typhy?..... Since you were in a chat with mp5, did they not say they wanted an extention?

Acri, this isn't some sort of popularity comment. BTs was very inactive on the RvS ladder and their absence will have no affect on it. The GhR ladder is active "to the extreme" and may very well continue to be so. They are good guys, but I don't agree with what they have said about my clan, and them questioning the BL that built this community. Secondly, I totally disagree with the first part of your post, season 8 will be what each and every clan makes of it.

Since I like the guys in BTs, and don't want a argument within a argument forming, I wont comment on that "measure up to" comment.

Myst no arguement here but mp5 was 14 games in the RvS ladder... BTs was 10 games... second most active in the RvS ladder and over 60 cbs in all ladders...

You cant say we were inactive in that ladder... could u? or inactice in any ladder compared to any other clan for that matter...

No disrespect to *DAMN or the clans who competed in the Raven Shield ladder finals.  But my belief, BTs had a right to speak out on this issue, MP5 broke the rules and BTs was knocked out of finals for this. Then to make a bad decision worse Battle Tek Squad was banned after speaking out on the subject. This post is not to make a decision change, rather state my opinion on the issue. This will be a lonely season without BTs.

               ~Krush

By speaking out, do you mean defying rulings? I think the community is missing, for the most part, that BTs was banned for refusing admin decisions, not for anything over the weekend.

Ara

I agree also. BoC wont play in the finals either.

I suggest giving the title to c| (hard-earned, of course) and discussing new terms for how to avoid this in the off-season, this post is getting us nowhere, we're just all pointing out to each other what we've known since day 1 repeatedly.

If BTs had said they accepted the ruling, and then forfeited, would there be a different light shed on this situation?  I would rather them be vocal about their dislike of the extension ruling than simply accepting it, and then performing a quiet riot by not playing.  Whether they defied the ruling or simply forfeited while speaking up, it's still the same.  At least you knew how the felt about it the whole time.

.::|N| Noto

If BTs had said that they accepted the ruling, and tried to make it, fail or otherwise, yes, I think it would shed a different light on it.  But the intent to follow it would have had to be there.


I don't see it as the same thing.  I don't see it as only two choices either.

They can be as vocal as they want about thier dislike of the decision, and still abide by it.  That's an option you didn't mention.

They could also have accepted the decision, made the effort, yet not made it, which is not the same as the open defiance of saying there is no way they are going to try.

If you don't see the difference Noto, than we see the world in much different lights.

For those of you who believe that Typhy and MP5 are getting away with murder, I just wanted to make you aware that I will be meeting with him at our earliest convienience to discuss what probation will mean for him and his clan. After this is done, I will post the details in a new thread.

Aramarth

I seriously hope that by meeting with him, you mean you will be TELLING him what the rules of the probation are, not DISCUSSING it with him as if he will be getting to give you his input.

I am sure that is what you meant, right?

I don't think it is up for discussion what will be happing with MP5 at this time, other than by probation (not prohabition ;) ) we are talking about a 'no shit' policy, they are aware they are treading on very thin ice and that any issue that might involve the MP5 clan will be delt with accordingly...

I wouldn't be surprised if there were more disputes than cb's played in the Battle League.  I'd imagine most disputes are over scheduling, or technical bugs.  That should be understandable.  We're not full time players, cb's are played at any time of day, and we will never have full control over unforeseen glitches.  And most importantly, many of us are very competitive.  

With that in mind, you have to understand that there will always be some sort of dispute.  Our council of representative admins are the closest thing to fair yet flexible.  What's more sound than a variety of opinions, and leaders working together to find the most unbiased and reasonable solution?  The idea was to be democratic and that's what we have to tackle the inevitable.

There may need to be a provision at the very beginning while joining the league that states the interpreted rulings by the BL admins might not always be *perfectly* fair but will always be final in the best interest and fairness to the Damn BL **community.**

There are plenty of ways to settle and even avoid disputes between clans.  This should be encouraged so that we stop wasting everyone else's time.  Example: when it comes to important matches, there may be a foreseen conflict between two mediators... find a more neutral substitute within your clan.  We did this for scheduling matches with Core.  It might not have been needed, but we completely avoided any conditional emotions getting in the way.  And the games were great times (from what I hear), played in a very timely manner.  It was all decided on the battlefield.  If you want to be taken seriously as a clan, a certain amount of reasoning should be expected.  

Ssickboy (not an admin, just an opinion)

Couldn't agree with that more Ssickboy.

can we lock this too, my head hurts now and I think everyone has vented enough not to really care.

Thanks and see you in some fun games.

No hard feelings, man beer can make me nice

I don't think we have to lock it, let it die a natural death.

OK, fair enough.  Since both clans under the two that were disqualified say that they wouldnt play in their stead I can accept and relate to their disgust at playing in a spot that they were not rightfully meant to be.  I just think it's kinda sad that it has to come down to this.  to be honest I agree with Bucc wholeheartidly on the fact that both clans were in the wrong.   Srry, I know I shouldnt be getting involved with this but this decidion has made a serious problem with the rest of the ladders.  I can understand that people dont feel that it is right that the admins made their decision, but to be honest how can anyone that is not an admin get the full information of the situation.  I guess what I am saying is that this decision might not seem fair to others but because of how this was played out by both clans, they based their decision on the evidence (Which from what I hear there wasnt much to work with in the first place) and the issues that people were causing by flaming the forums, Gameranger, and posts on forums not related to the subject at all.  i dont pretend to have all the awnsers, but I dont agree that what was being done with all the serious flaming was right either.  

As everyone knows I am a hothead when it comes to others attacking my clan and I always will be.  But that dosent mean I dont have a line that I wouldnt cross, and if I have then I apologize for it no matter how much shit it makes me feel like.  It's the only honerable thing to do.  Sometimes I even take the decisions made, up the ass knowing that what I believe is correct but can do nothing about it cause it is the rule that is made.  This has happened to me many many times over the course of BL.  But a ruleing is a ruleing and I am not one to argue with the law that has been laid out.

The one thing that I do know about the admins is that they were all working as best they could with what they had and based their decisions on the actions and words that were said during and before this whole situation that they knew to be as fact.  People might not agree with it, but they are as clueless to what is going on as I am.  These admins that have made the decision have nothing to gain by this so I doubt that they would single out either clan for an attempt at clan extinction.  As a matter of fact we should take a look at the admins and admire how they were able to come to this conclusion knowing that in the real side of things they hardly agree much at all.  But it goes to show that even though their personal opinions differ, their sense of what they all think is right has not diminished.  
Trust me in this, the admins went thru some serious shit trying to come to some type of conclusion.

As for rules, well, rules are a guideline for all to follow.  In the end we must decide what is fair and just and make a correct decision based off of that.   Yes, that means that they cannot be one sided about anything and must try and base their issues off of the facts.  

Well, here is an issue in the end that could have been avoided if one of the two clans actually took the initiative to actually post some type of challenge on the DAMN BL instead of playing this He said, she said game.  If one of them would have taken the initiative to do this to post some type of challenge then they could have used hard physical proof to back their case.  In this issue I dont believe that there really was any other choice but to do what has been done.  And it's not like neither of these clans knew about posting CB's for both of them this season were seen doing it at one time or another to either challenge a clan or flame a little about one.  In either event they all know how the forums work.  Both could have easily solved this issue but both did not.  So as far as I am concerned this issue is at an end.  

As for withdrawing or forfieting as fusion said, well, I wouldnt recommend that one Fusion especially if you were trying to be able to come back next season and play as a team based off of this rule in BL which is the last paragraph of Rule #32 in the Finals section under General Rules of DAMN BL stating:

If your clan withdraws from a final game your clan may be banned from the next season.

Because BTs in this sense refused to play as was stated numerous times thruout this whole ordeal, then I can see where this result would happen.

I remember 2 seasons ago there was that ruleing that I dont see here anymore about if the clans could not play by a certain time then a schedualed time would then be made as a last ditch effort to get the cb done within a reasonable alotted time.  Remember this rule?:

Attention: in the finals you have to play! At the start of each final round each clan posts 4 dates and times at the BL forum where you have time to cb(at least 2hours). Then you agree to one date, time and number of players. If you can't agree an admin will decide date and time

This was taken out of the BL 1.75 back 2 seasons ago.  to my knowledge this is what was applied to this with the twist of the new rule about withdrawing.  Anyway, just another opinion.  Take it for what you will.

:MoD:Saberian

I feel that Saberian summer up allot of what this past week has been about. I would like  to appoligize to the admins. For making them spend so much time dealing with our bull shit. I also would like to appoligize to the other clans in the finals for you having to play eachother for a second time. I feel Mp5 and Bts were are fault and that the punishment was just for both clans. I look forward for the good times to come. Let this week rest in peace, and let Mp5, Bts, and DBL get along once again.

Even though I only stood by my guys decisions, I would like to take this time to apoligize to the *DAMN BL Admins and to MP5 and anyone else that wasted their time on this thread.

GL and HF in Season 8 Guys.

Cya in Season 9.

Deleting my post, as I was mistaken as to all that had happened.

(Though at least I admit my mistake)

dont post unless u have all the facts... we didnt even ask myst to join until he left mp5 with a fallout... we think he is a good player along with a bunch of u mp5 guys... instead of our competition picking him up we decided to.

through out all the events Myst has been top notch gent who all he wanted to do was play the game...kinda like what we wanted to do all weekend long.

 as for the premium? were just to old fashion an use netfone...

hi guys, i just wanted 2 tell BTs - when i got banned i had 2 deal with it and couldent do shit - i was like FU *DBL. But i realized it was my own Fault,  i 1st got bored of games, then 20 Days left of *DAMN BL Season 7  me and my friends started up fA][ - Fearless Assassins , Were Pretty Strong As i can see now.(and if civic posts here then also big). but i dont see any problem(s) with 20 - 21 Members.

But My Point is That i tried this b4, and it is sometimes good 2 be banned and sometimes BAD, u wont get blamed, and when i see folk flaming on *DAMN Forum or GameRanger, then i say 2 myself : mb it was good i got banned (a little break for me) - BTs, you can still own if ur not in *DAMN BL ;-) And you got my full support m8's

fA][Stripes - May The Best Team Win In Finals (c| vs !Core!)(z][t-vs MoD) - GL ALL ! Have Some Nice Battles Without Any Kind of bs - See you in Season (eight) hf ! - ps.. im not trying 2 flame here.

 ;)

Stripes --we already beat Core in the Finals.  I don't understand how this idea of c| having to re-eliminate a clan      
 from the finals was dreamed up.  Why should the punishment of two clans (BTs and MP5) entail the punishment of c| and bonus to Core?  We eliminated them and they were eliminated by us.  It seems against the very concept of the Finals to negate the only legitimate Finals matches played.  No one has yet explained to me the logic of this.  I am not the c| spokesman and would still ask this question if I wasn't involved in the issue as directly as I am.  Could there be a vote of all DBL members on this?  I am really confused still, and do not mean to cause any trouble.  Please enlighten me someone!  Thank you.  ???

Punnishment? ur afriad of core or something Psy? ... Well, i dont care if ur facing em i just readed it was core vs c| ... but w/e



 :D

w/e, i didn't miss it... but u cant always get ur way psy -



Im Out of this Thread :O)  ;)


Cu All

the community isn't saying that BTs have done nothing wrong, they just want a different handling of the situation.

me can't understand how you admins can oversee the broken rules on the weekend, then set a 24h(!) timer right in the most heated situation and be unable to forsee any complications by it. 24,01h BAN. if this is not banning for fun i dont know, and it shows (again) that (...) dbl-admins have a small scape/horizont.

and dont exclude ppl from this - the whole story is in this thread, so everyone is best informed in the issue.

This is starting to break down, so I'm going to go ahead and lock it unless another Admin disagrees with me.

But here's a final thought for everyone in the community.

I had a very long talk with Fusion tonight.  We went over the whole situation and discovered something very important.

Fusion, and most of the BTs clan was under the assumption that the Admins had more information that we were given.  They seem to have more information to give, but never communicated it to us.  Partly blinded by their anger over the whole situation before the Admins ever got involved, they left a lot of stuff out.  

We Admins discussed things that didn't seem to make it back to most of the BTs clan members.  So we too were under an assumption that they had more information then they did.

There was a large breakdown in communication.  I'm not saying that this information would have automatically changed any decision, that's not my place.  I'm not saying that the Admins were wrong, because they did consult both sides and did make the best decision they could with all the information they were given by the clans.

What I am saying is that everyone has to learn from this.  BTs was really pissed off.  They let that anger get in the way of working with the Admins to solve the problem.

Could the Admins have done a better job.  Sure.  Nobody is perfect and there are things that we will learn from this to do better next time.  

But if a clan is not capable of relating all the important information, when asked for and needed, then they really can't blame the Admins when they don't agree with the decision.  Well, obviously they can, but it's not right.

Fusion is working on fixing the communication holes, so all the BTs members know all the information, and there is no more miscommunication.  

I also accept Fusions explaination of how he was not calling the integrity of the Admins into question, but it was just an unfortunate choice of words, and that he didn't know some of the things posted in the Admin section that he should have.

For myself, I apologize to Fusion, FahQ2, Crypt, and Static for any lost patience or if I was being a dick about some of your posts.  I was under the assumption that you knew more than you did, and were being dicks.  I was wrong, and am sorry.  

Anyone hosting game, or adding tags to their name saying BL Sucks, or anything to that extent, you are being dicks, you most likely don't know close to all the facts, and you should really think about this message and where anger leads.  If BTs got screwed (and yes, it is an if) that it was more because of their own anger than any other reason in my opinion.  

BTW, that's all this post is.  It's not a message from the Battle League, or the Admins.  It is all simply my opinion as a guy more enlightened than yesterday.

And on that note:

(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/YaBBImages/adminowns.gif)